Pay-to-Play Sport at Private HS employing club coach - what's normal?

[Anonymous]

So I am going to play devil's advocate here. First, let me say I am not in complete agreement with the tactics of the baseball coach. I do know the coaches are under tremendous pressure to produce and win. Year by year the number of national tournaments in which the school participates in increases. Alumni donations soar when a team gets nationally ranked or wins. What is going on at SJC has been going for years for soccer and baseball. Every parent knows when they come to SJC your child can be easily recruited over or better yet cut. The coaches make no guarantees. This happens at IMG, Sienna Canyon and etc. If you don't like it go to GPrep or a school that's outside of the WCAC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So I am going to play devil's advocate here. First, let me say I am not in complete agreement with the tactics of the baseball coach. I do know the coaches are under tremendous pressure to produce and win. Year by year the number of national tournaments in which the school participates in increases. Alumni donations soar when a team gets nationally ranked or wins. What is going on at SJC has been going for years for soccer and baseball. Every parent knows when they come to SJC your child can be easily recruited over or better yet cut. The coaches make no guarantees. This happens at IMG, Sienna Canyon and etc. If you don't like it go to GPrep or a school that's outside of the WCAC.

I agree with you, that parents should just send their kids to schools other than SJC. But let’s make sure we understand the distinction here-you’re talking about no guarantees from coaches, kids losing their playing time or starting positions or even roster spots to kids who are recruited over them. What is going on in St. John’s baseball is kids who are being kicked out of the program for not paying the coaches private company in the off-season. I’m sure you can see the difference. And since you’re talking about the profile of the school, and the fact that being nationally ranked and winning championships energizes the donor base, take a look at SJC as a case study. Their football and basketball teams (the two highest profile sports in high school and the ones UA cares about) almost never win WCAC championships, but they have nationally ranked players who go to top schools on full scholarships on a regular basis. The baseball team I think is the reverse of that. They win championships every year but don’t typically have superstar players who go on to be stars in college (or even scholarship players) or the pros. So i guess it would be helpful to define “success.” My vote is for the programs that open life changing opportunities up for young men and women, not those that win trophies. Also the thing that cannot be lost here is that the baseball team seems to be successful because they don’t follow the rules. I would think that alumni and other donors would be troubled by that. This issue of practicing regularly outside of the allowed calendar is a big deal. The NCAA has rules to this effect and schools that violate the rules are punished fairly severely. The rules are put in place to foster fair competition and protect student athletes. If your school is winning championships but blatantly violating these rules, I can’t see how this would be a source of pride. Lesson to your students: it’s ok to cheat as long as no one calls you on it and you win. Kinda pathetic. And back to your original point, that parents should just send their kids to other schools. What about baseball players at other schools in the WCAC? Kinda sucks that they’ll probably never have a chance to win a championship because one school cheats and no one cares.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:SJC soccer parent here and i agree with those who say they are not big fans of Sal, but that he appears to be a saint compared to the baseball coach. We know some kids on the baseball team and it is clear they don’t respect him. They make fun of him, roll there eyes at him, and we always wonder why they would want to play for him. But before I let Sal off the hook, I think the biggest disappointment is that SJC has hired two low character individuals to coach their teams.

+100. I can't imagine anyone spending 15 minutes either 1) interviewing or 2) checking any parent references or 3) watching a game/practice and coming away saying this is a person who character aligns with SJC.

We met with Coach Gibbs when our son was an 8th grader. When we walked out of his "clubhouse" I'm not sure who said "hell no" first -- me, my husband or my son. I can't imagine a scenario where I would have agreed to put my son in his care for 4 years, especially now that I know he pretty much owns his players year round. PP said something about not being able to imagine coming away saying the coach's character aligns with SJC. If the school is hiring people like the baseball and soccer coach regularly, then maybe that speaks to the character of the school. Sports factory > catholic values.

