Coalition4TJ’s request to block TJ admissions process DENIED 6-3 by Supreme Court

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Another idiot who doesn’t believe that a student can take the test cold and succeed. What’s your connection to TJHSST again?

Does seeing the format of the questions help at all?

It wasn't just seeing the format. Many claimed they saw the actual questions ahead of time.

That's a great reason to eliminate the Quant-Q. It doesn't explain why the process was gutted to the point that it's impossible to distinguish between a highly gifted kid and a somewhat above average one. They could have retained a baseline proficiency test, teacher recommendations, more substantial problem solving essays, credit for notable accomplishments etc. while still minimizing the impact of extreme prep.

Notable accomplishments of an incoming 8th grader (when apps are submitted) Much of that is parent driven and cost money that many kids don't have.

Way to pick one tiny detail and latch onto it as if it's the whole argument. So, why did it make sense to eliminate a baseline competence test, teacher recommendations and more substantial problem solving essays?

Also, no matter how you try to attach privilege to it, qualifying for AIME in middle school, winning a science olympiad state event, etc. all indicate a kid that absolutely belongs at and needs TJ. Kids who achieve these things should at least be vaulted over their equally privileged but less accomplished peers from Longfellow, Carson, and Rocky Run.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Another idiot who doesn’t believe that a student can take the test cold and succeed. What’s your connection to TJHSST again?

Does seeing the format of the questions help at all?

It wasn't just seeing the format. Many claimed they saw the actual questions ahead of time.

That's a great reason to eliminate the Quant-Q. It doesn't explain why the process was gutted to the point that it's impossible to distinguish between a highly gifted kid and a somewhat above average one. They could have retained a baseline proficiency test, teacher recommendations, more substantial problem solving essays, credit for notable accomplishments etc. while still minimizing the impact of extreme prep.

Well with people buying the test the quantQ didn't help differentiate between students either.

just a complete digression to dehumanise Asian kids.

No one is trying to dehumanized Asian kids. People just don't want access to expensive prep centers to be a significant factor to get into a public school. Pretty sure Asian kids aren't the one paying the $4,000 and trying to game the system. That's all on adults.

The prep center is just an excuse, a red herring to distract from the underlying racist discrimination against Asians. Parents, not just Asian parents, are all resourceful when it comes to the upbringing of their children. Even if you narrowly tailor a law outlawing academic prep centers and tutoring, as authoritarian China has recently done (it's true, look it up), parents will find some other way to raise their kids how they see fit - and some of them will go to great lengths to prepare their kids for a future in STEMP field and target a high school like TJ.

No I think it's an actual problem when the majority of kids being admitted attend one of these centers. This reduces the chances of anyone who doesn't attend. The allegations that one center even had test questions is also concerning.

Unless the prep center is doing something illegal or unethical - like cheating or bribery - there is nothing wrong with one center being successful at providing the type of academic tutoring that makes students successful at applying to a specific selective school. I'll keep reminding people of the fact that the kids who attend this prep school are a self-selected population. Kids don't just show up randomly at this prep center for general tutoring and then magically test into TJ. Kids show up there because they 1) specifically want to attend TJ and 2) already have the academic credentials that make admissions highly likely. I would wager that 100% of all kids who got a 1600 on their SAT, took a sample test from prior test sessions. Does that mean the availability of old tests gives an unfair advantage to kids who score 1600 on SATs?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Another idiot who doesn’t believe that a student can take the test cold and succeed. What’s your connection to TJHSST again?

Does seeing the format of the questions help at all?

It wasn't just seeing the format. Many claimed they saw the actual questions ahead of time.

That's a great reason to eliminate the Quant-Q. It doesn't explain why the process was gutted to the point that it's impossible to distinguish between a highly gifted kid and a somewhat above average one. They could have retained a baseline proficiency test, teacher recommendations, more substantial problem solving essays, credit for notable accomplishments etc. while still minimizing the impact of extreme prep.

Well with people buying the test the quantQ didn't help differentiate between students either.

just a complete digression to dehumanise Asian kids.

No one is trying to dehumanized Asian kids. People just don't want access to expensive prep centers to be a significant factor to get into a public school. Pretty sure Asian kids aren't the one paying the $4,000 and trying to game the system. That's all on adults.

The prep center is just an excuse, a red herring to distract from the underlying racist discrimination against Asians. Parents, not just Asian parents, are all resourceful when it comes to the upbringing of their children. Even if you narrowly tailor a law outlawing academic prep centers and tutoring, as authoritarian China has recently done (it's true, look it up), parents will find some other way to raise their kids how they see fit - and some of them will go to great lengths to prepare their kids for a future in STEMP field and target a high school like TJ.

No I think it's an actual problem when the majority of kids being admitted attend one of these centers. This reduces the chances of anyone who doesn't attend. The allegations that one center even had test questions is also concerning.

Unless the prep center is doing something illegal or unethical - like cheating or bribery - there is nothing wrong with one center being successful at providing the type of academic tutoring that makes students successful at applying to a specific selective school. I'll keep reminding people of the fact that the kids who attend this prep school are a self-selected population. Kids don't just show up randomly at this prep center for general tutoring and then magically test into TJ. Kids show up there because they 1) specifically want to attend TJ and 2) already have the academic credentials that make admissions highly likely. I would wager that 100% of all kids who got a 1600 on their SAT, took a sample test from prior test sessions. Does that mean the availability of old tests gives an unfair advantage to kids who score 1600 on SATs?

