Raising kids in a competitive UMC community? Would you do it all over again?

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.

I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.

Way to miss the point.

No. She does not miss the point.

If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.

If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.

There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.

If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.

You both miss the point. We make $300k (closer to 400 actually) and live around others also probably making similar. We can “afford” $120 leggings but it’s just a stupid thing to spend on for a growing child and I hate that the other people here also making $300k have decided to be so wasteful with their money in some attempt to make their kids “cool.” I hate that making their kid cool is their main goal in parenting. It’s toxic.

No. You cannot regularly afford $120 leggings for children on that income unless you have a trust fund or some other source of income. And you might be less angry and judgmental when you realize that.

If your children are smart, they would be grateful for reasonable parents if you choose not to keep up with the Joneses.

Of course you can afford $120 leggings on 300k.

My parents never bought anything for themselves and still don’t. They earned way less than 300k and still tried to buy my brother and me nice things. My brother and I got jobs as soon as we were able to and learned the value of money.

We earn more now but we used to have a 300k income. We were able to live just fine, pay for a FT nanny, preschool and still manage to buy nice clothes for myself and our kids. I bought myself professional clothes and also lululemon. I would have bought my daughter pants if she really wanted them.

You are just money stupid.

Of course people can afford $120 leggings on 300K. However it does not end with 1 pair of Lulus, or just with leggings, it then morphs into Invisalign vs normal braces, etc etc. And all this for a kid who hasn't stopped growing.

Our HHI is multiple times 300k now so we are doing something right. I have a kid with Invisalign, retirement and college fully funded.

The pp said they couldn’t buy Lululemon on 300k for their kid. I don’t know when lululemon became a status symbol.

It's a status symbol for people making 300k and pretending they can afford it. It's not a status symbol for people making millions a year.

Let me break some math to you - yes, you can afford 120 leggings on 300k income. In fact you can buy a pair every month without noticing. And you can absolutely say "yes" to whatever leggings one day and "no" to a different item the next day. Just because you bought the leggings doesn't mean you need buy everything your child asks for till the rest of their lives.

This thread is about expectations of these expensive items, so we are not discussing once in a while purchases. These kids expect to dress like this most of the time, and they expect similarly expensive purchases for cars, shoes, coffee, vacations, etc. It's not possible for families living on 300k income unless they are financially irresponsible. It's not unreasonable for families making triple or quadruple that income.

it is absolutely possible to afford some luxuries on $300k. you can travel internationally - but not three times a year. you can go to Starbucks but not twice a day. you can be nice furniture, but not every month. etc. etc. it's ok to indulge oneself on occasion and to teach your kids the same.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Virginia Beach is ghetto

Not as bad as Newport News

Both are bad. Va Beach and Newport News are in the same tidewater region. You definitely would not want your kids going to public for K-12 there. It’s a race to the bottom. This based on personal experience.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.

I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.

Way to miss the point.

No. She does not miss the point.

If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.

If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.

There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.

If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.

You both miss the point. We make $300k (closer to 400 actually) and live around others also probably making similar. We can “afford” $120 leggings but it’s just a stupid thing to spend on for a growing child and I hate that the other people here also making $300k have decided to be so wasteful with their money in some attempt to make their kids “cool.” I hate that making their kid cool is their main goal in parenting. It’s toxic.

How do you even know what the $120 leggings look like? They all look exactly the same to me.

Because they have a little teeny logo on the leg.

My older loves fashion, real fashion, and we have a great time finding things, hanging out. She likes learning about the various designers and the histories of earlier designers. So I was disappointed when my 12 year old was exact opposite and asked me for what everyone was wearing in her sixth grade.

I bought her some Lululemon hoodies but refused to buy leggings because they are garbage. The hoodies were fine and same quality as similar priced hoodies and I explained to her that we will find leggings that are high quality and worth the money.

And then next she mentioned the dreaded Uggs. They are so ugly that I refuse to buy them. I got the See by Chloe shearling leather ankle boots instead. Much better value and the heels don’t crush and look awful.

I can’t believe this is turning in a clothing post. This happens in every community where there’s some brand name that all the teens want. I don’t think it’s about competitive communities.

You have narcissistic tendencies and are a bad mom. My mother did to me exactly what you’re doing to your daughter, thinking you’re somehow better than trendy fashion and showing everyone your superiority by refusing to just buy the popular brands. You are making your daughter suffer socially. I got made fun of mercilessly in middle school because my mother refused to buy anything trendy on principle like you. It is so selfish and stupid. If you can’t afford things that’s totally different. But that’s not what you’re doing.