All this said, SJC continues to get the largest pool of applicants. If it's so horrible, why are 1200 plus applying for 1/5 the # of slots?

Beautiful facilities. They do a really nice marketing job. UA swag for athletes. Best co-Ed athletics in the wcac. A lot of shiny facade, but it looks like they have a lot of work to do on the substantial stuff. Curious to know if they get more applications per enrollment slot for boys than Gonzaga or DeMatha. I’d think not.

About that UA swag...it's paid for by parents. The trend has been that every year the price of the training gear goes up, and the players get less and less gear. What was shorts, jerseys, socks, warmups, sneakers, and cleats a couple years ago has been whittled down to just a fraction of what was previously provided - and the price has gone up. Has the school turned training gear into a profit center, or does some of what is ordered and paid for by parents end up, well let's just say...elsewhere? No clue, and no accountability either. No list of what's being ordered, no request for sizes, just send your check and take what you get. We'll pass on this year.

How is this possible when the school is sponsored by UA? Cant speak for baseball but, I know for a fact that soccer and football are provided with gear.

Game uniforms are provided free of charge, training gear is all paid for by parent (at least in soccer). Being sponsored by UA does not mean every single thing is paid for by UA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So I am going to play devil's advocate here. First, let me say I am not in complete agreement with the tactics of the baseball coach. I do know the coaches are under tremendous pressure to produce and win. Year by year the number of national tournaments in which the school participates in increases. Alumni donations soar when a team gets nationally ranked or wins. What is going on at SJC has been going for years for soccer and baseball. Every parent knows when they come to SJC your child can be easily recruited over or better yet cut. The coaches make no guarantees. This happens at IMG, Sienna Canyon and etc. If you don't like it go to GPrep or a school that's outside of the WCAC.

Getting cut is one thing.
Paying a bribe to play is another.

I don't see why SJC defenders can't see the difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I am going to play devil's advocate here. First, let me say I am not in complete agreement with the tactics of the baseball coach. I do know the coaches are under tremendous pressure to produce and win. Year by year the number of national tournaments in which the school participates in increases. Alumni donations soar when a team gets nationally ranked or wins. What is going on at SJC has been going for years for soccer and baseball. Every parent knows when they come to SJC your child can be easily recruited over or better yet cut. The coaches make no guarantees. This happens at IMG, Sienna Canyon and etc. If you don't like it go to GPrep or a school that's outside of the WCAC.

Getting cut is one thing.
Paying a bribe to play is another.

I don't see why SJC defenders can't see the difference.

Some may see it as paying a bribe, but on the the receiving end, it feels more like extortion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I am going to play devil's advocate here. First, let me say I am not in complete agreement with the tactics of the baseball coach. I do know the coaches are under tremendous pressure to produce and win. Year by year the number of national tournaments in which the school participates in increases. Alumni donations soar when a team gets nationally ranked or wins. What is going on at SJC has been going for years for soccer and baseball. Every parent knows when they come to SJC your child can be easily recruited over or better yet cut. The coaches make no guarantees. This happens at IMG, Sienna Canyon and etc. If you don't like it go to GPrep or a school that's outside of the WCAC.

Getting cut is one thing.
Paying a bribe to play is another.

I don't see why SJC defenders can't see the difference.

Some may see it as paying a bribe, but on the the receiving end, it feels more like extortion.

I read this and thought “what’s the difference?” But have thought about it. Big difference if I had bribed SJC it would’ve been my choice. I was definitely extorted. And by the time we figured it out, my son was a junior. Wasn’t going t pull him out at that point. Trapped. That’s the best way I can describe the way we felt.

[Anonymous]

If this is so egregious why does SJC continue to allow it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If this is so egregious why does SJC continue to allow it?

Ask SJC. Only they know.

[Anonymous]

Has anyone asked them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone asked them?