How do you explain the fact that despite a significant Facebook presence and advertising campaign, literally 100% of the successful TJ applicants from Curie were of South Asian descent?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Just another example of opportunity hogging by the UMC on display. All these parents would fight tooth and nail to keep AA kids out. It’s just like during desegregation but instead of spitting at the kids, you throw lawsuits. Gross!

This is just ignorance. This is nothing like segregation.

Sure, it's a total coincidence that letting AA students into TJ is the action that precipitated the lawsuit

I look at it a different way - the school board is led by a rich White person by the name of Brabrand. Brabrand has consistently demonstrated that when it counts, he has horrible leadership skills (see: pandemic response, for instance) - the hallmark of someone who got to where he was on political lines rather than on his merits. It comes as no surprise, then, that when faced with the problem of racial inequity, the solution he would push would (1) be illegal while still being allowed to proceed, (2) devalue merit as a factor, while emphasizing the importance of political factors, and (3) redistribute inequity rather than finding a way to address the underlying inequity. Of course any of those factors would prompt a well-deserved backlash, including from the Black people who've gone on record with their disapproval of the new system (I'm assuming that by AA, you didn't mean Asian-Americans). The idea that admitting more Blacks was ever the problem is a lie.

How many black people have gone on the record with their disapproval of the new system? I'm guessing very few. Also, do they speak for all black people? I'm black and I support the new system because I think TJ should serve all areas of Fairfax County. I didn't support the old system that allowed a situation where 30 percent of a class came from one prep center that cost $4,000+. Many people in Fairfax County of all races couldn't afford that. I, of course, don't speak for all black people but nor do the black people "who've gone on record with their disapproval of the new system." You pulling that out is like the "I have a black friend so..." argument.

FWIW, I'm Asian and completely agree with you. I also support greater inclusion.

But do you support greater inclusion implemented through racist discrimination?

I support greater inclusion through greater inclusion. This is a county magnet school. Not a private academy. Not a charter school. But a public school that serves the county. All quadrants, including north, south, east, and west of (pick one) Route 1, Route 28, Route 7, Route 50, etc.

It is NOT a County Magnet school. It is a REGIONAL Governor's School operated by FCPS. This should have a regional governing board as mandated by a statute.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Another idiot who doesn’t believe that a student can take the test cold and succeed. What’s your connection to TJHSST again?

Does seeing the format of the questions help at all?

It wasn't just seeing the format. Many claimed they saw the actual questions ahead of time.

That's a great reason to eliminate the Quant-Q. It doesn't explain why the process was gutted to the point that it's impossible to distinguish between a highly gifted kid and a somewhat above average one. They could have retained a baseline proficiency test, teacher recommendations, more substantial problem solving essays, credit for notable accomplishments etc. while still minimizing the impact of extreme prep.

Well with people buying the test the quantQ didn't help differentiate between students either.

just a complete digression to dehumanise Asian kids.

No one is trying to dehumanized Asian kids. People just don't want access to expensive prep centers to be a significant factor to get into a public school. Pretty sure Asian kids aren't the one paying the $4,000 and trying to game the system. That's all on adults.

The prep center is just an excuse, a red herring to distract from the underlying racist discrimination against Asians. Parents, not just Asian parents, are all resourceful when it comes to the upbringing of their children. Even if you narrowly tailor a law outlawing academic prep centers and tutoring, as authoritarian China has recently done (it's true, look it up), parents will find some other way to raise their kids how they see fit - and some of them will go to great lengths to prepare their kids for a future in STEMP field and target a high school like TJ.

No I think it's an actual problem when the majority of kids being admitted attend one of these centers. This reduces the chances of anyone who doesn't attend. The allegations that one center even had test questions is also concerning.

Unless the prep center is doing something illegal or unethical - like cheating or bribery - there is nothing wrong with one center being successful at providing the type of academic tutoring that makes students successful at applying to a specific selective school. I'll keep reminding people of the fact that the kids who attend this prep school are a self-selected population. Kids don't just show up randomly at this prep center for general tutoring and then magically test into TJ. Kids show up there because they 1) specifically want to attend TJ and 2) already have the academic credentials that make admissions highly likely. I would wager that 100% of all kids who got a 1600 on their SAT, took a sample test from prior test sessions. Does that mean the availability of old tests gives an unfair advantage to kids who score 1600 on SATs?

Curie prepared students for a secured exam using questions that they had to have gotten from previous students.

The vast majority of questions on the Quant-Q are multi-layered word problems, so for students to see questions word for word on their exams that they had seen previously at Curie suggests that materials were delivered to them in a way that was at least unethical.

Comparisons to the SAT are not valid here because the SAT is not a secured exam. No one has to sign an NDA after seeing it in the way that they do after seeing the Quant-Q.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another idiot who doesn’t believe that a student can take the test cold and succeed. What’s your connection to TJHSST again?

Does seeing the format of the questions help at all?

It wasn't just seeing the format. Many claimed they saw the actual questions ahead of time.

That's a great reason to eliminate the Quant-Q. It doesn't explain why the process was gutted to the point that it's impossible to distinguish between a highly gifted kid and a somewhat above average one. They could have retained a baseline proficiency test, teacher recommendations, more substantial problem solving essays, credit for notable accomplishments etc. while still minimizing the impact of extreme prep.

Well with people buying the test the quantQ didn't help differentiate between students either.

just a complete digression to dehumanise Asian kids.

No one is trying to dehumanized Asian kids. People just don't want access to expensive prep centers to be a significant factor to get into a public school. Pretty sure Asian kids aren't the one paying the $4,000 and trying to game the system. That's all on adults.

