Camp Mystic reopening for summer 2026

[Anonymous]

Someone is working very hard to bury all of the negative comments or people expressing horror.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I watched some of the hearings. The investigator did a good job laying out the timeline and being mostly unbiased in her approach to the presentation and hearing. I send my kids to a camp here on the East Coast. It has a creek nearby. I've never once asked about flooding, and emergency plan, etc. I think the Camp Mystic tragedy has brought camp safety to national attention and that is good.

I don't think the Eastlands are monsters, but, by their own admission they did not have an evacuation plan (other than something maybe that existed only in Dick Eastland's head), and the culture created by Dick Eastland where he is the "boss" held other adults back from helping or even questioning his decisionmaking. Communication between the cabins and leadership was also lacking since no walkie talkies were kept in the cabins. Lack of a written out evacation plan and lack of communication devices contributed to the death of these campers, IMO. I would not send a kid to a camp they are operating.

I personally think if they had waited a year to announce reopening (and hired new operators to oversee day to day camp administration) there might not have been the same outcry.

They were encouraged by the families who want to return to reopen. The very people that one or two people are obsessing over. A lot of people wrote them letters begging them. It's all very weird, but no my circus and not my ponies and I think its doubtful any of this will even happen.

So what??

If 27 people eat at a restaurant and die of food poisoning, and 100 people write a letter to the chef "begging him to stay open," does that mean that the health board does not have an obligation to investigate and, finding criminal negligence, close the place down?

No one is saying that those things shouldn't happen to the camp.

That’s what the returning families think, eagerly handing over their kids and money to the same people responsible for last summer’s tragedy.

So what? It's not actually their call whether this happens or not.

Soooo, that’s what we are discussing. How bizarre it is that the families can’t see this. Hope that helps!

The families don't read this board. They do their own thing. it's actually funny that people here are crapping their pants that they have no say or control over this situation.

We aren’t talking to the families, nor do we think the read this thread. We are having a discussion.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I watched some of the hearings. The investigator did a good job laying out the timeline and being mostly unbiased in her approach to the presentation and hearing. I send my kids to a camp here on the East Coast. It has a creek nearby. I've never once asked about flooding, and emergency plan, etc. I think the Camp Mystic tragedy has brought camp safety to national attention and that is good.

I don't think the Eastlands are monsters, but, by their own admission they did not have an evacuation plan (other than something maybe that existed only in Dick Eastland's head), and the culture created by Dick Eastland where he is the "boss" held other adults back from helping or even questioning his decisionmaking. Communication between the cabins and leadership was also lacking since no walkie talkies were kept in the cabins. Lack of a written out evacation plan and lack of communication devices contributed to the death of these campers, IMO. I would not send a kid to a camp they are operating.

I personally think if they had waited a year to announce reopening (and hired new operators to oversee day to day camp administration) there might not have been the same outcry.

They were encouraged by the families who want to return to reopen. The very people that one or two people are obsessing over. A lot of people wrote them letters begging them. It's all very weird, but no my circus and not my ponies and I think its doubtful any of this will even happen.

So what??

If 27 people eat at a restaurant and die of food poisoning, and 100 people write a letter to the chef "begging him to stay open," does that mean that the health board does not have an obligation to investigate and, finding criminal negligence, close the place down?

No one is saying that those things shouldn't happen to the camp.

That’s what the returning families think, eagerly handing over their kids and money to the same people responsible for last summer’s tragedy.

So what? It's not actually their call whether this happens or not.

Soooo, that’s what we are discussing. How bizarre it is that the families can’t see this. Hope that helps!

So discuss what happens to the camp, but don't trash the families. Is it really that difficult?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched some of the hearings. The investigator did a good job laying out the timeline and being mostly unbiased in her approach to the presentation and hearing. I send my kids to a camp here on the East Coast. It has a creek nearby. I've never once asked about flooding, and emergency plan, etc. I think the Camp Mystic tragedy has brought camp safety to national attention and that is good.

