Wilson honors for all - how has it worked?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:first it was racism/that's racist now it's white fragility

terms used by people who can't win arguments and use made up words to shut down debate

So you believe that racism is just a made up word made up to shut down debate? How breathtakingly ignorant of you. Apparently you have never heard of slavery, 10,000 people killed by lynching, sundown towns, the dozens of massacres of blacks during reconstruction, redlining, housing discrimination, employment discrimination, Jim Crow, poll tests, grandfather clauses, ongoing wage, school discipline, policing and employment discrimination as well as all of the other facets of institutionalized racism I linked to above.

Congrats. You win the prize for stupidest post ever on DCUM.

congrats you play the victim card extremely well. Here's a tip instead of waiting for your reparations check try and make something of your life. It's 2019

my original point if someone uses racisim white privilege white fragility it is just a tactic to shut down debate and avoid having an actual logical conversation

Poster that you're responding do. I'm a white male in my 50s. I own a tech firm and have more money than I will ever really need, as will my kids. Housing discrimination, wage discrimination, voter suppression, unequal policing and all of the facets of institutional racism that i linked to previously are alive and well and getting worse in 2019. Your followup was not quite as stupid as your original, but close.

NP. Well, rich white dude thanks for for richsplaining struggles to the rest of us.

Here we are, a bunch of families who cannot afford private schools, seemingly fighting over incomprehensibly limited resources that force high-schoolers 4 grades apart to go to the same physics class. Half of them are calling the other half racist. Noting that we're in DC, an overwhelmingly liberal city. You KNOW that PP does not think that racism is just a made-up word. You KNOW that she has heard of all the horrors that have taken place in our country in the past. You also probably know that all she wants is for her kid to be taught physics at a level that will help him grow.

And that's when you seagull drop in to anonymously virtue signal and call someone stupid, twice.

+1. Well said.

Nobody here thinks racism doesn’t exist; we all know its pernicious effects.

The question is whether HFA repairs some harms of racism — which it is apparently is intended to do. If so, if HFA does, in fact, repair some harms of racism, then
(1) do the benefits outweigh the collateral negative impacts?
(2) is it the principal’s place to favor the needs of some students over others as a cost of pursuing a social or political goal?
(3) is their a more effective way to solve this problem, like adding more intensive support in elementary or middle school, changing the ‘tracking’ process to incorporate relevant testing, etc etc.

1) To #1 I think one data point that can get at this is the Wilson GPA chart broken out by race over the years since HFA was implemented. However, we would need to decide what are appropriate measures to determine this over time.

2) If one group has had most of the advantages in education then any principal should be compelled to try and create opportunity for those from groups who have borne the brunt of inequality. What evidence do you have that a particular group would suffer more from a program like HFA? I think there probably are some data points available that can get at the fact that white families will not suffer major consequences from HFA. Many not all, white families at Wilson have other social factors in their favor that would minimize any potential detriment that HFA might cause, primarily education, money and social capital. BTW even though you didn't use race in your post, that is clearly what you meant. I have more respect for people if they would just say what they mean and stop talking in code. I think we would get a lot further.

3) Of course that may be the case. Bring some solutions to the table. I do think waiting around for there to be an answer that satisfies everyone is not tenable.

I’m not “speaking in code.” I think the question is relevant on many vectors. For example, should a principal prioritize the need of pta donor families?

Principal Wilson draws a connection between HFA and race. IMHO, that’s a mistake. If there is justification for HFA, it has to do with inadequate prior experiences for some students, whatever their race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:first it was racism/that's racist now it's white fragility

terms used by people who can't win arguments and use made up words to shut down debate

So you believe that racism is just a made up word made up to shut down debate? How breathtakingly ignorant of you. Apparently you have never heard of slavery, 10,000 people killed by lynching, sundown towns, the dozens of massacres of blacks during reconstruction, redlining, housing discrimination, employment discrimination, Jim Crow, poll tests, grandfather clauses, ongoing wage, school discipline, policing and employment discrimination as well as all of the other facets of institutionalized racism I linked to above.

Congrats. You win the prize for stupidest post ever on DCUM.

congrats you play the victim card extremely well. Here's a tip instead of waiting for your reparations check try and make something of your life. It's 2019

my original point if someone uses racisim white privilege white fragility it is just a tactic to shut down debate and avoid having an actual logical conversation

Poster that you're responding do. I'm a white male in my 50s. I own a tech firm and have more money than I will ever really need, as will my kids. Housing discrimination, wage discrimination, voter suppression, unequal policing and all of the facets of institutional racism that i linked to previously are alive and well and getting worse in 2019. Your followup was not quite as stupid as your original, but close.

