Robert Frost beats Takoma Park in Mathcounts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will never understand why people think kids are smarter just because they are from wealthier areas. Obviously prep and opportunities play a huge role. Certain kids from the the west side may have better scores at this snapshot in time, but that does not mean they are more intelligent. And certainly a math competition doesn't tell the whole story.

That's the fundamental flaw here. Reality is by every possible metric TPMS admissions are substantially more rigorous since the advent of universal screening. There are 10x the number of applicants nowadays, and not just a few kids whose parents nominated them for the program. Nevertheless, some bitter parents want to disparage these kids largely because admissions no longer favors their offspring. It's really that simple.

Yes, Universal screening changed everything. They went from 800 applicants which were students whose parents knew to apply to the program to screening over 5000 promising students for the program. As a result admissions are far more competitive and this upsets a lot of people who were used to getting in easily.

omg... yes, let's completely ignore the "peer cohort" criteria. That's what people are upset about.

NP with a basic question: How does the "peer cohort" work for the kids in the W school districts? All of them have a strong peer cohort, and yet some of them were admitted to the magnets. Is there are percentage system, so that 1/3 of the admitted students come from high FARMS schools, 1/3 from mid, and 1/3 from low FARMS? I'd also be curious to know what percentage of the kids admitted from the wealthy schools end up accepting the offer. I'd guess that fewer of the kids from those areas prep for the test because fewer of their families even knew you could get into a magnet MS without applying, though whether that means they are more qualified than the kids who prepped under the old system I have no clue.

While they haven't flat out said this, it seems MCPS is looking for outliers in each school. There's no quota (5 kids per school or whatever) but they want every sending middle school to be represented and they want to grab kids who really stand above the crowd in their home school. The effect of this is of course going to be that it is easier to stand out if you are coming from a high-needs school than one where most kids enjoy the same advantages. So, yes, kids were admitted who would otherwise have attended Frost, and their scores were almost certainly higher than the kids admitted who would have otherwise attended Lee.

They are definitely not doing the 1/3 system you describe above, though. I'm guessing that if you broke it out and removed the in-bounds kids, you would find the admitted students still skew much whiter and more Asian, and richer, than the county as a whole. Which is pretty common, and MCPS is not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will never understand why people think kids are smarter just because they are from wealthier areas. Obviously prep and opportunities play a huge role. Certain kids from the the west side may have better scores at this snapshot in time, but that does not mean they are more intelligent. And certainly a math competition doesn't tell the whole story.

That's the fundamental flaw here. Reality is by every possible metric TPMS admissions are substantially more rigorous since the advent of universal screening. There are 10x the number of applicants nowadays, and not just a few kids whose parents nominated them for the program. Nevertheless, some bitter parents want to disparage these kids largely because admissions no longer favors their offspring. It's really that simple.

Yes, Universal screening changed everything. They went from 800 applicants which were students whose parents knew to apply to the program to screening over 5000 promising students for the program. As a result admissions are far more competitive and this upsets a lot of people who were used to getting in easily.

omg... yes, let's completely ignore the "peer cohort" criteria. That's what people are upset about.

NP with a basic question: How does the "peer cohort" work for the kids in the W school districts? All of them have a strong peer cohort, and yet some of them were admitted to the magnets. Is there are percentage system, so that 1/3 of the admitted students come from high FARMS schools, 1/3 from mid, and 1/3 from low FARMS? I'd also be curious to know what percentage of the kids admitted from the wealthy schools end up accepting the offer. I'd guess that fewer of the kids from those areas prep for the test because fewer of their families even knew you could get into a magnet MS without applying, though whether that means they are more qualified than the kids who prepped under the old system I have no clue.

While they haven't flat out said this, it seems MCPS is looking for outliers in each school. There's no quota (5 kids per school or whatever) but they want every sending middle school to be represented and they want to grab kids who really stand above the crowd in their home school. The effect of this is of course going to be that it is easier to stand out if you are coming from a high-needs school than one where most kids enjoy the same advantages. So, yes, kids were admitted who would otherwise have attended Frost, and their scores were almost certainly higher than the kids admitted who would have otherwise attended Lee.