I don't think the Eastlands are monsters, but, by their own admission they did not have an evacuation plan (other than something maybe that existed only in Dick Eastland's head), and the culture created by Dick Eastland where he is the "boss" held other adults back from helping or even questioning his decisionmaking. Communication between the cabins and leadership was also lacking since no walkie talkies were kept in the cabins. Lack of a written out evacation plan and lack of communication devices contributed to the death of these campers, IMO. I would not send a kid to a camp they are operating.

I personally think if they had waited a year to announce reopening (and hired new operators to oversee day to day camp administration) there might not have been the same outcry.

They were encouraged by the families who want to return to reopen. The very people that one or two people are obsessing over. A lot of people wrote them letters begging them. It's all very weird, but no my circus and not my ponies and I think its doubtful any of this will even happen.

So what??

If 27 people eat at a restaurant and die of food poisoning, and 100 people write a letter to the chef "begging him to stay open," does that mean that the health board does not have an obligation to investigate and, finding criminal negligence, close the place down?

No one is saying that those things shouldn't happen to the camp.

Uh, everyone who is sending their kids there is essentially saying that, as are the person (people?) telling posters to stop ::attacking:: those families.

Liar. I have repeatedly said stop attacking those families, NOT the camp.

You can probably tell by now that we are going to continue discussing the strange decisions of these families, over your repeated objections.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IDK why you're micromanaging this thread.

IDK why you are being a dick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched some of the hearings. The investigator did a good job laying out the timeline and being mostly unbiased in her approach to the presentation and hearing. I send my kids to a camp here on the East Coast. It has a creek nearby. I've never once asked about flooding, and emergency plan, etc. I think the Camp Mystic tragedy has brought camp safety to national attention and that is good.

I don't think the Eastlands are monsters, but, by their own admission they did not have an evacuation plan (other than something maybe that existed only in Dick Eastland's head), and the culture created by Dick Eastland where he is the "boss" held other adults back from helping or even questioning his decisionmaking. Communication between the cabins and leadership was also lacking since no walkie talkies were kept in the cabins. Lack of a written out evacation plan and lack of communication devices contributed to the death of these campers, IMO. I would not send a kid to a camp they are operating.

I personally think if they had waited a year to announce reopening (and hired new operators to oversee day to day camp administration) there might not have been the same outcry.

They were encouraged by the families who want to return to reopen. The very people that one or two people are obsessing over. A lot of people wrote them letters begging them. It's all very weird, but no my circus and not my ponies and I think its doubtful any of this will even happen.

So what??

If 27 people eat at a restaurant and die of food poisoning, and 100 people write a letter to the chef "begging him to stay open," does that mean that the health board does not have an obligation to investigate and, finding criminal negligence, close the place down?

No one is saying that those things shouldn't happen to the camp.

Uh, everyone who is sending their kids there is essentially saying that, as are the person (people?) telling posters to stop ::attacking:: those families.

Liar. I have repeatedly said stop attacking those families, NOT the camp.

You can probably tell by now that we are going to continue discussing the strange decisions of these families, over your repeated objections.

You can probably tell by now that we are going to continue to call out your disgusting comments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think if the shrieking harpy in here actually knew the families who send their kids to this camp they would rethink their very vocal stance. These extremely wealthy, right wing religious families don't spend a second of their day worrying about random elderly women in Virginia or thereabouts. Their kids will just go to another camp if it doesn't work out.

You’re dead wrong! We knew several children at that camp in that flood. One was a friend of my daughter’s a classmate. Their families care very much about others. These are not right wing people at all. Some are slightly right of center, some slightly left - none on the wings - ZERO! And they all care about others. Many families are still grieving, including mine. You should have compassion, especially as you are making assumptions about the compassion of others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched some of the hearings. The investigator did a good job laying out the timeline and being mostly unbiased in her approach to the presentation and hearing. I send my kids to a camp here on the East Coast. It has a creek nearby. I've never once asked about flooding, and emergency plan, etc. I think the Camp Mystic tragedy has brought camp safety to national attention and that is good.