Again I think kids nowadays are not making fun of other kids for not having trendy stuff. The preppy/popular kids are into trendy stuff but that they not making fun of kids in the hallway for not wearing Lululemon. Maybe the dynamic is different *within* the popular group? But honestly I wouldn't want my kids to be part of any group that is dissing kids for their clothes. You sound like you need to work on some stuff. I was made fun for different things growing up but I am not going to let that guide my parenting.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Virginia Beach is ghetto

Not as bad as Newport News

Both are bad. Va Beach and Newport News are in the same tidewater region. You definitely would not want your kids going to public for K-12 there. It’s a race to the bottom. This based on personal experience.

My kids are doing K-12 in the Tidewater region and they’re not racing to the bottom. They’ll get into the same colleges many of your kids will and they’re having happy, well-adjusted childhoods along the way, free from travel sports and Lululemon.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Virginia Beach is ghetto

Not as bad as Newport News

Both are bad. Va Beach and Newport News are in the same tidewater region. You definitely would not want your kids going to public for K-12 there. It’s a race to the bottom. This based on personal experience.

I live in Norfolk and my kids go to private so I'm not overly offended by what you said but plenty of the parents at my kids' school went to public school in VA Beach and I'd say they're doing just fine based on their jobs/houses/etc.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We moved due to school closures to Charlottesville. Everything is just a bit more relaxed here, though people are well educated and my child’s (inexpensive private) school is much better than her previous school. I try not to express pity to my dc friends, but I do pity their rat race situation . . . It’s also easier to get into college from here. I can’t find a downside.

To each their own. We went to Charlottesville for 1 day to check out UVA and Monticello. My son did not like UVA or Charlottesville.

We have friends who moved to similar places like Roanoke or areas where they could buy a lot of land. They love it. It is so far from a major airport.

I don't live in Charlottesville so I don't have a dog in this fight but you went there for ONE DAY and decided the entire city wasn't for you? Ok. I have multiple friends who live there and love it. That's fine if you don't want to live there, but to judge an entire city after being there for a day is very small minded.

For minorities and people of color, going to an area where it is majority white would not be preferred. We are a minority. My husband got an offer in an area that felt like it was 99.9% white. Schools were good. My husband was offered $1m+ and we declined because that was not the type of environment I wanted for my minority children. We have white friends who love this area and would have thought this offer would be amazing. They are white and not minorities.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.

I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.

Way to miss the point.

No. She does not miss the point.

If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.

If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.

There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.

If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.

You both miss the point. We make $300k (closer to 400 actually) and live around others also probably making similar. We can “afford” $120 leggings but it’s just a stupid thing to spend on for a growing child and I hate that the other people here also making $300k have decided to be so wasteful with their money in some attempt to make their kids “cool.” I hate that making their kid cool is their main goal in parenting. It’s toxic.

How do you even know what the $120 leggings look like? They all look exactly the same to me.

Because they have a little teeny logo on the leg.

My older loves fashion, real fashion, and we have a great time finding things, hanging out. She likes learning about the various designers and the histories of earlier designers. So I was disappointed when my 12 year old was exact opposite and asked me for what everyone was wearing in her sixth grade.

I bought her some Lululemon hoodies but refused to buy leggings because they are garbage. The hoodies were fine and same quality as similar priced hoodies and I explained to her that we will find leggings that are high quality and worth the money.

And then next she mentioned the dreaded Uggs. They are so ugly that I refuse to buy them. I got the See by Chloe shearling leather ankle boots instead. Much better value and the heels don’t crush and look awful.

I can’t believe this is turning in a clothing post. This happens in every community where there’s some brand name that all the teens want. I don’t think it’s about competitive communities.

You have narcissistic tendencies and are a bad mom. My mother did to me exactly what you’re doing to your daughter, thinking you’re somehow better than trendy fashion and showing everyone your superiority by refusing to just buy the popular brands. You are making your daughter suffer socially. I got made fun of mercilessly in middle school because my mother refused to buy anything trendy on principle like you. It is so selfish and stupid. If you can’t afford things that’s totally different. But that’s not what you’re doing.

Again I think kids nowadays are not making fun of other kids for not having trendy stuff. The preppy/popular kids are into trendy stuff but that they not making fun of kids in the hallway for not wearing Lululemon. Maybe the dynamic is different *within* the popular group? But honestly I wouldn't want my kids to be part of any group that is dissing kids for their clothes. You sound like you need to work on some stuff. I was made fun for different things growing up but I am not going to let that guide my parenting.