They are definitely not doing the 1/3 system you describe above, though. I'm guessing that if you broke it out and removed the in-bounds kids, you would find the admitted students still skew much whiter and more Asian, and richer, than the county as a whole. Which is pretty common, and MCPS is not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good here.

True

"Recommendation 3a: Implement modifications to the selection process used for
academically competitive programs in MCPS, comprising elementary centers for highly
gifted students and secondary magnet programs, to focus these programs on selecting
equitably from among those applicants that demonstrate a capacity to thrive in the
program, that include use of non-cognitive criteria, group-specific norms that
benchmark student performance against school peers with comparable backgrounds,
and/or a process that offers automatic admissions to the programs for students in the
top 5-10% of sending elementary or middle schools in the district."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
NP with a basic question: How does the "peer cohort" work for the kids in the W school districts? All of them have a strong peer cohort, and yet some of them were admitted to the magnets. Is there are percentage system, so that 1/3 of the admitted students come from high FARMS schools, 1/3 from mid, and 1/3 from low FARMS? I'd also be curious to know what percentage of the kids admitted from the wealthy schools end up accepting the offer. I'd guess that fewer of the kids from those areas prep for the test because fewer of their families even knew you could get into a magnet MS without applying, though whether that means they are more qualified than the kids who prepped under the old system I have no clue.

We were told they are admitting "outliers" based on neighborhood MS. The one kid we know who got in from DC's high performing school is really an outlier. I heard the child declined.

[Anonymous]

Thank you PPs, for answering my question, and sorry to drag the thread off topic. My kid was admitted from a Pyle feeder, and while he's certainly a bright guy, I never would have thought of him as an outlier compared to the other very bright kids at his school. I guess it's not possibly to figure out exactly why certain kids made the cut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will never understand why people think kids are smarter just because they are from wealthier areas. Obviously prep and opportunities play a huge role. Certain kids from the the west side may have better scores at this snapshot in time, but that does not mean they are more intelligent. And certainly a math competition doesn't tell the whole story.

That's the fundamental flaw here. Reality is by every possible metric TPMS admissions are substantially more rigorous since the advent of universal screening. There are 10x the number of applicants nowadays, and not just a few kids whose parents nominated them for the program. Nevertheless, some bitter parents want to disparage these kids largely because admissions no longer favors their offspring. It's really that simple.

Yes, Universal screening changed everything. They went from 800 applicants which were students whose parents knew to apply to the program to screening over 5000 promising students for the program. As a result admissions are far more competitive and this upsets a lot of people who were used to getting in easily.

All 11000 fifth graders get considered. A smaller number (not sure if your 5k is correct, i also heard 7k) get tested. For 100 spots at each of the four magnet programs.

[Anonymous]

While they haven't flat out said this, it seems MCPS is looking for outliers in each school. There's no quota (5 kids per school or whatever) but they want every sending middle school to be represented and they want to grab kids who really stand above the crowd in their home school. The effect of this is of course going to be that it is easier to stand out if you are coming from a high-needs school than one where most kids enjoy the same advantages. So, yes, kids were admitted who would otherwise have attended Frost, and their scores were almost certainly higher than the kids admitted who would have otherwise attended Lee.

This is a really stupid way to do things based on how uneven the distribution of very high performers is throughout the county. The top "outlier" at many schools is at the bottom of the top group at other schools. You end up with kids who would get more out of a harder program being blocked while offering entry to kids who can barely make it or need to have the standard lowered. It has done nothing to help URM kids.

The enriched track should be available at every school. For the schools that truly do not have 20 kids that can not qualify for the enriched track then they can opt to be bused to the closest school that has an enriched track.

The magnet should be for the actual gifted and top performing students regardless of where they come from, what their gender is, what their race is, or whether they are poor or rich. There should be no special set aside spots and no lessening of any of the expectations. No one should be surprised that the magnet is overrepresented by kids of surgeons and NIH researchers and underrepresented by kids of HR wellness coordinators, non-profit administrators or communications staff.