I don't think the Eastlands are monsters, but, by their own admission they did not have an evacuation plan (other than something maybe that existed only in Dick Eastland's head), and the culture created by Dick Eastland where he is the "boss" held other adults back from helping or even questioning his decisionmaking. Communication between the cabins and leadership was also lacking since no walkie talkies were kept in the cabins. Lack of a written out evacation plan and lack of communication devices contributed to the death of these campers, IMO. I would not send a kid to a camp they are operating.

I personally think if they had waited a year to announce reopening (and hired new operators to oversee day to day camp administration) there might not have been the same outcry.

They were encouraged by the families who want to return to reopen. The very people that one or two people are obsessing over. A lot of people wrote them letters begging them. It's all very weird, but no my circus and not my ponies and I think its doubtful any of this will even happen.

So what??

If 27 people eat at a restaurant and die of food poisoning, and 100 people write a letter to the chef "begging him to stay open," does that mean that the health board does not have an obligation to investigate and, finding criminal negligence, close the place down?

No one is saying that those things shouldn't happen to the camp.

That’s what the returning families think, eagerly handing over their kids and money to the same people responsible for last summer’s tragedy.

So what? It's not actually their call whether this happens or not.

Soooo, that’s what we are discussing. How bizarre it is that the families can’t see this. Hope that helps!

The families don't read this board. They do their own thing. it's actually funny that people here are crapping their pants that they have no say or control over this situation.

We aren’t talking to the families, nor do we think the read this thread. We are having a discussion.

Mad that these families don't think like you isn't much of a discussion. The ball is in the camp's court now to see if they can resubmit their application and get their license renewed. it doesn't look likely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched some of the hearings. The investigator did a good job laying out the timeline and being mostly unbiased in her approach to the presentation and hearing. I send my kids to a camp here on the East Coast. It has a creek nearby. I've never once asked about flooding, and emergency plan, etc. I think the Camp Mystic tragedy has brought camp safety to national attention and that is good.

I don't think the Eastlands are monsters, but, by their own admission they did not have an evacuation plan (other than something maybe that existed only in Dick Eastland's head), and the culture created by Dick Eastland where he is the "boss" held other adults back from helping or even questioning his decisionmaking. Communication between the cabins and leadership was also lacking since no walkie talkies were kept in the cabins. Lack of a written out evacation plan and lack of communication devices contributed to the death of these campers, IMO. I would not send a kid to a camp they are operating.

I personally think if they had waited a year to announce reopening (and hired new operators to oversee day to day camp administration) there might not have been the same outcry.

They were encouraged by the families who want to return to reopen. The very people that one or two people are obsessing over. A lot of people wrote them letters begging them. It's all very weird, but no my circus and not my ponies and I think its doubtful any of this will even happen.

So what??

If 27 people eat at a restaurant and die of food poisoning, and 100 people write a letter to the chef "begging him to stay open," does that mean that the health board does not have an obligation to investigate and, finding criminal negligence, close the place down?

No one is saying that those things shouldn't happen to the camp.

That’s what the returning families think, eagerly handing over their kids and money to the same people responsible for last summer’s tragedy.

So what? It's not actually their call whether this happens or not.

Soooo, that’s what we are discussing. How bizarre it is that the families can’t see this. Hope that helps!

So discuss what happens to the camp, but don't trash the families. Is it really that difficult?

The two are related. And the most shocking part of the story is that anyone would want to return. That’s a huge part of the story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think if the shrieking harpy in here actually knew the families who send their kids to this camp they would rethink their very vocal stance. These extremely wealthy, right wing religious families don't spend a second of their day worrying about random elderly women in Virginia or thereabouts. Their kids will just go to another camp if it doesn't work out.

You’re dead wrong! We knew several children at that camp in that flood. One was a friend of my daughter’s a classmate. Their families care very much about others. These are not right wing people at all. Some are slightly right of center, some slightly left - none on the wings - ZERO! And they all care about others. Many families are still grieving, including mine. You should have compassion, especially as you are making assumptions about the compassion of others.