My older kids are boys and I have an elementary girl. I have heard of mean girl stories starting in upper elementary. Girls can be mean. They will be mean to fat girls, tall girls, any girls. I know my tween and teen boys don’t like to stand out. Their friends all dress similarly in joggers, athletic shorts and sweatshirts. I can’t imagine any of them caring if their pants are from old navy or Nike. Girls may care more.

[Anonymous]

Confidence of child is key. I have 2 boys. My older son got my old iPhone. We were going to give our second son my husband’s old iPhone but our carrier said it was too old to hook up and gave him a free new iPhone. His one friend was over and saw that my son had a new iPhone and he seemed embarrassed of his old phone. I even said to the mom and boy the only reason he had the new phone was because it was free and the old one couldn’t be activated.

My older son still has my old phone and he really couldn’t care less. I don’t care either. My husband got me a new phone and I remember a few random people commented on my phone. I thought it was odd people even could tell. I guess the number of lenses is different.

So those girls who have Lululemon or are confident anyways probably don’t care if your girl who can’t afford or have parents who don’t want to buy for them have the logo or not. It is more your daughter who feels insecure about it. Girls aren’t going around looking for this logo and teasing girls in the hallway about this.

[Anonymous]

Lululemon has a style. It isn’t just the logo. The cuts are flattering. Hoodies are cute. They are good quality too. I have never had a pair that I had to throw out.

I also have alo, athleta, caqique?, under armor, Nike, etc. I do think I wear Lululemon the most. It is the most flattering.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We are currently raising our kids in a very competitive UMC community. There’s some racial diversity but next to no socioeconomic diversity. Top 1 percent ranked public school in the national, starting price for a modest house is 1.5-2n… it’s very much a bubble. Kids are extremely involved in extracurriculars across the board and it’s a very strong community. In many ways we are happy with it but I also have this nagging feeling maybe it’s not the answer for my family and my kids. I grew up in a small middle class town where everyone made the team in HS and college was expected but community college was okay too. It wasn’t a pressure cooker environment. We were just kids and had a lot of leisure time. I went on to private school in college and experienced the uber wealthy and those from much lower incomes in my social circle as well as a lot of diversity. I think I personally benefitted from it and do well with all kinds of people. We own a second home in a rural area. My kids are 6,8 and 9. I’m considering moving there where it’s a much simpler lifestyle and not so competitive. I would love to hear what people have to say about their own experiences.

Hard NO from me chiming in from a childhood in Scarsdale and Rye.

Ugh, same here, childhood in Greenwich…EXCEPT. That background launched me into one of the best secondary schools in the world, and I can’t tell you how important my experience there has been to my life. Despite that school’s incredible racial, national, cultural, and socioeconomic diversity, I’m not confident I would have gotten in (or even thought to apply) without the privileges afforded me by my childhood.

My family now is sadly not in a private school income bracket, and my husband’s family is state-flagship oriented, as opposed to my Ivy-oriented family. There’s a big cultural difference and it’s unsettling to think that my kids won’t be able to relate.

Very weird

not that weird- actually quite common, especially here in DC in the non-profit world. younger gen x, older millennials grew up in a time of extreme affluence and peace, our single income immigrant parents could afford a really good life and the of us who didnt chase money or pay attention to it thought that similar choices would lead to similar outcomes and that just isn't true any longer.

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.

I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.

Way to miss the point.

No. She does not miss the point.

If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.

If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.

There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.

If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.

You both miss the point. We make $300k (closer to 400 actually) and live around others also probably making similar. We can “afford” $120 leggings but it’s just a stupid thing to spend on for a growing child and I hate that the other people here also making $300k have decided to be so wasteful with their money in some attempt to make their kids “cool.” I hate that making their kid cool is their main goal in parenting. It’s toxic.

How do you even know what the $120 leggings look like? They all look exactly the same to me.

Because they have a little teeny logo on the leg.

My older loves fashion, real fashion, and we have a great time finding things, hanging out. She likes learning about the various designers and the histories of earlier designers. So I was disappointed when my 12 year old was exact opposite and asked me for what everyone was wearing in her sixth grade.

I bought her some Lululemon hoodies but refused to buy leggings because they are garbage. The hoodies were fine and same quality as similar priced hoodies and I explained to her that we will find leggings that are high quality and worth the money.

And then next she mentioned the dreaded Uggs. They are so ugly that I refuse to buy them. I got the See by Chloe shearling leather ankle boots instead. Much better value and the heels don’t crush and look awful.

I can’t believe this is turning in a clothing post. This happens in every community where there’s some brand name that all the teens want. I don’t think it’s about competitive communities.