For URM students, MCPS should do something with the early gifted testing results in 2nd grade and any URM kid scoring high should be given access to an after school scholars program to do enriched work and full summer programs for gifted kids to ensure that they can make it into the enriched track and potentially the magnet track on their merit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

While they haven't flat out said this, it seems MCPS is looking for outliers in each school. There's no quota (5 kids per school or whatever) but they want every sending middle school to be represented and they want to grab kids who really stand above the crowd in their home school. The effect of this is of course going to be that it is easier to stand out if you are coming from a high-needs school than one where most kids enjoy the same advantages. So, yes, kids were admitted who would otherwise have attended Frost, and their scores were almost certainly higher than the kids admitted who would have otherwise attended Lee.

This is a really stupid way to do things based on how uneven the distribution of very high performers is throughout the county. The top "outlier" at many schools is at the bottom of the top group at other schools. You end up with kids who would get more out of a harder program being blocked while offering entry to kids who can barely make it or need to have the standard lowered. It has done nothing to help URM kids.

The enriched track should be available at every school. For the schools that truly do not have 20 kids that can not qualify for the enriched track then they can opt to be bused to the closest school that has an enriched track.

The magnet should be for the actual gifted and top performing students regardless of where they come from, what their gender is, what their race is, or whether they are poor or rich. There should be no special set aside spots and no lessening of any of the expectations. No one should be surprised that the magnet is overrepresented by kids of surgeons and NIH researchers and underrepresented by kids of HR wellness coordinators, non-profit administrators or communications staff.

For URM students, MCPS should do something with the early gifted testing results in 2nd grade and any URM kid scoring high should be given access to an after school scholars program to do enriched work and full summer programs for gifted kids to ensure that they can make it into the enriched track and potentially the magnet track on their merit.

I totally agree they should do more for the western part of the county because we pay a lot of taxes. They need to accept that top-performers is a function of HHI and forget all this equity nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will never understand why people think kids are smarter just because they are from wealthier areas. Obviously prep and opportunities play a huge role. Certain kids from the the west side may have better scores at this snapshot in time, but that does not mean they are more intelligent. And certainly a math competition doesn't tell the whole story.

That's the fundamental flaw here. Reality is by every possible metric TPMS admissions are substantially more rigorous since the advent of universal screening. There are 10x the number of applicants nowadays, and not just a few kids whose parents nominated them for the program. Nevertheless, some bitter parents want to disparage these kids largely because admissions no longer favors their offspring. It's really that simple.

Yes, Universal screening changed everything. They went from 800 applicants which were students whose parents knew to apply to the program to screening over 5000 promising students for the program. As a result admissions are far more competitive and this upsets a lot of people who were used to getting in easily.

All 11000 fifth graders get considered. A smaller number (not sure if your 5k is correct, i also heard 7k) get tested. For 100 spots at each of the four magnet programs.

Only 5k were tested. All were considered. Some may have opted out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

While they haven't flat out said this, it seems MCPS is looking for outliers in each school. There's no quota (5 kids per school or whatever) but they want every sending middle school to be represented and they want to grab kids who really stand above the crowd in their home school. The effect of this is of course going to be that it is easier to stand out if you are coming from a high-needs school than one where most kids enjoy the same advantages. So, yes, kids were admitted who would otherwise have attended Frost, and their scores were almost certainly higher than the kids admitted who would have otherwise attended Lee.

This is a really stupid way to do things based on how uneven the distribution of very high performers is throughout the county. The top "outlier" at many schools is at the bottom of the top group at other schools. You end up with kids who would get more out of a harder program being blocked while offering entry to kids who can barely make it or need to have the standard lowered. It has done nothing to help URM kids.

The enriched track should be available at every school. For the schools that truly do not have 20 kids that can not qualify for the enriched track then they can opt to be bused to the closest school that has an enriched track.