NP. Well, rich white dude thanks for for richsplaining struggles to the rest of us.

Here we are, a bunch of families who cannot afford private schools, seemingly fighting over incomprehensibly limited resources that force high-schoolers 4 grades apart to go to the same physics class. Half of them are calling the other half racist. Noting that we're in DC, an overwhelmingly liberal city. You KNOW that PP does not think that racism is just a made-up word. You KNOW that she has heard of all the horrors that have taken place in our country in the past. You also probably know that all she wants is for her kid to be taught physics at a level that will help him grow.

And that's when you seagull drop in to anonymously virtue signal and call someone stupid, twice.

+1. Well said.

Nobody here thinks racism doesn’t exist; we all know its pernicious effects.

The question is whether HFA repairs some harms of racism — which it is apparently is intended to do. If so, if HFA does, in fact, repair some harms of racism, then
(1) do the benefits outweigh the collateral negative impacts?
(2) is it the principal’s place to favor the needs of some students over others as a cost of pursuing a social or political goal?
(3) is their a more effective way to solve this problem, like adding more intensive support in elementary or middle school, changing the ‘tracking’ process to incorporate relevant testing, etc etc.

1) To #1 I think one data point that can get at this is the Wilson GPA chart broken out by race over the years since HFA was implemented. However, we would need to decide what are appropriate measures to determine this over time.

2) If one group has had most of the advantages in education then any principal should be compelled to try and create opportunity for those from groups who have borne the brunt of inequality. What evidence do you have that a particular group would suffer more from a program like HFA? I think there probably are some data points available that can get at the fact that white families will not suffer major consequences from HFA. Many not all, white families at Wilson have other social factors in their favor that would minimize any potential detriment that HFA might cause, primarily education, money and social capital. BTW even though you didn't use race in your post, that is clearly what you meant. I have more respect for people if they would just say what they mean and stop talking in code. I think we would get a lot further.

3) Of course that may be the case. Bring some solutions to the table. I do think waiting around for there to be an answer that satisfies everyone is not tenable.

I’m not “speaking in code.” I think the question is relevant on many vectors. For example, should a principal prioritize the need of pta donor families?

Principal Wilson draws a connection between HFA and race. IMHO, that’s a mistake. If there is justification for HFA, it has to do with inadequate prior experiences for some students, whatever their race.

Who are those students (overwhelmingly)? What caused those inadequate prior experiences?

[Anonymous]

We all know that it's very, very much harder for first generation college students to finish college. UVA didn't desegregate fully until the 1960. Likewise for UNC. At UNC, parties with Klan costumes and blackface were not unknown in the 1980 (just check out the yearbook from those years if you doubt it).

We all know that most middle class people have traditionally accumulated family wealth through their home. Restrictive covenants and other kinds of housing discrimination prevented black families from owning homes that would appreciate until the 70s, and housing discrimination continues in 2019.

Where are the black landowners who were kicked off the land where Ft Reno is now in the early 1900s?

When were DC schools desegregated, and how did the white community respond?

These are the roots of "inadequate prior experience."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We all know that it's very, very much harder for first generation college students to finish college. UVA didn't desegregate fully until the 1960. Likewise for UNC. At UNC, parties with Klan costumes and blackface were not unknown in the 1980 (just check out the yearbook from those years if you doubt it).

We all know that most middle class people have traditionally accumulated family wealth through their home. Restrictive covenants and other kinds of housing discrimination prevented black families from owning homes that would appreciate until the 70s, and housing discrimination continues in 2019.

Where are the black landowners who were kicked off the land where Ft Reno is now in the early 1900s?

When were DC schools desegregated, and how did the white community respond?

These are the roots of "inadequate prior experience."

The roots of the inadequate prior experience are far more complex than that. Middle-class AA families are relatively new to the middle class- there were very few of them just two generations ago. Unfortunately, typical upwardly mobile UMC behaviors, like reading for pleasure and turning the TV off so kids can read, aren't seen as much with AA families as whites and Asians, not yet. The black-white achievement gap can't simply be explained by housing discrimination and white wealth. Poor whites do a little better overall in higher education than equally poor blacks, and Asians do much better.

