Why do donut hole families

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The worst is when your income growth is very recent. My best friend, a single parent of 2, made low 100s most of career. Her career took off 2-3 years before the fist went to school and income quickly went to the high 200s. No FA, and no time to save. So her good luck with work is basically just going to the colleges like she never got the career boost (with the added benefit of a more stressful role and more hours of work)!

What’s wrong with income going up by exactly what you need to spend? If it were low 100s she’d still be expected to pay 30K or more and where would that come from? College is a bottle neck, and then she can celebrate.

This. After the kids graduate she can enjoy the money from the raises. Or, if she’s really that bitter about being expected to spend it, she can take a demotion. But she won’t because she also realizes she’s better off with the money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The worst is when your income growth is very recent. My best friend, a single parent of 2, made low 100s most of career. Her career took off 2-3 years before the fist went to school and income quickly went to the high 200s. No FA, and no time to save. So her good luck with work is basically just going to the colleges like she never got the career boost (with the added benefit of a more stressful role and more hours of work)!

They could save those two years. As your income goes up you don’t change your lifestyle and save.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a tough thread to read - i can sense the frustration in many of the responses.
We could not afford $80k per year (we saved enough to swing $60k per year) but still encouraged our child to apply wherever their stats might lead to a good chance of admission (sat 1560 gpa 4/4.8 etc). We did however insist that he apply in state and to several lower tier universities that offer merit aid.
He got into three schools we couldn’t afford without any FA (one with very modest merit) and all the lower tier schools with merit aid
One reason we allowed him to apply to the more expensive schools is because we weren’t sure what to expect wrt financial aid - turns out nothing.
We were open with him from the outset but it was difficult to watch him at the college visits and then working on the “why I belong here” universities, knowing that he was working so hard for a ticket we might not be able to afford. In the end he decided on the instate option and has not really looked back and I am also more sanguine about how things worked out. Like many people here I thought he would have the same opportunities we had at his age. It is what it is.
Maybe we should start thinking of top 30 universities the way we think about private high schools. It never occurred to me to want my child to attend Sidwell or St Albans or GDS. We couldn’t afford them and our high performing public school was just fine. The top private schools in the DMV provide their students with an excellent education, interesting experiences and wonderful opportunities for future advancement However, you can’t get in unless you meet their standards and can pay their tuition. Otoh they will make exceptions for students with hooks (legacies, talents etc). I wonder whether when my child is planning for his own children, whether we will think of top 30 schools in a similar way.

That's the point. You cannot afford it so your child goes where you can afford but if you can save $60K per year you are not a donut family and you are pretty comfortable financially.

We did not save $60 k per year, we spent a couple of decades saving enough so we could afford to spend $60k per year for four years But you are correct that we are pretty comfortable and ultimately we are satisfied with the quality of education our child is receiving and he seems to be doing well. We just didn’t fully realize at the time that some opportunities would not be available to him. Perhaps we were naive or perhaps tuition rose faster than our ability to change our expectations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a tough thread to read - i can sense the frustration in many of the responses.
We could not afford $80k per year (we saved enough to swing $60k per year) but still encouraged our child to apply wherever their stats might lead to a good chance of admission (sat 1560 gpa 4/4.8 etc). We did however insist that he apply in state and to several lower tier universities that offer merit aid.
He got into three schools we couldn’t afford without any FA (one with very modest merit) and all the lower tier schools with merit aid
One reason we allowed him to apply to the more expensive schools is because we weren’t sure what to expect wrt financial aid - turns out nothing.
We were open with him from the outset but it was difficult to watch him at the college visits and then working on the “why I belong here” universities, knowing that he was working so hard for a ticket we might not be able to afford. In the end he decided on the instate option and has not really looked back and I am also more sanguine about how things worked out. Like many people here I thought he would have the same opportunities we had at his age. It is what it is.
Maybe we should start thinking of top 30 universities the way we think about private high schools. It never occurred to me to want my child to attend Sidwell or St Albans or GDS. We couldn’t afford them and our high performing public school was just fine. The top private schools in the DMV provide their students with an excellent education, interesting experiences and wonderful opportunities for future advancement However, you can’t get in unless you meet their standards and can pay their tuition. Otoh they will make exceptions for students with hooks (legacies, talents etc). I wonder whether when my child is planning for his own children, whether we will think of top 30 schools in a similar way.