Be honest. The camp took a serious religious turn recently. These people are my friends, neighbors, and my kid's classmates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched some of the hearings. The investigator did a good job laying out the timeline and being mostly unbiased in her approach to the presentation and hearing. I send my kids to a camp here on the East Coast. It has a creek nearby. I've never once asked about flooding, and emergency plan, etc. I think the Camp Mystic tragedy has brought camp safety to national attention and that is good.

I don't think the Eastlands are monsters, but, by their own admission they did not have an evacuation plan (other than something maybe that existed only in Dick Eastland's head), and the culture created by Dick Eastland where he is the "boss" held other adults back from helping or even questioning his decisionmaking. Communication between the cabins and leadership was also lacking since no walkie talkies were kept in the cabins. Lack of a written out evacation plan and lack of communication devices contributed to the death of these campers, IMO. I would not send a kid to a camp they are operating.

I personally think if they had waited a year to announce reopening (and hired new operators to oversee day to day camp administration) there might not have been the same outcry.

They were encouraged by the families who want to return to reopen. The very people that one or two people are obsessing over. A lot of people wrote them letters begging them. It's all very weird, but no my circus and not my ponies and I think its doubtful any of this will even happen.

So what??

If 27 people eat at a restaurant and die of food poisoning, and 100 people write a letter to the chef "begging him to stay open," does that mean that the health board does not have an obligation to investigate and, finding criminal negligence, close the place down?

If a private school's or daycare center's actions or inactions resulted in 27 children's deaths, they would be shut down immediately in most, if not all states.

+1

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:No one is faulting the families of the girls who died last summer. We are saying the ones who plan to send their kids back this summer are certifiable.

This comment referred families asking for sympathy - so the families from last summer:
“And then those families ask for sympathy over foolhardy risk taking decisions.”

No, the comment was referring to those choosing to return. Read the two preceding comments. No one is faulting families for the 2025 tragedy. They are faulting the lax Kerr Co safety precautions for an area known to flood and the minimal safety plans and means of communication by Camp Mystic's leaders.

Where are those families asking for sympathy from you?

The posters arguing in favor of the camp opening.

So - not the families of returning campers? People saying don't judge have you flipping out?

Who is flipping out? Most of us (other than you) are in agreement that the camp should never reopen and those wanting to return are nuts.

That's fine but getting hysterical about it calling people names and saying (erroneously) that someone is demanding your sympathy seems like an overreaction.

You exaggerate and misinterpret, then run with your feelings. No one said 'demanding sympathy," and no one is hysterical.

Again, nobody asked for your sympathy. More kids in your own zip code will die in backyard pools or from not wearing a bike helmet this summer than some random girls in a freak 100 yr flood. Yet not much concern for the very real threat closer to home.

Again, and we’ve told you this several times: This is an anonymous DC-based discussion forum. We discuss what we like here, particularly on the Off-Topic forum. You don’t get to decide what we discuss, just because you don’t like it. If we want to discuss our thoughts about the parents trying to send their kids back to Camp Mystic or the camp leaders, we will. And we will do it any manner we please.

And we are free to tell you that you’re a judgmental busybody who should leave these poor families alone FFS.

We aren't bothering them. It's an internet forum. No one is forcing you to read our posts. It was and is a a national story with ongoing updates that we will continue to discuss.

And we will continue to call out your grotesque comments trashing the families.

Anyone that would trust the Eastlands with the care of their child, knowing what they know now, is severely lacking in critical thinking skills.

You don’t know anything about them.

Stop acting like you know everything about everything; you don’t. MYOFB.

We've read their inadequate safety plans. We saw their inability to answer basic safety questions in court. We know they had internal family conflicts and lawsuits over money. We know that in recent documents they still don't want to list camp structures as being in a floodplain. We know they were asleep when warnings went out instead of staying up and monitoring their campers' safety. We know they had no sirens or other way to communicate with their counselors. You can't tell us what to think.

What is this we crap? Why are you reading their safety plans?

Anyone who reads Texas news. Maybe you should.

I should read safety plans about a camp my kids don’t go to? What a strange hobby.