The prep center is just an excuse, a red herring to distract from the underlying racist discrimination against Asians. Parents, not just Asian parents, are all resourceful when it comes to the upbringing of their children. Even if you narrowly tailor a law outlawing academic prep centers and tutoring, as authoritarian China has recently done (it's true, look it up), parents will find some other way to raise their kids how they see fit - and some of them will go to great lengths to prepare their kids for a future in STEMP field and target a high school like TJ.

No I think it's an actual problem when the majority of kids being admitted attend one of these centers. This reduces the chances of anyone who doesn't attend. The allegations that one center even had test questions is also concerning.

Unless the prep center is doing something illegal or unethical - like cheating or bribery - there is nothing wrong with one center being successful at providing the type of academic tutoring that makes students successful at applying to a specific selective school. I'll keep reminding people of the fact that the kids who attend this prep school are a self-selected population. Kids don't just show up randomly at this prep center for general tutoring and then magically test into TJ. Kids show up there because they 1) specifically want to attend TJ and 2) already have the academic credentials that make admissions highly likely. I would wager that 100% of all kids who got a 1600 on their SAT, took a sample test from prior test sessions. Does that mean the availability of old tests gives an unfair advantage to kids who score 1600 on SATs?

Curie prepared students for a secured exam using questions that they had to have gotten from previous students.

The vast majority of questions on the Quant-Q are multi-layered word problems, so for students to see questions word for word on their exams that they had seen previously at Curie suggests that materials were delivered to them in a way that was at least unethical.

Comparisons to the SAT are not valid here because the SAT is not a secured exam. No one has to sign an NDA after seeing it in the way that they do after seeing the Quant-Q.

If there is cheating, then that's a different problem. The act of parents purchasing academic prep and tutoring is not the problem. To blame instances of cheating on prep and tutoring is like saying we should get rid of all government because some agencies or politicians are corrupt.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:NP. I understand both sides of the argument, and both have good points. But to me, the main problem is that TJ should never have been set up this way in the first place. TJ is publicly funded. It was always very questionable to set up a public school in such a manner that taxpayers have to fund with their property taxes but can't send their children there.

If any of the successful TJ alumni want to set up a private school to carry on the tradition, have at it. But to me, this has always been an inappropriate way to operate a publicly funded high school.

Uhhh, I pay for the school basketball team through my taxes and can't send my kids to play on the team.

+1 - Public schools spend a lot of money and resources on sports that are super competitive. My kid loves swimming and wanted to get into HS swim team, but couldn't qualify. All I thought at the time was my kid wasn't good enough. May be we should have complained that the kids who got selected in trials paid a lot of money for swim schools/coaches, swim team memberships that we couldn't afford i.e., time or money. Obviously we don't have the leg up in the game. Now I think its totally unfair and we should demand a quota for kids who are not 'prepped' for the sports and may be if my kid were given a chance and she would have done quite well - who knows?.

OMG, not this again. When will you grasp that sports are not the same as public education? The analogy is flawed. Please move on.

Right, sport superstars make lot more money than academic superstars . In addition, the main FOCUS/PURPOSE of public schools is to educate not sports.

Not sure I understand - So if something is a "main focus/purpose" then equity applies, but if its not the main focus/purpose we have a competitive merit based process for it? Please explain when merit should apply and when it should not.

No I think you misunderstand. All children deserve equal access to these programs. Not just ones whose parents can afford outside enrichment. Spots on the other hand have noting to do with school. As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't be something the county pays for but if they are yes they should provide equal access to all students. The NBA however can operate however it wants.

Depends on how you define "equal access". If you mean anyone can attend if they chose to, then that's an asinine contention. The reality of the world is that most "access" is the result of some prior choice or effort. A person can't start working at a federal job just by enrolling - they have to apply, they have to satisfy the requirements, and then they have to engage in competition against other candidates. There is a reason why the goals of free men in a liberal democracy were characterized by the Declaration of Independence as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness because no one is guaranteed the results they want just by showing up, but they are free to pursue it.

Why not let them try and if they don't maintain a certain standard, demote them back to their base school? That gives a year for them to try and make the cut vs. some highly manufactured application and test score that they've prepped for?

Normally, I might agree with this sentiment. My issue is that trying TJ for a year and then dropping back to the base school undoubtedly will harm kids significantly. They will feel like failures and have worse grades for college admissions than they would have had if they remained at base school. I think it's great to give kids a chance if you have every expectation that they're likely to succeed. It's morally questionable to push kids into TJ who aren't ready, just to score political points, and then wash your hands of them as soon as they struggle.

Some sort of baseline proficiency test and teacher recommendations would go a long way toward ensuring that kids are not being set up to fail.

But they know this going into it. And that's part of life: sometimes you fail at things. And no one is saying "push them" into TJ. You can go or not. I would agree with a baseline proficiency test before allowing them to try. But, if they pass that or meet the standard, and they VOLUNTARILY go with the expectations set out for them, let them try. It's a PUBLIC school and it should be open to that, imo.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Another idiot who doesn’t believe that a student can take the test cold and succeed. What’s your connection to TJHSST again?

Does seeing the format of the questions help at all?

It wasn't just seeing the format. Many claimed they saw the actual questions ahead of time.

That's a great reason to eliminate the Quant-Q. It doesn't explain why the process was gutted to the point that it's impossible to distinguish between a highly gifted kid and a somewhat above average one. They could have retained a baseline proficiency test, teacher recommendations, more substantial problem solving essays, credit for notable accomplishments etc. while still minimizing the impact of extreme prep.