The magnet should be for the actual gifted and top performing students regardless of where they come from, what their gender is, what their race is, or whether they are poor or rich. There should be no special set aside spots and no lessening of any of the expectations. No one should be surprised that the magnet is overrepresented by kids of surgeons and NIH researchers and underrepresented by kids of HR wellness coordinators, non-profit administrators or communications staff.

For URM students, MCPS should do something with the early gifted testing results in 2nd grade and any URM kid scoring high should be given access to an after school scholars program to do enriched work and full summer programs for gifted kids to ensure that they can make it into the enriched track and potentially the magnet track on their merit.

+1 peer cohort does nothing but lower the average and the overall program. Are we starting to see the decline of the once great magnets in MCPS? That's unfortunate and won't help MCPS's reputation.

I whole heartedly agree with universal screening as does everyone, I think. But peer cohort is not fair to those students who happen to live in a specific zip code.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

While they haven't flat out said this, it seems MCPS is looking for outliers in each school. There's no quota (5 kids per school or whatever) but they want every sending middle school to be represented and they want to grab kids who really stand above the crowd in their home school. The effect of this is of course going to be that it is easier to stand out if you are coming from a high-needs school than one where most kids enjoy the same advantages. So, yes, kids were admitted who would otherwise have attended Frost, and their scores were almost certainly higher than the kids admitted who would have otherwise attended Lee.

This is a really stupid way to do things based on how uneven the distribution of very high performers is throughout the county. The top "outlier" at many schools is at the bottom of the top group at other schools. You end up with kids who would get more out of a harder program being blocked while offering entry to kids who can barely make it or need to have the standard lowered. It has done nothing to help URM kids.

The enriched track should be available at every school. For the schools that truly do not have 20 kids that can not qualify for the enriched track then they can opt to be bused to the closest school that has an enriched track.

The magnet should be for the actual gifted and top performing students regardless of where they come from, what their gender is, what their race is, or whether they are poor or rich. There should be no special set aside spots and no lessening of any of the expectations. No one should be surprised that the magnet is overrepresented by kids of surgeons and NIH researchers and underrepresented by kids of HR wellness coordinators, non-profit administrators or communications staff.

For URM students, MCPS should do something with the early gifted testing results in 2nd grade and any URM kid scoring high should be given access to an after school scholars program to do enriched work and full summer programs for gifted kids to ensure that they can make it into the enriched track and potentially the magnet track on their merit.

I totally agree they should do more for the western part of the county because we pay a lot of taxes. They need to accept that top-performers is a function of HHI and forget all this equity nonsense.

Are you just trying to stir the pot? I dislike the peer cohort concept (which I've posted many times about on here), but that doesn't mean MCPS should "forget all this equity nonsense". Something needs to be done to close the achievement gap, but peer cohort ain't it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

While they haven't flat out said this, it seems MCPS is looking for outliers in each school. There's no quota (5 kids per school or whatever) but they want every sending middle school to be represented and they want to grab kids who really stand above the crowd in their home school. The effect of this is of course going to be that it is easier to stand out if you are coming from a high-needs school than one where most kids enjoy the same advantages. So, yes, kids were admitted who would otherwise have attended Frost, and their scores were almost certainly higher than the kids admitted who would have otherwise attended Lee.

This is a really stupid way to do things based on how uneven the distribution of very high performers is throughout the county. The top "outlier" at many schools is at the bottom of the top group at other schools. You end up with kids who would get more out of a harder program being blocked while offering entry to kids who can barely make it or need to have the standard lowered. It has done nothing to help URM kids.

The enriched track should be available at every school. For the schools that truly do not have 20 kids that can not qualify for the enriched track then they can opt to be bused to the closest school that has an enriched track.

The magnet should be for the actual gifted and top performing students regardless of where they come from, what their gender is, what their race is, or whether they are poor or rich. There should be no special set aside spots and no lessening of any of the expectations. No one should be surprised that the magnet is overrepresented by kids of surgeons and NIH researchers and underrepresented by kids of HR wellness coordinators, non-profit administrators or communications staff.