[Anonymous]

Historically, we whites have been very comfortable with the government acting in ways that disproportionately benefited one group:


"Between the Depression in the 1930’s, and the beginning of the Civil Rights movement in the 1950’s, billions of dollars were invested in American homeownership. The post-War housing boom was fueled by subsidized assistance to over 35 million Americans between 1948 and 1972. During these years, 11 million families bought homes and another 22 million improved their properties. The biggest beneficiary was defacto white suburbia, where half of all housing could claim FHA or VA financing in the 1950’s and 1960’s. For example, at the end of World War II the percentage of U.S. citizens that owned their own home was about 44 percent. In comparison, 2004 showed 76 percent of whites owned their own home, compared to 49.1% of Blacks and 48.1% of Latinos."

http://www.tracesofthetrade.org/guides-and-materials/racial-wealth-divide/blackwhite-inequality-and-the-home-foreclosure-crisis/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We all know that it's very, very much harder for first generation college students to finish college. UVA didn't desegregate fully until the 1960. Likewise for UNC. At UNC, parties with Klan costumes and blackface were not unknown in the 1980 (just check out the yearbook from those years if you doubt it).

We all know that most middle class people have traditionally accumulated family wealth through their home. Restrictive covenants and other kinds of housing discrimination prevented black families from owning homes that would appreciate until the 70s, and housing discrimination continues in 2019.

Where are the black landowners who were kicked off the land where Ft Reno is now in the early 1900s?

When were DC schools desegregated, and how did the white community respond?

These are the roots of "inadequate prior experience."

The roots of the inadequate prior experience are far more complex than that. Middle-class AA families are relatively new to the middle class- there were very few of them just two generations ago. Unfortunately, typical upwardly mobile UMC behaviors, like reading for pleasure and turning the TV off so kids can read, aren't seen as much with AA families as whites and Asians, not yet. The black-white achievement gap can't simply be explained by housing discrimination and white wealth. Poor whites do a little better overall in higher education than equally poor blacks, and Asians do much better.

What are the roots of that cultural fact? Nothing to do with segregated schools, black kids being routinely diagnosed as learning disabled based 100% on their race, most colleges being closed to blacks until my lifetime, and black kids being strongly discouraged if not outright barred from every single profession that required a college degree? Nothing to do with blackface and Klan parties at universities up until the time that I was in college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We all know that it's very, very much harder for first generation college students to finish college. UVA didn't desegregate fully until the 1960. Likewise for UNC. At UNC, parties with Klan costumes and blackface were not unknown in the 1980 (just check out the yearbook from those years if you doubt it).

We all know that most middle class people have traditionally accumulated family wealth through their home. Restrictive covenants and other kinds of housing discrimination prevented black families from owning homes that would appreciate until the 70s, and housing discrimination continues in 2019.

Where are the black landowners who were kicked off the land where Ft Reno is now in the early 1900s?

When were DC schools desegregated, and how did the white community respond?

These are the roots of "inadequate prior experience."

The roots of the inadequate prior experience are far more complex than that. Middle-class AA families are relatively new to the middle class- there were very few of them just two generations ago. Unfortunately, typical upwardly mobile UMC behaviors, like reading for pleasure and turning the TV off so kids can read, aren't seen as much with AA families as whites and Asians, not yet. The black-white achievement gap can't simply be explained by housing discrimination and white wealth. Poor whites do a little better overall in higher education than equally poor blacks, and Asians do much better.

This is not really accurate --- there was a nascent black middle class during reconstruction, which was wiped out by the rise of segregation and Jim Crow (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/31/books/review/original-black-elite-elizabeth-dowling-taylor.html). There was a black middle class in DC that was largely wiped out by Woodrow Wilson's aggressive re-segregation of the federal workforce (http://theconversation.com/how-the-black-middle-class-was-attacked-by-woodrow-wilsons-administration-52200).

The narrative that you are repeating is historical revisionism that attempts to explain away vigorous and largely successful efforts to decimate the black middle class. These are ongoing, and were seen in the 2009 housing crisis, in which black families were steered to subprime loans intentionally and ubiquitously, although not all banks were as blatant as Wells Fargo, where bank employees talked about pushing subprime loans to "mud people." https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/us/07baltimore.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:first it was racism/that's racist now it's white fragility

terms used by people who can't win arguments and use made up words to shut down debate

So you believe that racism is just a made up word made up to shut down debate? How breathtakingly ignorant of you. Apparently you have never heard of slavery, 10,000 people killed by lynching, sundown towns, the dozens of massacres of blacks during reconstruction, redlining, housing discrimination, employment discrimination, Jim Crow, poll tests, grandfather clauses, ongoing wage, school discipline, policing and employment discrimination as well as all of the other facets of institutionalized racism I linked to above.