You have narcissistic tendencies and are a bad mom. My mother did to me exactly what you’re doing to your daughter, thinking you’re somehow better than trendy fashion and showing everyone your superiority by refusing to just buy the popular brands. You are making your daughter suffer socially. I got made fun of mercilessly in middle school because my mother refused to buy anything trendy on principle like you. It is so selfish and stupid. If you can’t afford things that’s totally different. But that’s not what you’re doing.

Again I think kids nowadays are not making fun of other kids for not having trendy stuff. The preppy/popular kids are into trendy stuff but that they not making fun of kids in the hallway for not wearing Lululemon. Maybe the dynamic is different *within* the popular group? But honestly I wouldn't want my kids to be part of any group that is dissing kids for their clothes. You sound like you need to work on some stuff. I was made fun for different things growing up but I am not going to let that guide my parenting.

+1

I have 3 in HS and MS (with varying degrees of “popularity”) and agree with this. I haven’t heard any of them discussing other kids’ clothing etc in a negative way unless it something totally crazy and purposely attention seeking. Certainly nothing about brands etc. unless it is in a positive way. One of my kids is super popular and it doesn’t seem to be any different in her circle than in her sibling’s (not so popular) circle. It may be different at other schools- ours is a large UMC suburban public.

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Anonymous wrote:It sounds like you people complaining of the hyper competitiveness just need to move a little further out/into less affluent areas right here in the DC metro. What do you expect if you live in Arlington, McLean, Bethesda, Falls Church, even Vienna? There's a lot of money in those places. If you go just a little further out/less affluent you will still get some competitiveness but it will be mixed with more middle class and down to earth people. You don't have to move out of the area entirely. And also did you not know what you were signing up for when you decided you wanted the nice house very close to a major city? Of course it's a bunch of rich people who value superficial things and look down on others.

its not just that they are rich-they are rich who have mostly earned their own wealth through striving and working hard, I mean a lot came from UMC families but UMC in 1990 is not the same as the UMC now. These families have double triple the means their parents did when they were growing up and they are very proud of themselves and made a lot of choices and sacrifices b/c wealth creation was the be-all end-all. People like this are not just rich, they are materialistic/superficial to the point of toxicity. And the many posts on here point to a lot of us realizing that this cant be what we worked for but dont quite know how to fix it. and to those who think moving to the midwest will solve it- ha ha, the midwest is cheap and the salaries are higher, people there have a LOT more disposable income and you've got just as much or more materialistic striving, especially with the kids. honestly nowhere else has as highly concentrated a pool of highly educated UMC people with interesting jobs and experiences with an appetite and desire for excellence as DC, the other cities are full of actually wealthy people- like billionaire level or nearing it. DC is a city of the top 10%, not the .01%

We are not billionaires. We do have a seven figure income. We are not a materialistic family. I’m not sure why you think people are materialistic/superficial to the point of toxicity.

I have friends who live here from CA and NY and we think people in the DMV are down to earth. Maybe this is just code for uglier. My one friend from LA is glad to raise her girls here where people are less superficial. I have boys and they just don’t care about their clothes or brands. In our circles, there are lawyers, doctors, tech executives, government contractors, military, feds, etc. They are UMC/UC. I don’t think anyone we hang out with is materialistic at all.

I was talking about the Midwest which is often touted here as the "down to earth" less competitive place - I lived in the district and moved toe teh midwest and its not that different than the strivers everywhere else. I agree with you that ppl with millions are just as likely to be down to earth and normal people in the Washington area and some will have millions and in their circle of friends will be people who definitely dont if they send there kids to public schools. It used to be more economically mixed at the privates but that has changed.

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

Why not move to DC? I live in NE, and everyone around me has a 10 year old Honda CRV they barely use because we mostly use the bus or metro. My kids wear Amazon basics and I’m sporting the latest from Target. DH and I make a lot, but choose to spend on experiences, and kids are learning well in charter schools.

Life is only competitive if you make it that way.

This is us, too, but there can be stealth competition in this lifestyle. Like this PP might be totally chill. But she could also be weirdly competitive about how her kids immersion or montessori charter is better than wherever your kids go, or how they're more environmentally conscious because they metro everywhere, or brag endlessly about they would NEVER do Disney because it's so corporate but they had an amazing time on their 10 day camping trip in the Alps last summer.

I've met people who seemed down to earth like this but I think this area has so many type A, personally competitive people that even if you get away from the really overt, hyper-materislistic people, you still sometimes encounter one-upsmanship and other competitive behaviors.

And yes, of course there are people like this everywhere. But I've lived a lot of places and there are more people like this here than in places in "fly over country" where people's expectations for themselves and other people tend to be lower.

There’s a difference between being competitive and just being insecure. I find lots of people who choose to raise families in DC public schools to be generally less insecure because they are already making choices that insecure people would never make.