Well with people buying the test the quantQ didn't help differentiate between students either.

just a complete digression to dehumanise Asian kids.

No one is trying to dehumanized Asian kids. People just don't want access to expensive prep centers to be a significant factor to get into a public school. Pretty sure Asian kids aren't the one paying the $4,000 and trying to game the system. That's all on adults.

The prep center is just an excuse, a red herring to distract from the underlying racist discrimination against Asians. Parents, not just Asian parents, are all resourceful when it comes to the upbringing of their children. Even if you narrowly tailor a law outlawing academic prep centers and tutoring, as authoritarian China has recently done (it's true, look it up), parents will find some other way to raise their kids how they see fit - and some of them will go to great lengths to prepare their kids for a future in STEMP field and target a high school like TJ.

No I think it's an actual problem when the majority of kids being admitted attend one of these centers. This reduces the chances of anyone who doesn't attend. The allegations that one center even had test questions is also concerning.

Unless the prep center is doing something illegal or unethical - like cheating or bribery - there is nothing wrong with one center being successful at providing the type of academic tutoring that makes students successful at applying to a specific selective school. I'll keep reminding people of the fact that the kids who attend this prep school are a self-selected population. Kids don't just show up randomly at this prep center for general tutoring and then magically test into TJ. Kids show up there because they 1) specifically want to attend TJ and 2) already have the academic credentials that make admissions highly likely. I would wager that 100% of all kids who got a 1600 on their SAT, took a sample test from prior test sessions. Does that mean the availability of old tests gives an unfair advantage to kids who score 1600 on SATs?

How do you explain the fact that despite a significant Facebook presence and advertising campaign, literally 100% of the successful TJ applicants from Curie were of South Asian descent?

The burden of proof of wrongdoing is on the person making the claim. Baseless innuendos are worthless and only reflect negatively on your character.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another idiot who doesn’t believe that a student can take the test cold and succeed. What’s your connection to TJHSST again?

Does seeing the format of the questions help at all?

It wasn't just seeing the format. Many claimed they saw the actual questions ahead of time.

That's a great reason to eliminate the Quant-Q. It doesn't explain why the process was gutted to the point that it's impossible to distinguish between a highly gifted kid and a somewhat above average one. They could have retained a baseline proficiency test, teacher recommendations, more substantial problem solving essays, credit for notable accomplishments etc. while still minimizing the impact of extreme prep.

Well with people buying the test the quantQ didn't help differentiate between students either.

just a complete digression to dehumanise Asian kids.

No one is trying to dehumanized Asian kids. People just don't want access to expensive prep centers to be a significant factor to get into a public school. Pretty sure Asian kids aren't the one paying the $4,000 and trying to game the system. That's all on adults.

The prep center is just an excuse, a red herring to distract from the underlying racist discrimination against Asians. Parents, not just Asian parents, are all resourceful when it comes to the upbringing of their children. Even if you narrowly tailor a law outlawing academic prep centers and tutoring, as authoritarian China has recently done (it's true, look it up), parents will find some other way to raise their kids how they see fit - and some of them will go to great lengths to prepare their kids for a future in STEMP field and target a high school like TJ.

No I think it's an actual problem when the majority of kids being admitted attend one of these centers. This reduces the chances of anyone who doesn't attend. The allegations that one center even had test questions is also concerning.

Unless the prep center is doing something illegal or unethical - like cheating or bribery - there is nothing wrong with one center being successful at providing the type of academic tutoring that makes students successful at applying to a specific selective school. I'll keep reminding people of the fact that the kids who attend this prep school are a self-selected population. Kids don't just show up randomly at this prep center for general tutoring and then magically test into TJ. Kids show up there because they 1) specifically want to attend TJ and 2) already have the academic credentials that make admissions highly likely. I would wager that 100% of all kids who got a 1600 on their SAT, took a sample test from prior test sessions. Does that mean the availability of old tests gives an unfair advantage to kids who score 1600 on SATs?

Curie prepared students for a secured exam using questions that they had to have gotten from previous students.

The vast majority of questions on the Quant-Q are multi-layered word problems, so for students to see questions word for word on their exams that they had seen previously at Curie suggests that materials were delivered to them in a way that was at least unethical.

Comparisons to the SAT are not valid here because the SAT is not a secured exam. No one has to sign an NDA after seeing it in the way that they do after seeing the Quant-Q.

If there is cheating, then that's a different problem. The act of parents purchasing academic prep and tutoring is not the problem. To blame instances of cheating on prep and tutoring is like saying we should get rid of all government because some agencies or politicians are corrupt.

I agree that the act of parents purchasing academic prep and tutoring is not the problem. Creating admission systems where doing so confers an advantage to those who do is a problem.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another idiot who doesn’t believe that a student can take the test cold and succeed. What’s your connection to TJHSST again?

Does seeing the format of the questions help at all?

It wasn't just seeing the format. Many claimed they saw the actual questions ahead of time.

That's a great reason to eliminate the Quant-Q. It doesn't explain why the process was gutted to the point that it's impossible to distinguish between a highly gifted kid and a somewhat above average one. They could have retained a baseline proficiency test, teacher recommendations, more substantial problem solving essays, credit for notable accomplishments etc. while still minimizing the impact of extreme prep.

Well with people buying the test the quantQ didn't help differentiate between students either.

just a complete digression to dehumanise Asian kids.

No one is trying to dehumanized Asian kids. People just don't want access to expensive prep centers to be a significant factor to get into a public school. Pretty sure Asian kids aren't the one paying the $4,000 and trying to game the system. That's all on adults.