That's the point. You cannot afford it so your child goes where you can afford but if you can save $60K per year you are not a donut family and you are pretty comfortable financially.

We did not save $60 k per year, we spent a couple of decades saving enough so we could afford to spend $60k per year for four years But you are correct that we are pretty comfortable and ultimately we are satisfied with the quality of education our child is receiving and he seems to be doing well. We just didn’t fully realize at the time that some opportunities would not be available to him. Perhaps we were naive or perhaps tuition rose faster than our ability to change our expectations.

What opportunities? You could have taken out loans if it was that important to you. Lots of options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a tough thread to read - i can sense the frustration in many of the responses.
We could not afford $80k per year (we saved enough to swing $60k per year) but still encouraged our child to apply wherever their stats might lead to a good chance of admission (sat 1560 gpa 4/4.8 etc). We did however insist that he apply in state and to several lower tier universities that offer merit aid.
He got into three schools we couldn’t afford without any FA (one with very modest merit) and all the lower tier schools with merit aid
One reason we allowed him to apply to the more expensive schools is because we weren’t sure what to expect wrt financial aid - turns out nothing.
We were open with him from the outset but it was difficult to watch him at the college visits and then working on the “why I belong here” universities, knowing that he was working so hard for a ticket we might not be able to afford. In the end he decided on the instate option and has not really looked back and I am also more sanguine about how things worked out. Like many people here I thought he would have the same opportunities we had at his age. It is what it is.
Maybe we should start thinking of top 30 universities the way we think about private high schools. It never occurred to me to want my child to attend Sidwell or St Albans or GDS. We couldn’t afford them and our high performing public school was just fine. The top private schools in the DMV provide their students with an excellent education, interesting experiences and wonderful opportunities for future advancement However, you can’t get in unless you meet their standards and can pay their tuition. Otoh they will make exceptions for students with hooks (legacies, talents etc). I wonder whether when my child is planning for his own children, whether we will think of top 30 schools in a similar way.

That's the point. You cannot afford it so your child goes where you can afford but if you can save $60K per year you are not a donut family and you are pretty comfortable financially.

We did not save $60 k per year, we spent a couple of decades saving enough so we could afford to spend $60k per year for four years But you are correct that we are pretty comfortable and ultimately we are satisfied with the quality of education our child is receiving and he seems to be doing well. We just didn’t fully realize at the time that some opportunities would not be available to him. Perhaps we were naive or perhaps tuition rose faster than our ability to change our expectations.

What opportunities? You could have taken out loans if it was that important to you. Lots of options.

Exactly, which is what someone with less income would do, to pay for college. Maybe there's savings or cash flow for about 20K a year, with federal loans that makes in-state is doable with another 20K to pay after graduation. To say this is a problem of too much income is silly. It's just a decision to be made, and a painful expense for anyone who lives on a budget.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think people are upset about the real issue - that blank check student loans allowed colleges to increase prices in a completely predatory way that’s out of line with inflation and salaries. Instead of talking about that, they talk about being a donut hole family.

Another way to think about it is less sinister.

The amount available to spend on college (the financial constraints) limit or provide opportunities depending on your perspective. The availability of those resources impact demand which impacts supply and competition for those tuition dollars. The ability to borrow to attend school gives people choices that they may not otherwise have such as low income people and people that can pay for some but not all out of pocket. Limitations on what people can borrow are all paternalistic across a continuum and wherever you draw the line is going to limit someone’s opportunities. What if it is worth it to me to risk my future to pay for my child to go to the perfect college? Why shouldn’t I be able to take that risk?

