TJ Admissions Roundup

[Anonymous]

I have to believe that business people running TJ-focused test prep businesses will get their students who take the new math test to describe the questions afterwards, so that next year’s applicants can practice the same or nearly the same math problems at the center. After all, a test prep center which does so will over time have a better and better chance of getting their students admitted to TJ, which would support higher fees and growth in prep class attendance.

This simply is Business 101, so I have to believe it will happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Once again, if you can just buy your way into TJ, why aren't there more white kids there?

Because they aren’t as driven by national rankings? Not as interested in STEM or a grind HS experience?

It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.

It’s a choice that affluent families had.

20 years ago, TJ was majority white. Did they suddenly develop a disdain STEM and competitive high schools over the last 4 years? Or did they get crowded out?

Not so suddenly, but yes, there has been less push for kids to attend ultra competitive environments. The number of white applicants has been declining over the years.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

I haven't looked at all years, but during previous thread I looked at the numbers for class of 2015.
56% of all Asian 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
99% of them did apply

45% of all white 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
49% of them did apply


FWIW, 92% of eligible black 8th graders in FCPS that year applied.

Here are the numbers.

Only half of eligible white students applied (vs 99% of Asian students). They don’t want the competitive environment.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

The eligibility criteria were laughably low. I think the GPA requirement was like a 3.0.

There was a time when TJ was majority white, the white kids didn't leave, they got pushed out.
See this chart by the college board showing that 22% of asian kids geta 750 or higher on the math section of the SAT. That number if 4% for whites.
23% of asians get a 1400 SAT score or higher, that number if 7% for whites kids
9% of asians get a 1500 SAT score or higher, than number is 2% for white kids
White kids are clearly trying to get good SAT scores but they cannot seem to do so at the same rate as asians.

The white kids weren't foregoing tjhsst because they didn't want to deal with the competitive environment. They couldn't get in and they knew it so they didn't try.

Yes, as the prep wars escalated, many were pushed out because it just wasn't worth spending $20k on prep to ensure admissions.

$20K on prep? Pfft, this isn't travel ball.

I don't know exactly how much curie is but it looks like a couple thousand a year at most and the test prep is $300.
This is just more racist rationalization trying to explain why asians are outperforming white kids all over the country and at every income level.

For the “signature program” it’s $7k for all 4 semesters. More if you start your kid before 7th grade.

“Curie Learning’s Signature Level 7/8 Program
This program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and critical thinking, with a focus on preparation for success in high school and college. This program will help students to not only prepare for any advanced institutions such as AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in any high school and later in any college/university.

Semester 1: (4 classes/month) $1,095.00 Aug. 25th, 2023 - Dec.19th, 2023
*Semester 2: (7 classes/month) $1,850.00 Jan. 2nd, 2024 - June 23rd, 2024
Additional $300 for extra classes for new students. (Mandatory)
Semester 3 (option 1): (8-11 classes/month) $1,850.00 + $300 (TJ/AOS/AET Extra Prep classes):
Jul.8th, 2024 - Dec 2024
Semester 3 (option 2): (7 classes/month) $1,200.00 Sept 2023 - Dec 2023
Semester 4: (6 classes/month) $1,600.00 Jan 2024-Jun 2024”

So about $280/month?
That's not nothing but it doesn't seem like a rich kid program.

Can't argue with success. Their ad in the paper showed that one-third of TJ's entering class were their customers.

When a huge portion of the admitted class comes from an expensive test prep company then you know something is wrong.


For many years, people have been appalled at how a public school magnet excluded so many groups in the community. The class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students from low-income families. Very little representation from URMs and MSs with many low-income families. TJ was mostly filled with kids from affluent "feeder" middle schools.

FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
https://www.fcag.org/tjadmissions.shtml

Expensive test prep has also been an ongoing issue that exacerbated the lack of representation from certain MSs and groups.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” [school board member] Megan McLaughlin asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”

"McLaughlin, like other board members, still worries about Washington’s booming test-prep industry. Modeled on Korean “cram” schools, classes meet after school, on weekends, and throughout the summer. “They’ve become professionals at that process of getting into TJ,” says Josh Silverman, a private tutor in the area."


Paying to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for this public school program.

LOL.

You just do not have a basic understanding of math. That is ok. Just funny someone like that talks about TJHSST.

25+% is a huge portion (133/486) coming from a single test prep company given the size of the region.

Happy to help explain basic math to you at any point.

The problem was never the 133 out of 486 coming from one prep test company.
The problem was the 355 out of 486 that came from one raciall group.
If those 133 kids were the only asians at TJ, they wouldn't have changed the admissions process.

It wasn’t a “too many Asians” problem. It was a “not enough URMs, ED, EL, SN” problem.

If they just wanted to cut down on the # of Asian students they wouldn’t have expanded the class size. But they added the seats to ADD the less-represented groups.

This is complete nonsense. The selection process is race blind. The problem was all the students came from just a few wealthy feeder schools where kids could afford test prep. The changes to the process made it so students were the top students from all schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Once again, if you can just buy your way into TJ, why aren't there more white kids there?

Because they aren’t as driven by national rankings? Not as interested in STEM or a grind HS experience?

It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.

It’s a choice that affluent families had.

20 years ago, TJ was majority white. Did they suddenly develop a disdain STEM and competitive high schools over the last 4 years? Or did they get crowded out?

Not so suddenly, but yes, there has been less push for kids to attend ultra competitive environments. The number of white applicants has been declining over the years.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

I haven't looked at all years, but during previous thread I looked at the numbers for class of 2015.
56% of all Asian 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
99% of them did apply

45% of all white 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
49% of them did apply


FWIW, 92% of eligible black 8th graders in FCPS that year applied.

Here are the numbers.

Only half of eligible white students applied (vs 99% of Asian students). They don’t want the competitive environment.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

The eligibility criteria were laughably low. I think the GPA requirement was like a 3.0.

There was a time when TJ was majority white, the white kids didn't leave, they got pushed out.
See this chart by the college board showing that 22% of asian kids geta 750 or higher on the math section of the SAT. That number if 4% for whites.
23% of asians get a 1400 SAT score or higher, that number if 7% for whites kids
9% of asians get a 1500 SAT score or higher, than number is 2% for white kids
White kids are clearly trying to get good SAT scores but they cannot seem to do so at the same rate as asians.

The white kids weren't foregoing tjhsst because they didn't want to deal with the competitive environment. They couldn't get in and they knew it so they didn't try.

Yes, as the prep wars escalated, many were pushed out because it just wasn't worth spending $20k on prep to ensure admissions.

$20K on prep? Pfft, this isn't travel ball.

I don't know exactly how much curie is but it looks like a couple thousand a year at most and the test prep is $300.
This is just more racist rationalization trying to explain why asians are outperforming white kids all over the country and at every income level.

For the “signature program” it’s $7k for all 4 semesters. More if you start your kid before 7th grade.

“Curie Learning’s Signature Level 7/8 Program
This program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and critical thinking, with a focus on preparation for success in high school and college. This program will help students to not only prepare for any advanced institutions such as AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in any high school and later in any college/university.

Semester 1: (4 classes/month) $1,095.00 Aug. 25th, 2023 - Dec.19th, 2023
*Semester 2: (7 classes/month) $1,850.00 Jan. 2nd, 2024 - June 23rd, 2024
Additional $300 for extra classes for new students. (Mandatory)
Semester 3 (option 1): (8-11 classes/month) $1,850.00 + $300 (TJ/AOS/AET Extra Prep classes):
Jul.8th, 2024 - Dec 2024
Semester 3 (option 2): (7 classes/month) $1,200.00 Sept 2023 - Dec 2023
Semester 4: (6 classes/month) $1,600.00 Jan 2024-Jun 2024”

So about $280/month?
That's not nothing but it doesn't seem like a rich kid program.