The prep center is just an excuse, a red herring to distract from the underlying racist discrimination against Asians. Parents, not just Asian parents, are all resourceful when it comes to the upbringing of their children. Even if you narrowly tailor a law outlawing academic prep centers and tutoring, as authoritarian China has recently done (it's true, look it up), parents will find some other way to raise their kids how they see fit - and some of them will go to great lengths to prepare their kids for a future in STEMP field and target a high school like TJ.

No I think it's an actual problem when the majority of kids being admitted attend one of these centers. This reduces the chances of anyone who doesn't attend. The allegations that one center even had test questions is also concerning.

Unless the prep center is doing something illegal or unethical - like cheating or bribery - there is nothing wrong with one center being successful at providing the type of academic tutoring that makes students successful at applying to a specific selective school. I'll keep reminding people of the fact that the kids who attend this prep school are a self-selected population. Kids don't just show up randomly at this prep center for general tutoring and then magically test into TJ. Kids show up there because they 1) specifically want to attend TJ and 2) already have the academic credentials that make admissions highly likely. I would wager that 100% of all kids who got a 1600 on their SAT, took a sample test from prior test sessions. Does that mean the availability of old tests gives an unfair advantage to kids who score 1600 on SATs?

How do you explain the fact that despite a significant Facebook presence and advertising campaign, literally 100% of the successful TJ applicants from Curie were of South Asian descent?

The burden of proof of wrongdoing is on the person making the claim. Baseless innuendos are worthless and only reflect negatively on your character.

What claim are you arguing? I presented a fact that Curie confirmed when they posted the first and last names of all of their successful TJ, AOS, and AET applicants for the classes of 2022, 2023, and 2024 and literally ALL of them were of South Asian descent.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:PP. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I just want to take a 50,000 ft view of the issues being debated here. The fact that the current Supreme Court, as conservative as they are. still let the new admissions policy stand should be a signal that the war is lost. Even if there will still be changes to the new admissions system, it seems highly unlikely to ever go back to the way it was.

I sympathize with the old admissions system, but I also don't think it was ever appropriate to set up a public school in this way. This is what private schools should be for. A private school can offer financial aid to those who can't afford it.

I also think all TJ parents need to take a step back and consider whether TJ is really the best thing for their kids. Having so many high-achieving kids clumped together in that school actually makes it harder for them to be accepted to a top school. MIT isn't going to admit 50 TJ kids in any given year. It is very much harder to stand out there. I get that iron sharpens iron, but it also comes with a significant risk of having nothing to show for all the effort than if they had just gone to their local high school.

I married into an Asian family, and I know that many times the drive to go TJ is from the parents who demand the kids to go to the "best" school or the "prestigious" school without considering that it is more than likely not going to be the big stepping stone they think it will be. Even the guy who wrote the op-ed in the Washington Post, while I respect his accomplishments, he could gotten into the Naval Academy and had all his success coming from any of the other excellent public schools in the area, because kids do it all the time. It's not like he invented the iPhone or made the next major scientific discovery, which is what the intense nature of TJ would lead one to believe is going to happen.

You must be high. I also don't have a dog in this fight but it's not clear at all that this racist admissions policy will be allowed to stand in the long term. Roberts has been very vocal about his negative view on affirmative action and any other racially motificated government policies that discriminate on the basis of race, even if it is done through proxies of facially neutral measures. Note that the Supreme Court's decision on the application to vacate is not a ruling on the merits of the case, but consideration of procedural/administrative issues. In this case, I suspect that Roberts, Barrett, and Kavanaugh considered the potential impact on the current batch of students if the stay was vacated, because FCPS did not prepare for an alternative admission process. Despite concerns of students having their constitutional rights violated by the new admissions policy, the courts, including SCOTUS, tend to let existing procedures stand unless there was some serious procedural error made in the appeals court.

Now, onto the rest of your points. I don't understand why you find selectivity to be an issue for publicly funded educational institutions. Are you saying there should be no public colleges, and that if we do have public colleges, every single one of them should admit every student that applies? Aside from admissions, there are a lot of achievement-based opportunities and privileges even inside any given public high school. A student doesn't go into the next level of higher math until they've achieved a sufficient grade in a prerequisite class. Just because the bar is often set fairly low doesn't change the fact that there is a bar, and that failing students do not advance. Being able to take the next level class is not automatic, but an earned privilege that is the outcome of some prior achievement. Being able to get into TJ based on demonstrated merit is the same concept in this sense.

The rest of your rationalizing about whether TJ is healthy or unhealthy, and the existence of alternatives is relevant to exactly one person: you. These are subjective opinions and are no more valid than any one else's, including those of parents who find that the rigor of TJ is a great fit for their kids, and that it is the place where their kids can obtain a superior education and be exceptionally well prepared for future studies and professional work in STEM fields.

Lastly, none of what you wrote, regardless of the underlying logic and passion, excuses the fact that the new admissions policy was implemented with racist intent and effect. Shame on you for making excuses for its continued existence.

Well said!

It's not racist to want to include a broader cross section of Fairfax County. Basically anything that reduced Asian representation would be called racist. That people think there can't be a change in policy the might change the racial composition of TJ so Asians aren't 60-70 percent of the school indefinitely seems crazy. It's a public school and its admissions should not be skewed toward people who can afford $4,000 test prep centers. Then those who pay for those prep centers claim their kids are just inherently more intelligent and so more deserving than other kids who don't score as high on the test without equivalent prep. If your kid is so inherently bright, they'll succeed anywhere. Why all the angst?