The SJC administration must be well aware of what is going on in these programs. 5 students left in the middle of the year because they were not being allowed to play on the school baseball team because they did not pay to play in the coach’s travel program. These 5 are now all at other schools. At our school you have to sign a contract obligating you to pay tuition for the entire year even if your student leaves mid year. I’d think in the case at SJC, the school had to let the parents out of the contract, or the parents refused to pay given the circumstances. HOS’s know about these kinds of things. I’d like to know what kind of response these parents got from the HOS/administration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone asked them?

The SJC administration must be well aware of what is going on in these programs. 5 students left in the middle of the year because they were not being allowed to play on the school baseball team because they did not pay to play in the coach’s travel program. These 5 are now all at other schools. At our school you have to sign a contract obligating you to pay tuition for the entire year even if your student leaves mid year. I’d think in the case at SJC, the school had to let the parents out of the contract, or the parents refused to pay given the circumstances. HOS’s know about these kinds of things. I’d like to know what kind of response these parents got from the HOS/administration.

I’d be curious to know what those families were told as well. I also wonder what the other schools in the conference think. It seems like they’d have an incentive to complain about what sound like league rule violations (year round training) and push for sanctions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone asked them?

The SJC administration must be well aware of what is going on in these programs. 5 students left in the middle of the year because they were not being allowed to play on the school baseball team because they did not pay to play in the coach’s travel program. These 5 are now all at other schools. At our school you have to sign a contract obligating you to pay tuition for the entire year even if your student leaves mid year. I’d think in the case at SJC, the school had to let the parents out of the contract, or the parents refused to pay given the circumstances. HOS’s know about these kinds of things. I’d like to know what kind of response these parents got from the HOS/administration.

I don’t know how tuition obligations were handled for these 5 (yes SJC has a similar contract) but can say with certainty that the president of the school knows what’s going on in the program. He’s close o the coach. Baseball is not really part of the rest of the athletic program at SJC. They have their own clubhouse (other teams use shared locker rooms), they have their own strength/training guy who is not an employee of the school (and unlike other athletes at SJC they have to pay for their year round training), and they even have their own medical/pt guy (not employee of the school, not the school’s athletic training staff that works with all other teams; presumably this is also an extra cost for players’ families). When my kid was there, he said the baseball guys didn’t socialize with other students/athletes either.

There were some comments directed at the outgoing AD earlier in this post, but I’m not sure he had anything to do with the baseball program and it’s morally/legally questionable practices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone asked them?

The SJC administration must be well aware of what is going on in these programs. 5 students left in the middle of the year because they were not being allowed to play on the school baseball team because they did not pay to play in the coach’s travel program. These 5 are now all at other schools. At our school you have to sign a contract obligating you to pay tuition for the entire year even if your student leaves mid year. I’d think in the case at SJC, the school had to let the parents out of the contract, or the parents refused to pay given the circumstances. HOS’s know about these kinds of things. I’d like to know what kind of response these parents got from the HOS/administration.

I don’t know how tuition obligations were handled for these 5 (yes SJC has a similar contract) but can say with certainty that the president of the school knows what’s going on in the program. He’s close o the coach. Baseball is not really part of the rest of the athletic program at SJC. They have their own clubhouse (other teams use shared locker rooms), they have their own strength/training guy who is not an employee of the school (and unlike other athletes at SJC they have to pay for their year round training), and they even have their own medical/pt guy (not employee of the school, not the school’s athletic training staff that works with all other teams; presumably this is also an extra cost for players’ families). When my kid was there, he said the baseball guys didn’t socialize with other students/athletes either.

There were some comments directed at the outgoing AD earlier in this post, but I’m not sure he had anything to do with the baseball program and it’s morally/legally questionable practices.

Sounds like they should be paying the players instead of the reverse!

[Anonymous]

it sounds like good players are leaving the school and upcoming good players will avoid the school. Then, they will stop winning championships and things will change.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like a no brainer to me. If you don’t like the way things are done, avoid the school and the program.