Can't argue with success. Their ad in the paper showed that one-third of TJ's entering class were their customers.

When a huge portion of the admitted class comes from an expensive test prep company then you know something is wrong.


For many years, people have been appalled at how a public school magnet excluded so many groups in the community. The class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students from low-income families. Very little representation from URMs and MSs with many low-income families. TJ was mostly filled with kids from affluent "feeder" middle schools.

FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
https://www.fcag.org/tjadmissions.shtml

Expensive test prep has also been an ongoing issue that exacerbated the lack of representation from certain MSs and groups.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” [school board member] Megan McLaughlin asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”

"McLaughlin, like other board members, still worries about Washington’s booming test-prep industry. Modeled on Korean “cram” schools, classes meet after school, on weekends, and throughout the summer. “They’ve become professionals at that process of getting into TJ,” says Josh Silverman, a private tutor in the area."


Paying to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for this public school program.

LOL.

You just do not have a basic understanding of math. That is ok. Just funny someone like that talks about TJHSST.

25+% is a huge portion (133/486) coming from a single test prep company given the size of the region.

Happy to help explain basic math to you at any point.

It is not a problem when 30% of the applying students take the single test prep company's admissions course. It tells you that someone who is taking the class has a lower odds of getting in compared to not taking the said company's class.

Say 2500 apply to TJ and 1000 of them take this single test prep company's admissions course. If say 150 of this company class get admission that is an admit rate of 15%. If the other 300 students are admitted from the 1500 students who did not take the course, that is an admit rate of 20%. Then it is not a problem.

The said company is preying on insecurities of a group, fleecing them, and needlessly harming kids. But that is not really a problem for TJ admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Once again, if you can just buy your way into TJ, why aren't there more white kids there?

Because they aren’t as driven by national rankings? Not as interested in STEM or a grind HS experience?

It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.

It’s a choice that affluent families had.

20 years ago, TJ was majority white. Did they suddenly develop a disdain STEM and competitive high schools over the last 4 years? Or did they get crowded out?

Not so suddenly, but yes, there has been less push for kids to attend ultra competitive environments. The number of white applicants has been declining over the years.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

I haven't looked at all years, but during previous thread I looked at the numbers for class of 2015.
56% of all Asian 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
99% of them did apply

45% of all white 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
49% of them did apply


FWIW, 92% of eligible black 8th graders in FCPS that year applied.

Here are the numbers.

Only half of eligible white students applied (vs 99% of Asian students). They don’t want the competitive environment.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

The eligibility criteria were laughably low. I think the GPA requirement was like a 3.0.

There was a time when TJ was majority white, the white kids didn't leave, they got pushed out.
See this chart by the college board showing that 22% of asian kids geta 750 or higher on the math section of the SAT. That number if 4% for whites.
23% of asians get a 1400 SAT score or higher, that number if 7% for whites kids
9% of asians get a 1500 SAT score or higher, than number is 2% for white kids
White kids are clearly trying to get good SAT scores but they cannot seem to do so at the same rate as asians.

The white kids weren't foregoing tjhsst because they didn't want to deal with the competitive environment. They couldn't get in and they knew it so they didn't try.

Yes, as the prep wars escalated, many were pushed out because it just wasn't worth spending $20k on prep to ensure admissions.

$20K on prep? Pfft, this isn't travel ball.

I don't know exactly how much curie is but it looks like a couple thousand a year at most and the test prep is $300.
This is just more racist rationalization trying to explain why asians are outperforming white kids all over the country and at every income level.

For the “signature program” it’s $7k for all 4 semesters. More if you start your kid before 7th grade.

“Curie Learning’s Signature Level 7/8 Program
This program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and critical thinking, with a focus on preparation for success in high school and college. This program will help students to not only prepare for any advanced institutions such as AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in any high school and later in any college/university.