If that "broader cross section" is done on the basis of race, it is racist and illegal per our laws. Go ask black people "why all the angst" when they were raging against the racist laws during the civil rights movement.

The new policy does not mention race. It's based on allocation slots to various middle schools and a lottery.

For the n-th time for the benefit of the ignorant - facially neutral policies implemented with racist intent are still illegal.

Wanting to serve a broader cross section of the county isn't racist. It's valid to want more kids from each MS admitted to TJ. Asian kids from all middle schools are given the same opportunity as everyone else under the new system.

Facially neutral policies that discriminate are still discrimination. I think others have covered this here. But part of what they look at are the demographics. Who is screened in/out vs. representation in the population. I have no idea how this will come out but I do think Asians could potentially lose on this. They are, based on what I've seen, over-represented vs. the FCPS population. Opening it up to other under-represented groups seems like it could be sanctioned by the courts. Of course, there are many wrinkles but, GENERALLY speaking, I think the new standards will stand.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Another idiot who doesn’t believe that a student can take the test cold and succeed. What’s your connection to TJHSST again?

Does seeing the format of the questions help at all?

It wasn't just seeing the format. Many claimed they saw the actual questions ahead of time.

That's a great reason to eliminate the Quant-Q. It doesn't explain why the process was gutted to the point that it's impossible to distinguish between a highly gifted kid and a somewhat above average one. They could have retained a baseline proficiency test, teacher recommendations, more substantial problem solving essays, credit for notable accomplishments etc. while still minimizing the impact of extreme prep.

Well with people buying the test the quantQ didn't help differentiate between students either.

just a complete digression to dehumanise Asian kids.

No one is trying to dehumanized Asian kids. People just don't want access to expensive prep centers to be a significant factor to get into a public school. Pretty sure Asian kids aren't the one paying the $4,000 and trying to game the system. That's all on adults.

The prep center is just an excuse, a red herring to distract from the underlying racist discrimination against Asians. Parents, not just Asian parents, are all resourceful when it comes to the upbringing of their children. Even if you narrowly tailor a law outlawing academic prep centers and tutoring, as authoritarian China has recently done (it's true, look it up), parents will find some other way to raise their kids how they see fit - and some of them will go to great lengths to prepare their kids for a future in STEMP field and target a high school like TJ.

No I think it's an actual problem when the majority of kids being admitted attend one of these centers. This reduces the chances of anyone who doesn't attend. The allegations that one center even had test questions is also concerning.

Unless the prep center is doing something illegal or unethical - like cheating or bribery - there is nothing wrong with one center being successful at providing the type of academic tutoring that makes students successful at applying to a specific selective school. I'll keep reminding people of the fact that the kids who attend this prep school are a self-selected population. Kids don't just show up randomly at this prep center for general tutoring and then magically test into TJ. Kids show up there because they 1) specifically want to attend TJ and 2) already have the academic credentials that make admissions highly likely. I would wager that 100% of all kids who got a 1600 on their SAT, took a sample test from prior test sessions. Does that mean the availability of old tests gives an unfair advantage to kids who score 1600 on SATs?

Curie prepared students for a secured exam using questions that they had to have gotten from previous students.

The vast majority of questions on the Quant-Q are multi-layered word problems, so for students to see questions word for word on their exams that they had seen previously at Curie suggests that materials were delivered to them in a way that was at least unethical.

Comparisons to the SAT are not valid here because the SAT is not a secured exam. No one has to sign an NDA after seeing it in the way that they do after seeing the Quant-Q.

If there is cheating, then that's a different problem. The act of parents purchasing academic prep and tutoring is not the problem. To blame instances of cheating on prep and tutoring is like saying we should get rid of all government because some agencies or politicians are corrupt.

I agree that prepped students have an unfair advantage over the up prepped. Prepping is extremely common in any sort of competition, be it education, sports and life in general. It is a human (or animal) nature continuously look for ways to gain advantage over each other. Its just the way of life. But, it is not appropriate to blame the students of cheating as they did nothing wrong by attending any prep classes. If there is something illegal, then it should be punished, otherwise, you have no right to blame the kids. I am sure if there was a legal case for punishment, it would have been pursued by now. Even the current TJ screening can be prepped - tutoring to improve grades, take special writing classes for essays etc.

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Anonymous wrote:NP. I understand both sides of the argument, and both have good points. But to me, the main problem is that TJ should never have been set up this way in the first place. TJ is publicly funded. It was always very questionable to set up a public school in such a manner that taxpayers have to fund with their property taxes but can't send their children there.

If any of the successful TJ alumni want to set up a private school to carry on the tradition, have at it. But to me, this has always been an inappropriate way to operate a publicly funded high school.

Uhhh, I pay for the school basketball team through my taxes and can't send my kids to play on the team.

+1 - Public schools spend a lot of money and resources on sports that are super competitive. My kid loves swimming and wanted to get into HS swim team, but couldn't qualify. All I thought at the time was my kid wasn't good enough. May be we should have complained that the kids who got selected in trials paid a lot of money for swim schools/coaches, swim team memberships that we couldn't afford i.e., time or money. Obviously we don't have the leg up in the game. Now I think its totally unfair and we should demand a quota for kids who are not 'prepped' for the sports and may be if my kid were given a chance and she would have done quite well - who knows?.

OMG, not this again. When will you grasp that sports are not the same as public education? The analogy is flawed. Please move on.

Right, sport superstars make lot more money than academic superstars . In addition, the main FOCUS/PURPOSE of public schools is to educate not sports.