The tragedy of Camp Mystic and the hubris of the Eastland family is national news. As a parent who has sent my kids to sleepaway camp, I have discussed Camp Mystic with friends and read about it on this site. We are truly astounded by the greed of the Eastlands and their push to reopen the camp without basic safety plans in place. Imagine being a parent who sends their daughter back to this place?

Imagine being the parent of a child who almost died and who possibly watched their friends die last summer. You can't even begin to. Yet you pass your judgment on people whose shoes you've never walked in. I'm not the PP but I am annoyed by people like you who think you're so holier than thou and smarter than these dumb Texans and so much better than these parents. You can do whatever you want. Don't send your kids to Camp Mystic. No one is asking you to. But being a judgmental Janice isn't a good look.

This is a far bigger story and issue than Texas. Sorry, but when 27 young people die due to negligence of a century old camp, it puts camps all over the country on notice. That, in turn, affects millions of kids and families for years to come.

I don't care how we "look" to you. If you had an ounce of compassion, you would care enough about children and future campers all over the country to want this situation fully litigated and blame cast where it is due, to prevent something like this horrific tragedy from ever happening again.

I'm sorry you have such a hard time following the thread of a discussion. The PP was judging parents who would send their daughters back to this camp. That has nothing to do with the fact that this camp was negligent and that it shouldn't open again. You can't even see past your manufactured fury to understand the point that's being made.

Exactly.

Trash the camp all you want.

Don’t trash the grieving families.

No one is trashing the grieving families. They don’t want the camo to open either. The parents sending their kids back are a whole different story and we can think of them whatever we like.

WTF? They are also grieving families.

Don’t trash the families, a-hole.

It is not”trashing” them to say that they are making the wrong decision to entrust the Eastlands with their children, knowing what we know now.

Reasonable adults try to make the best decisions for their children. Those parents who are sending their children back are not. I hope their friends spoke up for their children. Someone needs to be looking out for them.

^^ Trashing grieving families

Their grief is obviously pretty short lived if they can't wait to get their kids back to this camp.

^^ so much ignorance and hubris -- disgusting

Ignorance and hubris is thinking the Eastlands can keep your child safe knowing what you now know.

I think the Eastlands must have never let your Texas family go to their elite camp, thus the vendetta. Which supposedly is about the kids but rings awfully hollow.

Lt Gov Dan Patrick of Texas summed up the situation and the incompetence of the Eastlands very well. You probably think he is waging a vendetta, too.

You bringing them up over and over again is completely bizarre. It's personal to you in a way you won't acknowledge and it seeps through your comments. You are obsessed with this and it's odd. There's no need to go psycho over any of this because it's all being handled anyway. We all can see they aren't going to get their license and this will end with a whimper and not a roar.

DP - this can't be brought up or stated enough and you are welcome to say it's completely bizarre. Not only should they not get their license, but the Eastlands should be criminally charged and never allowed to operate Mystic, or any other camp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched some of the hearings. The investigator did a good job laying out the timeline and being mostly unbiased in her approach to the presentation and hearing. I send my kids to a camp here on the East Coast. It has a creek nearby. I've never once asked about flooding, and emergency plan, etc. I think the Camp Mystic tragedy has brought camp safety to national attention and that is good.

I don't think the Eastlands are monsters, but, by their own admission they did not have an evacuation plan (other than something maybe that existed only in Dick Eastland's head), and the culture created by Dick Eastland where he is the "boss" held other adults back from helping or even questioning his decisionmaking. Communication between the cabins and leadership was also lacking since no walkie talkies were kept in the cabins. Lack of a written out evacation plan and lack of communication devices contributed to the death of these campers, IMO. I would not send a kid to a camp they are operating.

I personally think if they had waited a year to announce reopening (and hired new operators to oversee day to day camp administration) there might not have been the same outcry.

They were encouraged by the families who want to return to reopen. The very people that one or two people are obsessing over. A lot of people wrote them letters begging them. It's all very weird, but no my circus and not my ponies and I think its doubtful any of this will even happen.