Congrats. You win the prize for stupidest post ever on DCUM.

congrats you play the victim card extremely well. Here's a tip instead of waiting for your reparations check try and make something of your life. It's 2019

my original point if someone uses racisim white privilege white fragility it is just a tactic to shut down debate and avoid having an actual logical conversation

Poster that you're responding do. I'm a white male in my 50s. I own a tech firm and have more money than I will ever really need, as will my kids. Housing discrimination, wage discrimination, voter suppression, unequal policing and all of the facets of institutional racism that i linked to previously are alive and well and getting worse in 2019. Your followup was not quite as stupid as your original, but close.

NP. Well, rich white dude thanks for for richsplaining struggles to the rest of us.

Here we are, a bunch of families who cannot afford private schools, seemingly fighting over incomprehensibly limited resources that force high-schoolers 4 grades apart to go to the same physics class. Half of them are calling the other half racist. Noting that we're in DC, an overwhelmingly liberal city. You KNOW that PP does not think that racism is just a made-up word. You KNOW that she has heard of all the horrors that have taken place in our country in the past. You also probably know that all she wants is for her kid to be taught physics at a level that will help him grow.

And that's when you seagull drop in to anonymously virtue signal and call someone stupid, twice.

+1. Well said.

Nobody here thinks racism doesn’t exist; we all know its pernicious effects.

The question is whether HFA repairs some harms of racism — which it is apparently is intended to do. If so, if HFA does, in fact, repair some harms of racism, then
(1) do the benefits outweigh the collateral negative impacts?
(2) is it the principal’s place to favor the needs of some students over others as a cost of pursuing a social or political goal?
(3) is their a more effective way to solve this problem, like adding more intensive support in elementary or middle school, changing the ‘tracking’ process to incorporate relevant testing, etc etc.

Rich white dude here. Should mention that I'm also a Wilson dad. I agree with most of what you wrote, except for the bolded. I am not convinced that HFA is a good idea, but I think we need to acknowledged that HFA is designed to address the racial achievement gap. A bunch of the (apparently white) PPs on this thread have repeatedly made the following points:

1. The "common sense" approach used previously was fine (an approach in which some schools recommended zero students for honors).
2. We know racism was a problem in the past.
3. White privilege and white fragility are not real.

Until we white parents who disagree with HFA can approach discussions of the topic with recognition that:

1. racism is an ongoing problem TODAY
2. we are coming from a place of relative privilege
3. by and large, as a group we tend to be really uncomfortable talking about racism today and our role in it

I think attempts to come together as a community to address these issues won't succeed. To me, the rancor and craziness of this thread (e.g. folks saying that I'm a sock puppet for calling out blatant racism -- and Jeff, if you are reading this thread, feel free to weigh in on this based on server logs) illustrate point 3 above really clearly. We've gotta get past this in order to have the conversations that lead to your point 3.

You distort every point ever so slightly to create the adversary you wish you had so you can be the good guy. Typical privileged white dude yelling at not privileged white dudes to watch their privilege.

Racism is absolutely a problem today. It is not, however, the driver of 90% of the decisions or opinions that posters on DCUM like to call racist. In the rare occasions that one accepts that it isn't the driver, one brings up the definition of racism that makes it an institutional problem. Therefore if your statement or action isn't actively anti-racist or seeking equity, it is racist. That isn't sustainable.

I didn't see the PP you bullied say that racism and white privilege don't exist. She did say that they are used as just a tactic to shut down debate. Just because a baseball bat is used as a weapon doesn't mean it isn't also bona fide sports equipment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:first it was racism/that's racist now it's white fragility


Here we are, a bunch of families who cannot afford private schools, seemingly fighting over incomprehensibly limited resources that force high-schoolers 4 grades apart to go to the same physics class. Half of them are calling the other half racist. Noting that we're in DC, an overwhelmingly liberal city. You KNOW that PP does not think that racism is just a made-up word. You KNOW that she has heard of all the horrors that have taken place in our country in the past. You also probably know that all she wants is for her kid to be taught physics at a level that will help him grow.

And that's when you seagull drop in to anonymously virtue signal and call someone stupid, twice.

+1. Well said.

Nobody here thinks racism doesn’t exist; we all know its pernicious effects.