Wow, hard disagree, I see a TON of insecurity in DC public school families, especially the ones who don't have access to "well regarded" inbound schools. Either they go the charter route, where there's lots of insecurity about which charter is best, as well as these arguments (on DCUM yes but people talk about this IRL too) about test scores relative to socioecomic status of families. Or they attend their IB which might be Title 1 or have pretty atrocious test scores, and there's tons of insecurity there that can manifest as "well I'm a better person than you because I invest in my neighborhood school" or this pity party "whyyyyy don't we have any lottery luck and why is our school so weak." The lottery and the unevenness of schools in DC creates winners and losers and that absolutely leads to insecure, competitive behavior in both groups.

I'm sure the rich folks at privates or the really well funded suburban publics are insecure in their own way, but I observe endless insecurity in the DC public school parents I meet (we are a DC public school family).

What is this insecurity that you are referencing?

DH and I are both ivy educated. We have a HHI of $2-3m. Our kids get good grades, play sports, dance, do scouts, have friends from similar backgrounds. My kids are loved and happy.

I am not in competition with other moms or kids. My kids are good at almost everything and have lots of friends.

Yes you keep repeating this over and over

I’m responding to someone’s post on a forum. We know people in different economic ranges even within our affluent community. Some people come from family money. Many are well educated and self made. Lots of international money. I actually find that we are surrounded by confident people, not insecure ones like the pp is suggesting.

I have heard your zip code matters most in determining your adult success. My kids are surrounded by people who are successful. You cannot live in a $3m house by being a slacker.

LOL, what? Who are you hanging around that would tell you this nonsense??

Its a pretty well known phenomenon:

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=592257846&rls=en&q=Zip+code+determines+success&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiooYOKjpyDAxV6rokEHb_dCB0Q1QJ6BAhHEAE&biw=1409&bih=735&dpr=2

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Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread.

We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?

or think of yourself as a low achiever even though you are doing your best.

This. Growing up in an environment where "achievement" is most valued (as opposed to family, personal fulfillment, balance, happiness, charity) breeds insecurity. If what matters most is winning, most people will be failures.

Whereas if what matters most is creating a fulfilling and meaningful life, thus is possible for anyone, and there is also no time limit.

You can value achievement and still value family and happiness even more. For a good example, look at Nigerian American families and see how close they are to their families and how supportive they are of their families. Then take a look at how proud they are of their educational, professional and other achievements.

Have you ever met an Indian? They are also very family and achievement oriented.

Indian very cocky though

haha so are nigerians!

I'm half Indian/pakistani 2nd generation but our families can be a source of stress and competition more than a support or comfort. maybe I feel like this b/c my family was one of the early well settled ones who helped everyone else out but we get ZERO support or appreciation, nothing but expectations put on us. its VERY annoying and South asians are very very materialistic, toxic levels and and mostly ive seen that we are not very civic minded. I dont think looking at high wealth & success immigration communities is the way to go- b/c that is a self selecting group of people who loves money and success more than anything else- they will forego seeing their parents for 20,30 years to make money and both parents and kids are ok with this, its an acceptable price! More mixed income immigrant communities like Cubans or Italians or Filipino are better examples.

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Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread.

We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?

or think of yourself as a low achiever even though you are doing your best.

This. Growing up in an environment where "achievement" is most valued (as opposed to family, personal fulfillment, balance, happiness, charity) breeds insecurity. If what matters most is winning, most people will be failures.

Whereas if what matters most is creating a fulfilling and meaningful life, thus is possible for anyone, and there is also no time limit.

You can value achievement and still value family and happiness even more. For a good example, look at Nigerian American families and see how close they are to their families and how supportive they are of their families. Then take a look at how proud they are of their educational, professional and other achievements.

Have you ever met an Indian? They are also very family and achievement oriented.

Indian very cocky though

haha so are nigerians!

I'm half Indian/pakistani 2nd generation but our families can be a source of stress and competition more than a support or comfort. maybe I feel like this b/c my family was one of the early well settled ones who helped everyone else out but we get ZERO support or appreciation, nothing but expectations put on us. its VERY annoying and South asians are very very materialistic, toxic levels and and mostly ive seen that we are not very civic minded. I dont think looking at high wealth & success immigration communities is the way to go- b/c that is a self selecting group of people who loves money and success more than anything else- they will forego seeing their parents for 20,30 years to make money and both parents and kids are ok with this, its an acceptable price! More mixed income immigrant communities like Cubans or Italians or Filipino are better examples.

It does feel like Indians and Persians are very competitive with one another and their friends and families. They take sibling rivalry and competitiveness to another level.