So what??

If 27 people eat at a restaurant and die of food poisoning, and 100 people write a letter to the chef "begging him to stay open," does that mean that the health board does not have an obligation to investigate and, finding criminal negligence, close the place down?

No one is saying that those things shouldn't happen to the camp.

That’s what the returning families think, eagerly handing over their kids and money to the same people responsible for last summer’s tragedy.

So what? It's not actually their call whether this happens or not.

Soooo, that’s what we are discussing. How bizarre it is that the families can’t see this. Hope that helps!

The families don't read this board. They do their own thing. it's actually funny that people here are crapping their pants that they have no say or control over this situation.

We aren’t talking to the families, nor do we think the read this thread. We are having a discussion.

Mad that these families don't think like you isn't much of a discussion. The ball is in the camp's court now to see if they can resubmit their application and get their license renewed. it doesn't look likely.

The only person mad is you. This is just what we do - we discuss things like this. It’s been like this since the website began.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched some of the hearings. The investigator did a good job laying out the timeline and being mostly unbiased in her approach to the presentation and hearing. I send my kids to a camp here on the East Coast. It has a creek nearby. I've never once asked about flooding, and emergency plan, etc. I think the Camp Mystic tragedy has brought camp safety to national attention and that is good.

I don't think the Eastlands are monsters, but, by their own admission they did not have an evacuation plan (other than something maybe that existed only in Dick Eastland's head), and the culture created by Dick Eastland where he is the "boss" held other adults back from helping or even questioning his decisionmaking. Communication between the cabins and leadership was also lacking since no walkie talkies were kept in the cabins. Lack of a written out evacation plan and lack of communication devices contributed to the death of these campers, IMO. I would not send a kid to a camp they are operating.

I personally think if they had waited a year to announce reopening (and hired new operators to oversee day to day camp administration) there might not have been the same outcry.

They were encouraged by the families who want to return to reopen. The very people that one or two people are obsessing over. A lot of people wrote them letters begging them. It's all very weird, but no my circus and not my ponies and I think its doubtful any of this will even happen.

So what??

If 27 people eat at a restaurant and die of food poisoning, and 100 people write a letter to the chef "begging him to stay open," does that mean that the health board does not have an obligation to investigate and, finding criminal negligence, close the place down?

If a private school's or daycare center's actions or inactions resulted in 27 children's deaths, they would be shut down immediately in most, if not all states.

If a 100year flood wiped away the building - it would be a different outcome than you think. The question would be should that daycare be allowed to reopen in a safer zone - and the answer might be yes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched some of the hearings. The investigator did a good job laying out the timeline and being mostly unbiased in her approach to the presentation and hearing. I send my kids to a camp here on the East Coast. It has a creek nearby. I've never once asked about flooding, and emergency plan, etc. I think the Camp Mystic tragedy has brought camp safety to national attention and that is good.

I don't think the Eastlands are monsters, but, by their own admission they did not have an evacuation plan (other than something maybe that existed only in Dick Eastland's head), and the culture created by Dick Eastland where he is the "boss" held other adults back from helping or even questioning his decisionmaking. Communication between the cabins and leadership was also lacking since no walkie talkies were kept in the cabins. Lack of a written out evacation plan and lack of communication devices contributed to the death of these campers, IMO. I would not send a kid to a camp they are operating.

I personally think if they had waited a year to announce reopening (and hired new operators to oversee day to day camp administration) there might not have been the same outcry.

They were encouraged by the families who want to return to reopen. The very people that one or two people are obsessing over. A lot of people wrote them letters begging them. It's all very weird, but no my circus and not my ponies and I think its doubtful any of this will even happen.

So what??

If 27 people eat at a restaurant and die of food poisoning, and 100 people write a letter to the chef "begging him to stay open," does that mean that the health board does not have an obligation to investigate and, finding criminal negligence, close the place down?

If a private school's or daycare center's actions or inactions resulted in 27 children's deaths, they would be shut down immediately in most, if not all states.

+1

+100. And the owners/managers would go to jail.