The question is whether HFA repairs some harms of racism — which it is apparently is intended to do. If so, if HFA does, in fact, repair some harms of racism, then
(1) do the benefits outweigh the collateral negative impacts?
(2) is it the principal’s place to favor the needs of some students over others as a cost of pursuing a social or political goal?
(3) is their a more effective way to solve this problem, like adding more intensive support in elementary or middle school, changing the ‘tracking’ process to incorporate relevant testing, etc etc.

1) To #1 I think one data point that can get at this is the Wilson GPA chart broken out by race over the years since HFA was implemented. However, we would need to decide what are appropriate measures to determine this over time.

2) If one group has had most of the advantages in education then any principal should be compelled to try and create opportunity for those from groups who have borne the brunt of inequality. What evidence do you have that a particular group would suffer more from a program like HFA? I think there probably are some data points available that can get at the fact that white families will not suffer major consequences from HFA. Many not all, white families at Wilson have other social factors in their favor that would minimize any potential detriment that HFA might cause, primarily education, money and social capital. BTW even though you didn't use race in your post, that is clearly what you meant. I have more respect for people if they would just say what they mean and stop talking in code. I think we would get a lot further.

3) Of course that may be the case. Bring some solutions to the table. I do think waiting around for there to be an answer that satisfies everyone is not tenable.

I’m not “speaking in code.” I think the question is relevant on many vectors. For example, should a principal prioritize the need of pta donor families?

Principal Wilson draws a connection between HFA and race. IMHO, that’s a mistake. If there is justification for HFA, it has to do with inadequate prior experiences for some students, whatever their race.

Yes you are speaking in code. Woodrow Wilson High School has racial/SES issues and both of these are intertwined. These issues play out in a range of ways some that are well documented and some the are more about the social environment at Wilson. One of the aims for HFA was to help reduce the racial disparity that exists with the numbers of students of color in AP classes. So to ignore race and pretend it doesn't exist makes this conversation exhausting.

What you are asking is how might a program like HFA benefit students of color and be a detriment to white students. Don't try to shift the conversation to be about adverse experiences kids had in middle and elementary school. I can't sit here and educate you on the reams of evidence around racial disparities in education. Just please understand that the narrative and sub narratives you are using to argue are the currency that keep inequities going. It's dangerous actually and I'd argue it hurts white students because they can read this thread, see what their parents actually think.

HFA is an attempt to try and address some racial inequities at Wilson. If white students are going to be significantly harmed by it, I'd like to see evidence of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You distort every point ever so slightly to create the adversary you wish you had so you can be the good guy. Typical privileged white dude yelling at not privileged white dudes to watch their privilege.

Racism is absolutely a problem today. It is not, however, the driver of 90% of the decisions or opinions that posters on DCUM like to call racist. In the rare occasions that one accepts that it isn't the driver, one brings up the definition of racism that makes it an institutional problem. Therefore if your statement or action isn't actively anti-racist or seeking equity, it is racist. That isn't sustainable.

I didn't see the PP you bullied say that racism and white privilege don't exist. She did say that they are used as just a tactic to shut down debate. Just because a baseball bat is used as a weapon doesn't mean it isn't also bona fide sports equipment.

What do YOU believe drives the achievement gap at Wilson? How would you address is? Do you believe a long history of unequal treatment of black people by civil institutions (segregated schools, closed professions, restrictive deeds, segregated public facilities, employment discrimination, government investment in homeownership overwhelmingly in white neighborhoods) has anything to do with this achievement gap or not? If not, what do you think are the causes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You distort every point ever so slightly to create the adversary you wish you had so you can be the good guy. Typical privileged white dude yelling at not privileged white dudes to watch their privilege.

Racism is absolutely a problem today. It is not, however, the driver of 90% of the decisions or opinions that posters on DCUM like to call racist. In the rare occasions that one accepts that it isn't the driver, one brings up the definition of racism that makes it an institutional problem. Therefore if your statement or action isn't actively anti-racist or seeking equity, it is racist. That isn't sustainable.

I didn't see the PP you bullied say that racism and white privilege don't exist. She did say that they are used as just a tactic to shut down debate. Just because a baseball bat is used as a weapon doesn't mean it isn't also bona fide sports equipment.

What do YOU believe drives the achievement gap at Wilson? How would you address is? Do you believe a long history of unequal treatment of black people by civil institutions (segregated schools, closed professions, restrictive deeds, segregated public facilities, employment discrimination, government investment in homeownership overwhelmingly in white neighborhoods) has anything to do with this achievement gap or not? If not, what do you think are the causes?