I get it is a problem, but we also have to think about the consequences of our solutions. I would rather go after for profit universities or think about how to up the perceived value of low cost choices than reduce opportunities choices for those that want it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a tough thread to read - i can sense the frustration in many of the responses.
We could not afford $80k per year (we saved enough to swing $60k per year) but still encouraged our child to apply wherever their stats might lead to a good chance of admission (sat 1560 gpa 4/4.8 etc). We did however insist that he apply in state and to several lower tier universities that offer merit aid.
He got into three schools we couldn’t afford without any FA (one with very modest merit) and all the lower tier schools with merit aid
One reason we allowed him to apply to the more expensive schools is because we weren’t sure what to expect wrt financial aid - turns out nothing.
We were open with him from the outset but it was difficult to watch him at the college visits and then working on the “why I belong here” universities, knowing that he was working so hard for a ticket we might not be able to afford. In the end he decided on the instate option and has not really looked back and I am also more sanguine about how things worked out. Like many people here I thought he would have the same opportunities we had at his age. It is what it is.
Maybe we should start thinking of top 30 universities the way we think about private high schools. It never occurred to me to want my child to attend Sidwell or St Albans or GDS. We couldn’t afford them and our high performing public school was just fine. The top private schools in the DMV provide their students with an excellent education, interesting experiences and wonderful opportunities for future advancement However, you can’t get in unless you meet their standards and can pay their tuition. Otoh they will make exceptions for students with hooks (legacies, talents etc). I wonder whether when my child is planning for his own children, whether we will think of top 30 schools in a similar way.

When did people quit thinking of top private colleges this way?

The costs relative to HHI didn't use to be so high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a tough thread to read - i can sense the frustration in many of the responses.
We could not afford $80k per year (we saved enough to swing $60k per year) but still encouraged our child to apply wherever their stats might lead to a good chance of admission (sat 1560 gpa 4/4.8 etc). We did however insist that he apply in state and to several lower tier universities that offer merit aid.
He got into three schools we couldn’t afford without any FA (one with very modest merit) and all the lower tier schools with merit aid
One reason we allowed him to apply to the more expensive schools is because we weren’t sure what to expect wrt financial aid - turns out nothing.
We were open with him from the outset but it was difficult to watch him at the college visits and then working on the “why I belong here” universities, knowing that he was working so hard for a ticket we might not be able to afford. In the end he decided on the instate option and has not really looked back and I am also more sanguine about how things worked out. Like many people here I thought he would have the same opportunities we had at his age. It is what it is.
Maybe we should start thinking of top 30 universities the way we think about private high schools. It never occurred to me to want my child to attend Sidwell or St Albans or GDS. We couldn’t afford them and our high performing public school was just fine. The top private schools in the DMV provide their students with an excellent education, interesting experiences and wonderful opportunities for future advancement However, you can’t get in unless you meet their standards and can pay their tuition. Otoh they will make exceptions for students with hooks (legacies, talents etc). I wonder whether when my child is planning for his own children, whether we will think of top 30 schools in a similar way.

When did people quit thinking of top private colleges this way?

The costs relative to HHI didn't use to be so high.

DP. I went to in-state college and my parents went to in-state college. It’s eye-opening to me that people think their kids need to go to Top 30 private schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a tough thread to read - i can sense the frustration in many of the responses.
We could not afford $80k per year (we saved enough to swing $60k per year) but still encouraged our child to apply wherever their stats might lead to a good chance of admission (sat 1560 gpa 4/4.8 etc). We did however insist that he apply in state and to several lower tier universities that offer merit aid.
He got into three schools we couldn’t afford without any FA (one with very modest merit) and all the lower tier schools with merit aid
One reason we allowed him to apply to the more expensive schools is because we weren’t sure what to expect wrt financial aid - turns out nothing.
We were open with him from the outset but it was difficult to watch him at the college visits and then working on the “why I belong here” universities, knowing that he was working so hard for a ticket we might not be able to afford. In the end he decided on the instate option and has not really looked back and I am also more sanguine about how things worked out. Like many people here I thought he would have the same opportunities we had at his age. It is what it is.
Maybe we should start thinking of top 30 universities the way we think about private high schools. It never occurred to me to want my child to attend Sidwell or St Albans or GDS. We couldn’t afford them and our high performing public school was just fine. The top private schools in the DMV provide their students with an excellent education, interesting experiences and wonderful opportunities for future advancement However, you can’t get in unless you meet their standards and can pay their tuition. Otoh they will make exceptions for students with hooks (legacies, talents etc). I wonder whether when my child is planning for his own children, whether we will think of top 30 schools in a similar way.