Not sure I understand - So if something is a "main focus/purpose" then equity applies, but if its not the main focus/purpose we have a competitive merit based process for it? Please explain when merit should apply and when it should not.

No I think you misunderstand. All children deserve equal access to these programs. Not just ones whose parents can afford outside enrichment. Spots on the other hand have noting to do with school. As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't be something the county pays for but if they are yes they should provide equal access to all students. The NBA however can operate however it wants.

Depends on how you define "equal access". If you mean anyone can attend if they chose to, then that's an asinine contention. The reality of the world is that most "access" is the result of some prior choice or effort. A person can't start working at a federal job just by enrolling - they have to apply, they have to satisfy the requirements, and then they have to engage in competition against other candidates. There is a reason why the goals of free men in a liberal democracy were characterized by the Declaration of Independence as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness because no one is guaranteed the results they want just by showing up, but they are free to pursue it.

Why not let them try and if they don't maintain a certain standard, demote them back to their base school? That gives a year for them to try and make the cut vs. some highly manufactured application and test score that they've prepped for?

Normally, I might agree with this sentiment. My issue is that trying TJ for a year and then dropping back to the base school undoubtedly will harm kids significantly. They will feel like failures and have worse grades for college admissions than they would have had if they remained at base school. I think it's great to give kids a chance if you have every expectation that they're likely to succeed. It's morally questionable to push kids into TJ who aren't ready, just to score political points, and then wash your hands of them as soon as they struggle.

Some sort of baseline proficiency test and teacher recommendations would go a long way toward ensuring that kids are not being set up to fail.

But they know this going into it. And that's part of life: sometimes you fail at things. And no one is saying "push them" into TJ. You can go or not. I would agree with a baseline proficiency test before allowing them to try. But, if they pass that or meet the standard, and they VOLUNTARILY go with the expectations set out for them, let them try. It's a PUBLIC school and it should be open to that, imo.

I'm the PP, and I agree with you. If kids pass whatever tests that show they are likely to succeed at TJ, they absolutely should be given the chance to try. I don't want FCPS to push kids in who are not likely to succeed just so they can get better press releases or score political points. FCPS already kind of does this with AP exams. They push URM kids into taking AP classes and exams for which they aren't qualified, because the entities rating schools go by participation rates of URMs and not pass rates.

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Anonymous wrote:PP. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I just want to take a 50,000 ft view of the issues being debated here. The fact that the current Supreme Court, as conservative as they are. still let the new admissions policy stand should be a signal that the war is lost. Even if there will still be changes to the new admissions system, it seems highly unlikely to ever go back to the way it was.

I sympathize with the old admissions system, but I also don't think it was ever appropriate to set up a public school in this way. This is what private schools should be for. A private school can offer financial aid to those who can't afford it.

I also think all TJ parents need to take a step back and consider whether TJ is really the best thing for their kids. Having so many high-achieving kids clumped together in that school actually makes it harder for them to be accepted to a top school. MIT isn't going to admit 50 TJ kids in any given year. It is very much harder to stand out there. I get that iron sharpens iron, but it also comes with a significant risk of having nothing to show for all the effort than if they had just gone to their local high school.

I married into an Asian family, and I know that many times the drive to go TJ is from the parents who demand the kids to go to the "best" school or the "prestigious" school without considering that it is more than likely not going to be the big stepping stone they think it will be. Even the guy who wrote the op-ed in the Washington Post, while I respect his accomplishments, he could gotten into the Naval Academy and had all his success coming from any of the other excellent public schools in the area, because kids do it all the time. It's not like he invented the iPhone or made the next major scientific discovery, which is what the intense nature of TJ would lead one to believe is going to happen.

You must be high. I also don't have a dog in this fight but it's not clear at all that this racist admissions policy will be allowed to stand in the long term. Roberts has been very vocal about his negative view on affirmative action and any other racially motificated government policies that discriminate on the basis of race, even if it is done through proxies of facially neutral measures. Note that the Supreme Court's decision on the application to vacate is not a ruling on the merits of the case, but consideration of procedural/administrative issues. In this case, I suspect that Roberts, Barrett, and Kavanaugh considered the potential impact on the current batch of students if the stay was vacated, because FCPS did not prepare for an alternative admission process. Despite concerns of students having their constitutional rights violated by the new admissions policy, the courts, including SCOTUS, tend to let existing procedures stand unless there was some serious procedural error made in the appeals court.

Now, onto the rest of your points. I don't understand why you find selectivity to be an issue for publicly funded educational institutions. Are you saying there should be no public colleges, and that if we do have public colleges, every single one of them should admit every student that applies? Aside from admissions, there are a lot of achievement-based opportunities and privileges even inside any given public high school. A student doesn't go into the next level of higher math until they've achieved a sufficient grade in a prerequisite class. Just because the bar is often set fairly low doesn't change the fact that there is a bar, and that failing students do not advance. Being able to take the next level class is not automatic, but an earned privilege that is the outcome of some prior achievement. Being able to get into TJ based on demonstrated merit is the same concept in this sense.

The rest of your rationalizing about whether TJ is healthy or unhealthy, and the existence of alternatives is relevant to exactly one person: you. These are subjective opinions and are no more valid than any one else's, including those of parents who find that the rigor of TJ is a great fit for their kids, and that it is the place where their kids can obtain a superior education and be exceptionally well prepared for future studies and professional work in STEM fields.

Lastly, none of what you wrote, regardless of the underlying logic and passion, excuses the fact that the new admissions policy was implemented with racist intent and effect. Shame on you for making excuses for its continued existence.

Well said!