I don't have time to be an armchair sociologist. That's for rich white dudes.
I don't think cramming four grade levels in one physics classroom is a solution to a long history of unequal treatment of black people by civil institutions. Why would you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You distort every point ever so slightly to create the adversary you wish you had so you can be the good guy. Typical privileged white dude yelling at not privileged white dudes to watch their privilege.

Racism is absolutely a problem today. It is not, however, the driver of 90% of the decisions or opinions that posters on DCUM like to call racist. In the rare occasions that one accepts that it isn't the driver, one brings up the definition of racism that makes it an institutional problem. Therefore if your statement or action isn't actively anti-racist or seeking equity, it is racist. That isn't sustainable.

I didn't see the PP you bullied say that racism and white privilege don't exist. She did say that they are used as just a tactic to shut down debate. Just because a baseball bat is used as a weapon doesn't mean it isn't also bona fide sports equipment.

What do YOU believe drives the achievement gap at Wilson? How would you address is? Do you believe a long history of unequal treatment of black people by civil institutions (segregated schools, closed professions, restrictive deeds, segregated public facilities, employment discrimination, government investment in homeownership overwhelmingly in white neighborhoods) has anything to do with this achievement gap or not? If not, what do you think are the causes?

I don't have time to be an armchair sociologist. That's for rich white dudes.
I don't think cramming four grade levels in one physics classroom is a solution to a long history of unequal treatment of black people by civil institutions. Why would you?

You have time to type three paragraphs of totally ad hominem attacks, but not to discuss policy?

To answer your question, I have said a bunch of times that I doubt HFA is the solution. I do get why thoughtful, well meaning people support it. It has certainly already achieved one explicit goal meant to address the long history of unequal treatment -- namely getting more kids of color into honors and AP classes. That's awesome. Also, several posters have posted observational research indicating that de-tracking raised achievement levels for minority kids without lowering achievement levels of white kids.

However, other studies suggest that the results in big districts that have tried it on a large scale have not had good results (the Chicago study). It's important to discuss results like these and come up with ways to address documented unequal treatment and unequal results with the best outcomes for everyone.

What's not useful is strawman arguments about "cramming people into physics classes". As I understand it, kids who are multiple years behind will still have remedial classes available. And there will still be at least two levels of physics classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You distort every point ever so slightly to create the adversary you wish you had so you can be the good guy. Typical privileged white dude yelling at not privileged white dudes to watch their privilege.

Racism is absolutely a problem today. It is not, however, the driver of 90% of the decisions or opinions that posters on DCUM like to call racist. In the rare occasions that one accepts that it isn't the driver, one brings up the definition of racism that makes it an institutional problem. Therefore if your statement or action isn't actively anti-racist or seeking equity, it is racist. That isn't sustainable.

I didn't see the PP you bullied say that racism and white privilege don't exist. She did say that they are used as just a tactic to shut down debate. Just because a baseball bat is used as a weapon doesn't mean it isn't also bona fide sports equipment.

What do YOU believe drives the achievement gap at Wilson? How would you address is? Do you believe a long history of unequal treatment of black people by civil institutions (segregated schools, closed professions, restrictive deeds, segregated public facilities, employment discrimination, government investment in homeownership overwhelmingly in white neighborhoods) has anything to do with this achievement gap or not? If not, what do you think are the causes?

I don't have time to be an armchair sociologist. That's for rich white dudes.
I don't think cramming four grade levels in one physics classroom is a solution to a long history of unequal treatment of black people by civil institutions. Why would you?

+1

I will add that the main driver for the achievement gap of current students is not the remote history above. It’s been proven that it’s poverty and family support. We know these 2 things (socioeconomic status and family support) are the top 2 predictors on how well a student does at school. So don’t confuse the issue by bringing in remote history. Poor non-white students such as myself (highly educated) are able to close the achievement gap because we have parents at home who place a high value on education and support us. It’s just like families who live in ward 7 & 8 who send their children to better performing schools across the river. Although poor, they support and advocate for their children and instill the value of education. Just like kids from poor Asian families who do well.