Semester 1: (4 classes/month) $1,095.00 Aug. 25th, 2023 - Dec.19th, 2023
*Semester 2: (7 classes/month) $1,850.00 Jan. 2nd, 2024 - June 23rd, 2024
Additional $300 for extra classes for new students. (Mandatory)
Semester 3 (option 1): (8-11 classes/month) $1,850.00 + $300 (TJ/AOS/AET Extra Prep classes):
Jul.8th, 2024 - Dec 2024
Semester 3 (option 2): (7 classes/month) $1,200.00 Sept 2023 - Dec 2023
Semester 4: (6 classes/month) $1,600.00 Jan 2024-Jun 2024”

So about $280/month?
That's not nothing but it doesn't seem like a rich kid program.

Can't argue with success. Their ad in the paper showed that one-third of TJ's entering class were their customers.

When a huge portion of the admitted class comes from an expensive test prep company then you know something is wrong.


For many years, people have been appalled at how a public school magnet excluded so many groups in the community. The class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students from low-income families. Very little representation from URMs and MSs with many low-income families. TJ was mostly filled with kids from affluent "feeder" middle schools.

FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
https://www.fcag.org/tjadmissions.shtml

Expensive test prep has also been an ongoing issue that exacerbated the lack of representation from certain MSs and groups.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” [school board member] Megan McLaughlin asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”

"McLaughlin, like other board members, still worries about Washington’s booming test-prep industry. Modeled on Korean “cram” schools, classes meet after school, on weekends, and throughout the summer. “They’ve become professionals at that process of getting into TJ,” says Josh Silverman, a private tutor in the area."


Paying to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for this public school program.

LOL.

You just do not have a basic understanding of math. That is ok. Just funny someone like that talks about TJHSST.

25+% is a huge portion (133/486) coming from a single test prep company given the size of the region.

Happy to help explain basic math to you at any point.

The problem was never the 133 out of 486 coming from one prep test company.
The problem was the 355 out of 486 that came from one raciall group.
If those 133 kids were the only asians at TJ, they wouldn't have changed the admissions process.

It wasn’t a “too many Asians” problem. It was a “not enough URMs, ED, EL, SN” problem.

If they just wanted to cut down on the # of Asian students they wouldn’t have expanded the class size. But they added the seats to ADD the less-represented groups.

This is complete nonsense. The selection process is race blind. The problem was all the students came from just a few wealthy feeder schools where kids could afford test prep. The changes to the process made it so students were the top students from all schools.

It is race blind to idiots who cannot think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have to believe that business people running TJ-focused test prep businesses will get their students who take the new math test to describe the questions afterwards, so that next year’s applicants can practice the same or nearly the same math problems at the center. After all, a test prep center which does so will over time have a better and better chance of getting their students admitted to TJ, which would support higher fees and growth in prep class attendance.

This simply is Business 101, so I have to believe it will happen.

It already did happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Once again, if you can just buy your way into TJ, why aren't there more white kids there?

Because they aren’t as driven by national rankings? Not as interested in STEM or a grind HS experience?

It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.

It’s a choice that affluent families had.

20 years ago, TJ was majority white. Did they suddenly develop a disdain STEM and competitive high schools over the last 4 years? Or did they get crowded out?

Not so suddenly, but yes, there has been less push for kids to attend ultra competitive environments. The number of white applicants has been declining over the years.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

I haven't looked at all years, but during previous thread I looked at the numbers for class of 2015.
56% of all Asian 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
99% of them did apply

45% of all white 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
49% of them did apply


FWIW, 92% of eligible black 8th graders in FCPS that year applied.

Here are the numbers.

Only half of eligible white students applied (vs 99% of Asian students). They don’t want the competitive environment.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

The eligibility criteria were laughably low. I think the GPA requirement was like a 3.0.