When did people quit thinking of top private colleges this way?

The costs relative to HHI didn't use to be so high.

DP. I went to in-state college and my parents went to in-state college. It’s eye-opening to me that people think their kids need to go to Top 30 private schools.

You don’t know what you’re missing out on, to be blunt. There are job opportunities available coming out of a T30 that are simply not available if you’re not. Investment banking, management consulting (MBB, EY-Parthenon, Strategy&, Oliver Wyman), asset management, venture capital or top nonprofits.

[Anonymous]

Everyone wants the fun, Instagram resort version of college now. Go on TikTok, VSCO or Instagram. But that isn’t accessible for most people, so many beg, borrow and steal to access it. The kid at Montgomery College isn’t posting cool frat party pics.

[Anonymous]

There is no other good or service where the amount you pay is determined by the company selling it to you deciding how much they think you can afford.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Entitlement and status obsession. Middle class who pretend to not be status obsessed pompous snobs, but they are -- they just don't have the money to play. They put on this bogus public persona that they they're just regular modest middle class people but secretly they are seething and obsessed with social hierarchy and status.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a tough thread to read - i can sense the frustration in many of the responses.
We could not afford $80k per year (we saved enough to swing $60k per year) but still encouraged our child to apply wherever their stats might lead to a good chance of admission (sat 1560 gpa 4/4.8 etc). We did however insist that he apply in state and to several lower tier universities that offer merit aid.
He got into three schools we couldn’t afford without any FA (one with very modest merit) and all the lower tier schools with merit aid
One reason we allowed him to apply to the more expensive schools is because we weren’t sure what to expect wrt financial aid - turns out nothing.
We were open with him from the outset but it was difficult to watch him at the college visits and then working on the “why I belong here” universities, knowing that he was working so hard for a ticket we might not be able to afford. In the end he decided on the instate option and has not really looked back and I am also more sanguine about how things worked out. Like many people here I thought he would have the same opportunities we had at his age. It is what it is.
Maybe we should start thinking of top 30 universities the way we think about private high schools. It never occurred to me to want my child to attend Sidwell or St Albans or GDS. We couldn’t afford them and our high performing public school was just fine. The top private schools in the DMV provide their students with an excellent education, interesting experiences and wonderful opportunities for future advancement However, you can’t get in unless you meet their standards and can pay their tuition. Otoh they will make exceptions for students with hooks (legacies, talents etc). I wonder whether when my child is planning for his own children, whether we will think of top 30 schools in a similar way.

When did people quit thinking of top private colleges this way?

The costs relative to HHI didn't use to be so high.

The top schools were always full of wealthy families and some interlopers. Maybe financially they were more attainable a generation ago but far, far fewer people thought to apply.

I went to a large suburban HS out west, maybe 10/500 students went to privates. It was very notable, and basically learning at the end of senior year that a few kids came from privilege. One guy went to Yale turned out his estranged father was wealthy. One guy went to CMU turned out his grandparents founded an outdoor equipment company we've all heard of. One guy on the tennis team went to Clairmont then Stanford law, turned out he wasn't just into tennis but everyone in his family was ranked and his grandmother had played Wimbledon in the forties. One gal went to SMU, I don't know her family story, but her personal style was always out of place, 15 going on 30, too formal, so it checked. The rest of us went in-state. The people who went private were good students, but not the very top. Our valedictorian is now an econ professor, he went in-state honors college full ride, then Caltech for grad school. Boring to recount, just completely different from how applications go out at my kid's HS today.

So genuine question, when did we all decide to bum-rush the privates? and why do we expect it to be low-cost?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no other good or service where the amount you pay is determined by the company selling it to you deciding how much they think you can afford.

Because college is supposed to be a public good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no other good or service where the amount you pay is determined by the company selling it to you deciding how much they think you can afford.

So you think that Ivy degrees should be sold to the highest bidder?