What’s ironic is that Wilson is a high performing school and we know the only reason HFA is being pushed is political and the one advocating it here (who I believe is admin or part of DCPS) has already acknowledged that it’s for the poor kids and the middle class families will be fine because the school expects these families to financially supplement outside of school. This poster also tries to downplay the issue by saying there is not that many PARCC 1 incoming kids to 9th grade. How can you then justify that the majority of kids needs will not be met, and it’s OK for these families to scramble in finding ways to supplement? Putting these kids in HFA is not going to miraculously close the achievement gap. What will is addressing the issues related to poverty in elementary schools with more social workers, mental health staff, parent education programs, etc.. It’s not HFA in high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:first it was racism/that's racist now it's white fragility


Here we are, a bunch of families who cannot afford private schools, seemingly fighting over incomprehensibly limited resources that force high-schoolers 4 grades apart to go to the same physics class. Half of them are calling the other half racist. Noting that we're in DC, an overwhelmingly liberal city. You KNOW that PP does not think that racism is just a made-up word. You KNOW that she has heard of all the horrors that have taken place in our country in the past. You also probably know that all she wants is for her kid to be taught physics at a level that will help him grow.

And that's when you seagull drop in to anonymously virtue signal and call someone stupid, twice.

+1. Well said.

Nobody here thinks racism doesn’t exist; we all know its pernicious effects.

The question is whether HFA repairs some harms of racism — which it is apparently is intended to do. If so, if HFA does, in fact, repair some harms of racism, then
(1) do the benefits outweigh the collateral negative impacts?
(2) is it the principal’s place to favor the needs of some students over others as a cost of pursuing a social or political goal?
(3) is their a more effective way to solve this problem, like adding more intensive support in elementary or middle school, changing the ‘tracking’ process to incorporate relevant testing, etc etc.

1) To #1 I think one data point that can get at this is the Wilson GPA chart broken out by race over the years since HFA was implemented. However, we would need to decide what are appropriate measures to determine this over time.

2) If one group has had most of the advantages in education then any principal should be compelled to try and create opportunity for those from groups who have borne the brunt of inequality. What evidence do you have that a particular group would suffer more from a program like HFA? I think there probably are some data points available that can get at the fact that white families will not suffer major consequences from HFA. Many not all, white families at Wilson have other social factors in their favor that would minimize any potential detriment that HFA might cause, primarily education, money and social capital. BTW even though you didn't use race in your post, that is clearly what you meant. I have more respect for people if they would just say what they mean and stop talking in code. I think we would get a lot further.

3) Of course that may be the case. Bring some solutions to the table. I do think waiting around for there to be an answer that satisfies everyone is not tenable.

I’m not “speaking in code.” I think the question is relevant on many vectors. For example, should a principal prioritize the need of pta donor families?

Principal Wilson draws a connection between HFA and race. IMHO, that’s a mistake. If there is justification for HFA, it has to do with inadequate prior experiences for some students, whatever their race.

Yes you are speaking in code. Woodrow Wilson High School has racial/SES issues and both of these are intertwined. These issues play out in a range of ways some that are well documented and some the are more about the social environment at Wilson. One of the aims for HFA was to help reduce the racial disparity that exists with the numbers of students of color in AP classes. So to ignore race and pretend it doesn't exist makes this conversation exhausting.

What you are asking is how might a program like HFA benefit students of color and be a detriment to white students. Don't try to shift the conversation to be about adverse experiences kids had in middle and elementary school. I can't sit here and educate you on the reams of evidence around racial disparities in education. Just please understand that the narrative and sub narratives you are using to argue are the currency that keep inequities going. It's dangerous actually and I'd argue it hurts white students because they can read this thread, see what their parents actually think.

HFA is an attempt to try and address some racial inequities at Wilson. If white students are going to be significantly harmed by it, I'd like to see evidence of it.

There is a long history of racial disparity, and Wilson is not immune to that.

Wilson's mission, however, is not to correct history; I doubt that item is in the Principal's job description. Wilson is responsible, however, for educating *all* of its students.

The idea of HFA is to solve the problem that some deserving students get overlooked when tracking assignments are made by teacher recommedations. Unconcious racial bias is a huge factor here -- this is the Principal's focus. But not all AAs are mis-assigned, and, of course, there other reasons that students get mis-assigned too, like teachers presuming girls are less capable at or interested in science and math, or ESL, or LDs, etc.

So HFA or a similar effort does not need to be about race. If the goal is to make sure that no students suffer from "the bigotry of low expectations," then a solution to that would solve the problem for mis-assigned AAs as well as any other overlooked students.

The problem with making it about race is that the premise is then that since whites as mass unit descriminated against AAs as a mass, then it is okay to correct the problem by aiding AAs even if it hinders other groups. But Wilson is not solving society at large -- Wilson is educating individual students. All students should be challenged to their fullest extent, whatever their individual situation.