There was a time when TJ was majority white, the white kids didn't leave, they got pushed out.
See this chart by the college board showing that 22% of asian kids geta 750 or higher on the math section of the SAT. That number if 4% for whites.
23% of asians get a 1400 SAT score or higher, that number if 7% for whites kids
9% of asians get a 1500 SAT score or higher, than number is 2% for white kids
White kids are clearly trying to get good SAT scores but they cannot seem to do so at the same rate as asians.

The white kids weren't foregoing tjhsst because they didn't want to deal with the competitive environment. They couldn't get in and they knew it so they didn't try.

Yes, as the prep wars escalated, many were pushed out because it just wasn't worth spending $20k on prep to ensure admissions.

$20K on prep? Pfft, this isn't travel ball.

I don't know exactly how much curie is but it looks like a couple thousand a year at most and the test prep is $300.
This is just more racist rationalization trying to explain why asians are outperforming white kids all over the country and at every income level.

For the “signature program” it’s $7k for all 4 semesters. More if you start your kid before 7th grade.

“Curie Learning’s Signature Level 7/8 Program
This program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and critical thinking, with a focus on preparation for success in high school and college. This program will help students to not only prepare for any advanced institutions such as AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in any high school and later in any college/university.

Semester 1: (4 classes/month) $1,095.00 Aug. 25th, 2023 - Dec.19th, 2023
*Semester 2: (7 classes/month) $1,850.00 Jan. 2nd, 2024 - June 23rd, 2024
Additional $300 for extra classes for new students. (Mandatory)
Semester 3 (option 1): (8-11 classes/month) $1,850.00 + $300 (TJ/AOS/AET Extra Prep classes):
Jul.8th, 2024 - Dec 2024
Semester 3 (option 2): (7 classes/month) $1,200.00 Sept 2023 - Dec 2023
Semester 4: (6 classes/month) $1,600.00 Jan 2024-Jun 2024”

So about $280/month?
That's not nothing but it doesn't seem like a rich kid program.

Can't argue with success. Their ad in the paper showed that one-third of TJ's entering class were their customers.

When a huge portion of the admitted class comes from an expensive test prep company then you know something is wrong.


For many years, people have been appalled at how a public school magnet excluded so many groups in the community. The class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students from low-income families. Very little representation from URMs and MSs with many low-income families. TJ was mostly filled with kids from affluent "feeder" middle schools.

FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
https://www.fcag.org/tjadmissions.shtml

Expensive test prep has also been an ongoing issue that exacerbated the lack of representation from certain MSs and groups.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” [school board member] Megan McLaughlin asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”

"McLaughlin, like other board members, still worries about Washington’s booming test-prep industry. Modeled on Korean “cram” schools, classes meet after school, on weekends, and throughout the summer. “They’ve become professionals at that process of getting into TJ,” says Josh Silverman, a private tutor in the area."


Paying to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for this public school program.

LOL.

You just do not have a basic understanding of math. That is ok. Just funny someone like that talks about TJHSST.

25+% is a huge portion (133/486) coming from a single test prep company given the size of the region.

Happy to help explain basic math to you at any point.

It is not a problem when 30% of the applying students take the single test prep company's admissions course. It tells you that someone who is taking the class has a lower odds of getting in compared to not taking the said company's class.

Say 2500 apply to TJ and 1000 of them take this single test prep company's admissions course. If say 150 of this company class get admission that is an admit rate of 15%. If the other 300 students are admitted from the 1500 students who did not take the course, that is an admit rate of 20%. Then it is not a problem.

The said company is preying on insecurities of a group, fleecing them, and needlessly harming kids. But that is not really a problem for TJ admissions.

That in itself would be very problematic. 1/3rd of all applicants go to this one prep company? Yikes.

The test prep industry is deepening inequities.

Where did you get the #s of Curie kids per application cycle? 1000 8th graders are in the signature class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have to believe that business people running TJ-focused test prep businesses will get their students who take the new math test to describe the questions afterwards, so that next year’s applicants can practice the same or nearly the same math problems at the center. After all, a test prep center which does so will over time have a better and better chance of getting their students admitted to TJ, which would support higher fees and growth in prep class attendance.