For URM students, MCPS should do something with the early gifted testing results in 2nd grade and any URM kid scoring high should be given access to an after school scholars program to do enriched work and full summer programs for gifted kids to ensure that they can make it into the enriched track and potentially the magnet track on their merit.

I totally agree they should do more for the western part of the county because we pay a lot of taxes. They need to accept that top-performers is a function of HHI and forget all this equity nonsense.

Are you just trying to stir the pot? I dislike the peer cohort concept (which I've posted many times about on here), but that doesn't mean MCPS should "forget all this equity nonsense". Something needs to be done to close the achievement gap, but peer cohort ain't it.

Then just implement AAP like they do in NOVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

While they haven't flat out said this, it seems MCPS is looking for outliers in each school. There's no quota (5 kids per school or whatever) but they want every sending middle school to be represented and they want to grab kids who really stand above the crowd in their home school. The effect of this is of course going to be that it is easier to stand out if you are coming from a high-needs school than one where most kids enjoy the same advantages. So, yes, kids were admitted who would otherwise have attended Frost, and their scores were almost certainly higher than the kids admitted who would have otherwise attended Lee.

This is a really stupid way to do things based on how uneven the distribution of very high performers is throughout the county. The top "outlier" at many schools is at the bottom of the top group at other schools. You end up with kids who would get more out of a harder program being blocked while offering entry to kids who can barely make it or need to have the standard lowered. It has done nothing to help URM kids.

The enriched track should be available at every school. For the schools that truly do not have 20 kids that can not qualify for the enriched track then they can opt to be bused to the closest school that has an enriched track.

The magnet should be for the actual gifted and top performing students regardless of where they come from, what their gender is, what their race is, or whether they are poor or rich. There should be no special set aside spots and no lessening of any of the expectations. No one should be surprised that the magnet is overrepresented by kids of surgeons and NIH researchers and underrepresented by kids of HR wellness coordinators, non-profit administrators or communications staff.

For URM students, MCPS should do something with the early gifted testing results in 2nd grade and any URM kid scoring high should be given access to an after school scholars program to do enriched work and full summer programs for gifted kids to ensure that they can make it into the enriched track and potentially the magnet track on their merit.

I totally agree they should do more for the western part of the county because we pay a lot of taxes. They need to accept that top-performers is a function of HHI and forget all this equity nonsense.

Are you just trying to stir the pot? I dislike the peer cohort concept (which I've posted many times about on here), but that doesn't mean MCPS should "forget all this equity nonsense". Something needs to be done to close the achievement gap, but peer cohort ain't it.

Then just implement AAP like they do in NOVA.

AAP is really watered down by comparison to MCPS magnets.Basically anyone with the $$$ to get a doctors note can make the cut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will never understand why people think kids are smarter just because they are from wealthier areas. Obviously prep and opportunities play a huge role. Certain kids from the the west side may have better scores at this snapshot in time, but that does not mean they are more intelligent. And certainly a math competition doesn't tell the whole story.

That's the fundamental flaw here. Reality is by every possible metric TPMS admissions are substantially more rigorous since the advent of universal screening. There are 10x the number of applicants nowadays, and not just a few kids whose parents nominated them for the program. Nevertheless, some bitter parents want to disparage these kids largely because admissions no longer favors their offspring. It's really that simple.

You nailed it. They scream bloody murder about peer cohort criteria too even though that only compensates for the "good" and "bad" schools which they'll normally be the first to tell you about too.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

While they haven't flat out said this, it seems MCPS is looking for outliers in each school. There's no quota (5 kids per school or whatever) but they want every sending middle school to be represented and they want to grab kids who really stand above the crowd in their home school. The effect of this is of course going to be that it is easier to stand out if you are coming from a high-needs school than one where most kids enjoy the same advantages. So, yes, kids were admitted who would otherwise have attended Frost, and their scores were almost certainly higher than the kids admitted who would have otherwise attended Lee.