If the problem were defined as solving subjective, errant tracking decisions, then the solution designed would likely be as effective for those that program aims to help without being as blunt in its side-effects (eg, throwing students of all levels into the same classes).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:first it was racism/that's racist now it's white fragility


Here we are, a bunch of families who cannot afford private schools, seemingly fighting over incomprehensibly limited resources that force high-schoolers 4 grades apart to go to the same physics class. Half of them are calling the other half racist. Noting that we're in DC, an overwhelmingly liberal city. You KNOW that PP does not think that racism is just a made-up word. You KNOW that she has heard of all the horrors that have taken place in our country in the past. You also probably know that all she wants is for her kid to be taught physics at a level that will help him grow.

And that's when you seagull drop in to anonymously virtue signal and call someone stupid, twice.

+1. Well said.

Nobody here thinks racism doesn’t exist; we all know its pernicious effects.

The question is whether HFA repairs some harms of racism — which it is apparently is intended to do. If so, if HFA does, in fact, repair some harms of racism, then
(1) do the benefits outweigh the collateral negative impacts?
(2) is it the principal’s place to favor the needs of some students over others as a cost of pursuing a social or political goal?
(3) is their a more effective way to solve this problem, like adding more intensive support in elementary or middle school, changing the ‘tracking’ process to incorporate relevant testing, etc etc.

1) To #1 I think one data point that can get at this is the Wilson GPA chart broken out by race over the years since HFA was implemented. However, we would need to decide what are appropriate measures to determine this over time.

2) If one group has had most of the advantages in education then any principal should be compelled to try and create opportunity for those from groups who have borne the brunt of inequality. What evidence do you have that a particular group would suffer more from a program like HFA? I think there probably are some data points available that can get at the fact that white families will not suffer major consequences from HFA. Many not all, white families at Wilson have other social factors in their favor that would minimize any potential detriment that HFA might cause, primarily education, money and social capital. BTW even though you didn't use race in your post, that is clearly what you meant. I have more respect for people if they would just say what they mean and stop talking in code. I think we would get a lot further.

3) Of course that may be the case. Bring some solutions to the table. I do think waiting around for there to be an answer that satisfies everyone is not tenable.

I’m not “speaking in code.” I think the question is relevant on many vectors. For example, should a principal prioritize the need of pta donor families?

Principal Wilson draws a connection between HFA and race. IMHO, that’s a mistake. If there is justification for HFA, it has to do with inadequate prior experiences for some students, whatever their race.

Yes you are speaking in code. Woodrow Wilson High School has racial/SES issues and both of these are intertwined. These issues play out in a range of ways some that are well documented and some the are more about the social environment at Wilson. One of the aims for HFA was to help reduce the racial disparity that exists with the numbers of students of color in AP classes. So to ignore race and pretend it doesn't exist makes this conversation exhausting.

What you are asking is how might a program like HFA benefit students of color and be a detriment to white students. Don't try to shift the conversation to be about adverse experiences kids had in middle and elementary school. I can't sit here and educate you on the reams of evidence around racial disparities in education. Just please understand that the narrative and sub narratives you are using to argue are the currency that keep inequities going. It's dangerous actually and I'd argue it hurts white students because they can read this thread, see what their parents actually think.

HFA is an attempt to try and address some racial inequities at Wilson. If white students are going to be significantly harmed by it, I'd like to see evidence of it.

There is a long history of racial disparity, and Wilson is not immune to that.

Wilson's mission, however, is not to correct history; I doubt that item is in the Principal's job description. Wilson is responsible, however, for educating *all* of its students.

The idea of HFA is to solve the problem that some deserving students get overlooked when tracking assignments are made by teacher recommedations. Unconcious racial bias is a huge factor here -- this is the Principal's focus. But not all AAs are mis-assigned, and, of course, there other reasons that students get mis-assigned too, like teachers presuming girls are less capable at or interested in science and math, or ESL, or LDs, etc.

So HFA or a similar effort does not need to be about race. If the goal is to make sure that no students suffer from "the bigotry of low expectations," then a solution to that would solve the problem for mis-assigned AAs as well as any other overlooked students.

The problem with making it about race is that the premise is then that since whites as mass unit descriminated against AAs as a mass, then it is okay to correct the problem by aiding AAs even if it hinders other groups. But Wilson is not solving society at large -- Wilson is educating individual students. All students should be challenged to their fullest extent, whatever their individual situation.

If the problem were defined as solving subjective, errant tracking decisions, then the solution designed would likely be as effective for those that program aims to help without being as blunt in its side-effects (eg, throwing students of all levels into the same classes).