It's not racist to want to include a broader cross section of Fairfax County. Basically anything that reduced Asian representation would be called racist. That people think there can't be a change in policy the might change the racial composition of TJ so Asians aren't 60-70 percent of the school indefinitely seems crazy. It's a public school and its admissions should not be skewed toward people who can afford $4,000 test prep centers. Then those who pay for those prep centers claim their kids are just inherently more intelligent and so more deserving than other kids who don't score as high on the test without equivalent prep. If your kid is so inherently bright, they'll succeed anywhere. Why all the angst?

If that "broader cross section" is done on the basis of race, it is racist and illegal per our laws. Go ask black people "why all the angst" when they were raging against the racist laws during the civil rights movement.

The new policy does not mention race. It's based on allocation slots to various middle schools and a lottery.

For the n-th time for the benefit of the ignorant - facially neutral policies implemented with racist intent are still illegal.

Wanting to serve a broader cross section of the county isn't racist. It's valid to want more kids from each MS admitted to TJ. Asian kids from all middle schools are given the same opportunity as everyone else under the new system.

Facially neutral policies that discriminate are still discrimination. I think others have covered this here. But part of what they look at are the demographics. Who is screened in/out vs. representation in the population. I have no idea how this will come out but I do think Asians could potentially lose on this. They are, based on what I've seen, over-represented vs. the FCPS population. Opening it up to other under-represented groups seems like it could be sanctioned by the courts. Of course, there are many wrinkles but, GENERALLY speaking, I think the new standards will stand.

yeah, this is called "diversity." It's legal. Lots of appellate and SC decisions on this. I agree, plaintiffs will lose.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Another idiot who doesn’t believe that a student can take the test cold and succeed. What’s your connection to TJHSST again?

Does seeing the format of the questions help at all?

It wasn't just seeing the format. Many claimed they saw the actual questions ahead of time.

That's a great reason to eliminate the Quant-Q. It doesn't explain why the process was gutted to the point that it's impossible to distinguish between a highly gifted kid and a somewhat above average one. They could have retained a baseline proficiency test, teacher recommendations, more substantial problem solving essays, credit for notable accomplishments etc. while still minimizing the impact of extreme prep.

Well with people buying the test the quantQ didn't help differentiate between students either.

just a complete digression to dehumanise Asian kids.

No one is trying to dehumanized Asian kids. People just don't want access to expensive prep centers to be a significant factor to get into a public school. Pretty sure Asian kids aren't the one paying the $4,000 and trying to game the system. That's all on adults.

The prep center is just an excuse, a red herring to distract from the underlying racist discrimination against Asians. Parents, not just Asian parents, are all resourceful when it comes to the upbringing of their children. Even if you narrowly tailor a law outlawing academic prep centers and tutoring, as authoritarian China has recently done (it's true, look it up), parents will find some other way to raise their kids how they see fit - and some of them will go to great lengths to prepare their kids for a future in STEMP field and target a high school like TJ.

No I think it's an actual problem when the majority of kids being admitted attend one of these centers. This reduces the chances of anyone who doesn't attend. The allegations that one center even had test questions is also concerning.

Unless the prep center is doing something illegal or unethical - like cheating or bribery - there is nothing wrong with one center being successful at providing the type of academic tutoring that makes students successful at applying to a specific selective school. I'll keep reminding people of the fact that the kids who attend this prep school are a self-selected population. Kids don't just show up randomly at this prep center for general tutoring and then magically test into TJ. Kids show up there because they 1) specifically want to attend TJ and 2) already have the academic credentials that make admissions highly likely. I would wager that 100% of all kids who got a 1600 on their SAT, took a sample test from prior test sessions. Does that mean the availability of old tests gives an unfair advantage to kids who score 1600 on SATs?

Curie prepared students for a secured exam using questions that they had to have gotten from previous students.

The vast majority of questions on the Quant-Q are multi-layered word problems, so for students to see questions word for word on their exams that they had seen previously at Curie suggests that materials were delivered to them in a way that was at least unethical.

Comparisons to the SAT are not valid here because the SAT is not a secured exam. No one has to sign an NDA after seeing it in the way that they do after seeing the Quant-Q.

If there is cheating, then that's a different problem. The act of parents purchasing academic prep and tutoring is not the problem. To blame instances of cheating on prep and tutoring is like saying we should get rid of all government because some agencies or politicians are corrupt.

I agree that prepped students have an unfair advantage over the up prepped. Prepping is extremely common in any sort of competition, be it education, sports and life in general. It is a human (or animal) nature continuously look for ways to gain advantage over each other. Its just the way of life. But, it is not appropriate to blame the students of cheating as they did nothing wrong by attending any prep classes. If there is something illegal, then it should be punished, otherwise, you have no right to blame the kids. I am sure if there was a legal case for punishment, it would have been pursued by now. Even the current TJ screening can be prepped - tutoring to improve grades, take special writing classes for essays etc.

You're exactly right on all counts - and I argue for pro-reform causes. The students and parents who attended Curie and benefited from their services should not be held accountable in any way, and I'm not even sure Curie should because it's not 100% clear that what they did was illegal even though it was unquestionably unethical.

FCPS needs to increase the number of inputs into the system - perhaps by allowing optional test submissions like the SSAT and reinstituting a revamped teacher recommendation system that requires teachers to compare the students they teach with each other on metrics that include but go beyond mere academic preparedness - and then they need to junk the points-based rubric in favor of an actual holistic evaluation that allows the Admissions Office to evaluate the student's entire profile and create a class that complements each other rather than a collection of students who all appear the closest to some ideal standard.