This is a really stupid way to do things based on how uneven the distribution of very high performers is throughout the county. The top "outlier" at many schools is at the bottom of the top group at other schools. You end up with kids who would get more out of a harder program being blocked while offering entry to kids who can barely make it or need to have the standard lowered. It has done nothing to help URM kids.

The enriched track should be available at every school. For the schools that truly do not have 20 kids that can not qualify for the enriched track then they can opt to be bused to the closest school that has an enriched track.

The magnet should be for the actual gifted and top performing students regardless of where they come from, what their gender is, what their race is, or whether they are poor or rich. There should be no special set aside spots and no lessening of any of the expectations. No one should be surprised that the magnet is overrepresented by kids of surgeons and NIH researchers and underrepresented by kids of HR wellness coordinators, non-profit administrators or communications staff.

For URM students, MCPS should do something with the early gifted testing results in 2nd grade and any URM kid scoring high should be given access to an after school scholars program to do enriched work and full summer programs for gifted kids to ensure that they can make it into the enriched track and potentially the magnet track on their merit.

I totally agree they should do more for the western part of the county because we pay a lot of taxes. They need to accept that top-performers is a function of HHI and forget all this equity nonsense.

Are you just trying to stir the pot? I dislike the peer cohort concept (which I've posted many times about on here), but that doesn't mean MCPS should "forget all this equity nonsense". Something needs to be done to close the achievement gap, but peer cohort ain't it.

Then just implement AAP like they do in NOVA.

AAP is really watered down by comparison to MCPS magnets.Basically anyone with the $$$ to get a doctors note can make the cut.

Doubt it’s any more watered down than enriched classes at base schools. After all, that’s what PP suggested having more of, which is essentially AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

While they haven't flat out said this, it seems MCPS is looking for outliers in each school. There's no quota (5 kids per school or whatever) but they want every sending middle school to be represented and they want to grab kids who really stand above the crowd in their home school. The effect of this is of course going to be that it is easier to stand out if you are coming from a high-needs school than one where most kids enjoy the same advantages. So, yes, kids were admitted who would otherwise have attended Frost, and their scores were almost certainly higher than the kids admitted who would have otherwise attended Lee.

This is a really stupid way to do things based on how uneven the distribution of very high performers is throughout the county. The top "outlier" at many schools is at the bottom of the top group at other schools. You end up with kids who would get more out of a harder program being blocked while offering entry to kids who can barely make it or need to have the standard lowered. It has done nothing to help URM kids.

The enriched track should be available at every school. For the schools that truly do not have 20 kids that can not qualify for the enriched track then they can opt to be bused to the closest school that has an enriched track.

The magnet should be for the actual gifted and top performing students regardless of where they come from, what their gender is, what their race is, or whether they are poor or rich. There should be no special set aside spots and no lessening of any of the expectations. No one should be surprised that the magnet is overrepresented by kids of surgeons and NIH researchers and underrepresented by kids of HR wellness coordinators, non-profit administrators or communications staff.

For URM students, MCPS should do something with the early gifted testing results in 2nd grade and any URM kid scoring high should be given access to an after school scholars program to do enriched work and full summer programs for gifted kids to ensure that they can make it into the enriched track and potentially the magnet track on their merit.

I totally agree they should do more for the western part of the county because we pay a lot of taxes. They need to accept that top-performers is a function of HHI and forget all this equity nonsense.

Are you just trying to stir the pot? I dislike the peer cohort concept (which I've posted many times about on here), but that doesn't mean MCPS should "forget all this equity nonsense". Something needs to be done to close the achievement gap, but peer cohort ain't it.

Then just implement AAP like they do in NOVA.

AAP is really watered down by comparison to MCPS magnets.Basically anyone with the $$$ to get a doctors note can make the cut.

Doubt it’s any more watered down than enriched classes at base schools. After all, that’s what PP suggested having more of, which is essentially AAP.

I'm one of the PPs.. I always felt that MCPS magnet for MS/ES was superior to AAP because it was not watered down. But I do think that with the peer cohort, it is a bit like AAP. Actually, it's worse because at least FFX AAP puts the highest scoring students together (they have levels). MCPS is not doing that.