This simply is Business 101, so I have to believe it will happen.

This is unethical when the students taking the test have signed a statement promising that they would not discuss the questions. Obviously, this practice is getting into cheating territory, not to mention encouraging children to engage in unethical practices.

If you see this practice as Business 101, I have to wonder what your character is like and what kind of integrity you maintain in other aspects of your life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s fun to try to blame wealthy people as cheaters. That’s just a distraction and coping mechanism for the real issue. the real issue is URM test performance across the board, including at the new TJ.

For those against equity policies, the TJ admissions changes are showing in real time the results from PSAT to SOLs to math levels. And the results aren’t good.

Now I dont necessarily disagree with opening TJ for all, but let’s not pretend the URMs weren’t getting in before because cheaters. URMs perform measurably worse than their non-URM peers. Otherwise we wouldn’t be addressing those gaps all the time in various academic environs.

That still hasn’t changed. Yes even for URMs at TJ, the gaps still persist.

Expensive test prep has also been an ongoing issue that exacerbated the lack of representation from many MSs and groups.

Sorry. Those rich kids would have outperformed URMs without the prep. This is just a basic fact of education in the US for the last 50 years. It’s not the prep. Sure prep may make the gap a bit bigger, but it’s not the reason for the gap.

It’s parents. Always has been.

Yes, that’s why I said “exacerbated”.

Kids can’t choose their parents.

That’s the gap in the score. Not attendance. URMs haven’t been able to fill out roles at TJ or close the gap in average schools across the country for ever. The admissions change was not about test prep; it was about accepting reality.

Does extensive test prep (including access to prior quant-q questions) increase the chance of admissions? Yes.

It exacerbates the problem. It widens the gap.

I don’t think you understand.

Poor kids were never getting in over rich kids regardless of prep. The gaps are too large without the prep. Rich kid test prep just pushes out hard working middle class kids.

now it’s prepped kids and bonus point kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s fun to try to blame wealthy people as cheaters. That’s just a distraction and coping mechanism for the real issue. the real issue is URM test performance across the board, including at the new TJ.

For those against equity policies, the TJ admissions changes are showing in real time the results from PSAT to SOLs to math levels. And the results aren’t good.

Now I dont necessarily disagree with opening TJ for all, but let’s not pretend the URMs weren’t getting in before because cheaters. URMs perform measurably worse than their non-URM peers. Otherwise we wouldn’t be addressing those gaps all the time in various academic environs.

That still hasn’t changed. Yes even for URMs at TJ, the gaps still persist.

Expensive test prep has also been an ongoing issue that exacerbated the lack of representation from many MSs and groups.

This has largely been debunked by a harvard study and that is one the primary reasons why so many top schools are returning to a testing requirement.
The test scores measure academic performance among the wealthy as much as it does among the poor.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf?ref=framechange.com

I skimmed but I don’t see anything about the impact of test prep on academic disparities.

If (as the argument goes) test prep is primarily limited to the "wealthy" and increases test scores in a way that did not reflect actual ability
then you would expect wealthy kids with the same test scores as poor kids to underperform the poor kids.
They don't.
Wealth may correlate to higher test scores but the test scores reflect actual ability and not wealth.
IOW, wealthy kids actually have higher academic ability on average than poor kids.

If you want to fix that, selective high schools and elite colleges are not the place for that remediation.
It should probbaly happen a lot sooner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s fun to try to blame wealthy people as cheaters. That’s just a distraction and coping mechanism for the real issue. the real issue is URM test performance across the board, including at the new TJ.

For those against equity policies, the TJ admissions changes are showing in real time the results from PSAT to SOLs to math levels. And the results aren’t good.

Now I dont necessarily disagree with opening TJ for all, but let’s not pretend the URMs weren’t getting in before because cheaters. URMs perform measurably worse than their non-URM peers. Otherwise we wouldn’t be addressing those gaps all the time in various academic environs.

That still hasn’t changed. Yes even for URMs at TJ, the gaps still persist.

Expensive test prep has also been an ongoing issue that exacerbated the lack of representation from many MSs and groups.

Sorry. Those rich kids would have outperformed URMs without the prep. This is just a basic fact of education in the US for the last 50 years. It’s not the prep. Sure prep may make the gap a bit bigger, but it’s not the reason for the gap.

It’s parents. Always has been.

Yes, that’s why I said “exacerbated”.

Kids can’t choose their parents.

That’s the gap in the score. Not attendance. URMs haven’t been able to fill out roles at TJ or close the gap in average schools across the country for ever. The admissions change was not about test prep; it was about accepting reality.

Does extensive test prep (including access to prior quant-q questions) increase the chance of admissions? Yes.

It exacerbates the problem. It widens the gap.

That gap was there before quant Q.
Peer reviewed research shows that test scores reflect ability regardless of income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I have found interesting is that under the previous regime, E Asians (e.g., China, Korea, Taiwan, Japan) were not over-represented and SE Asians (e.g., Singapore, Malaysia, Viet Nam, Thailand) were not over-represented. Yet, both sets of ethnic groups are known to be very academically focused, with after school tutoring at hone or in a center other than Curie being fairly common.

Only S Asians were over-represented at TJHSST under the previous admissions regime, and Curie clearly targeted the S Asian parents. Curious correlation.

I thought East-Asians have been over-represented since TJ opened in 1985. It's just that there weren't that many Asians in Fairfax back then so TJ was mostly white until maybe 2012 or so.
The class of 2024 looks like East-Asians were definitely over-represented relative to the population in the county.

South Asians are just the latest in a long line of over-achieving immigrants that are labelled cheater because white people cannot fathom how these people with thick accents could possibly be smarter than them. These same people just stopped accusing East-Asians of cheating like 10 minutes ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Once again, if you can just buy your way into TJ, why aren't there more white kids there?

Because they aren’t as driven by national rankings? Not as interested in STEM or a grind HS experience?

It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.

It’s a choice that affluent families had.

20 years ago, TJ was majority white. Did they suddenly develop a disdain STEM and competitive high schools over the last 4 years? Or did they get crowded out?

Not so suddenly, but yes, there has been less push for kids to attend ultra competitive environments. The number of white applicants has been declining over the years.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

I haven't looked at all years, but during previous thread I looked at the numbers for class of 2015.
56% of all Asian 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
99% of them did apply

45% of all white 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
49% of them did apply


FWIW, 92% of eligible black 8th graders in FCPS that year applied.

Here are the numbers.

Only half of eligible white students applied (vs 99% of Asian students). They don’t want the competitive environment.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

The eligibility criteria were laughably low. I think the GPA requirement was like a 3.0.

There was a time when TJ was majority white, the white kids didn't leave, they got pushed out.
See this chart by the college board showing that 22% of asian kids geta 750 or higher on the math section of the SAT. That number if 4% for whites.
23% of asians get a 1400 SAT score or higher, that number if 7% for whites kids
9% of asians get a 1500 SAT score or higher, than number is 2% for white kids
White kids are clearly trying to get good SAT scores but they cannot seem to do so at the same rate as asians.

The white kids weren't foregoing tjhsst because they didn't want to deal with the competitive environment. They couldn't get in and they knew it so they didn't try.

Yes, as the prep wars escalated, many were pushed out because it just wasn't worth spending $20k on prep to ensure admissions.

$20K on prep? Pfft, this isn't travel ball.

I don't know exactly how much curie is but it looks like a couple thousand a year at most and the test prep is $300.
This is just more racist rationalization trying to explain why asians are outperforming white kids all over the country and at every income level.

For the “signature program” it’s $7k for all 4 semesters. More if you start your kid before 7th grade.

“Curie Learning’s Signature Level 7/8 Program
This program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and critical thinking, with a focus on preparation for success in high school and college. This program will help students to not only prepare for any advanced institutions such as AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in any high school and later in any college/university.

Semester 1: (4 classes/month) $1,095.00 Aug. 25th, 2023 - Dec.19th, 2023
*Semester 2: (7 classes/month) $1,850.00 Jan. 2nd, 2024 - June 23rd, 2024
Additional $300 for extra classes for new students. (Mandatory)
Semester 3 (option 1): (8-11 classes/month) $1,850.00 + $300 (TJ/AOS/AET Extra Prep classes):
Jul.8th, 2024 - Dec 2024
Semester 3 (option 2): (7 classes/month) $1,200.00 Sept 2023 - Dec 2023
Semester 4: (6 classes/month) $1,600.00 Jan 2024-Jun 2024”

So about $280/month?
That's not nothing but it doesn't seem like a rich kid program.

Can't argue with success. Their ad in the paper showed that one-third of TJ's entering class were their customers.

When a huge portion of the admitted class comes from an expensive test prep company then you know something is wrong.


For many years, people have been appalled at how a public school magnet excluded so many groups in the community. The class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students from low-income families. Very little representation from URMs and MSs with many low-income families. TJ was mostly filled with kids from affluent "feeder" middle schools.

FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
https://www.fcag.org/tjadmissions.shtml

Expensive test prep has also been an ongoing issue that exacerbated the lack of representation from certain MSs and groups.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” [school board member] Megan McLaughlin asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”

"McLaughlin, like other board members, still worries about Washington’s booming test-prep industry. Modeled on Korean “cram” schools, classes meet after school, on weekends, and throughout the summer. “They’ve become professionals at that process of getting into TJ,” says Josh Silverman, a private tutor in the area."


Paying to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for this public school program.

LOL.

You just do not have a basic understanding of math. That is ok. Just funny someone like that talks about TJHSST.

25+% is a huge portion (133/486) coming from a single test prep company given the size of the region.

Happy to help explain basic math to you at any point.

The problem was never the 133 out of 486 coming from one prep test company.
The problem was the 355 out of 486 that came from one raciall group.
If those 133 kids were the only asians at TJ, they wouldn't have changed the admissions process.

It wasn’t a “too many Asians” problem. It was a “not enough URMs, ED, EL, SN” problem.

If they just wanted to cut down on the # of Asian students they wouldn’t have expanded the class size. But they added the seats to ADD the less-represented groups.

This is complete nonsense. The selection process is race blind. The problem was all the students came from just a few wealthy feeder schools where kids could afford test prep. The changes to the process made it so students were the top students from all schools.

The selection process was changed to adjust the racial composition of the school.
It discarded merit for race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Once again, if you can just buy your way into TJ, why aren't there more white kids there?

Because they aren’t as driven by national rankings? Not as interested in STEM or a grind HS experience?

It was well known in my affluent area that you could greatly improve chances of admissions by paying $$$ for prep classes.

It’s a choice that affluent families had.

20 years ago, TJ was majority white. Did they suddenly develop a disdain STEM and competitive high schools over the last 4 years? Or did they get crowded out?

Not so suddenly, but yes, there has been less push for kids to attend ultra competitive environments. The number of white applicants has been declining over the years.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

I haven't looked at all years, but during previous thread I looked at the numbers for class of 2015.
56% of all Asian 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
99% of them did apply

45% of all white 8th graders in FCPS were eligible to apply to TJ
49% of them did apply


FWIW, 92% of eligible black 8th graders in FCPS that year applied.

Here are the numbers.

Only half of eligible white students applied (vs 99% of Asian students). They don’t want the competitive environment.

I was a STEM kid at a competitive HS who went on to a T10 program. I intentionally did not encourage my kids to go to TJ.

The eligibility criteria were laughably low. I think the GPA requirement was like a 3.0.

There was a time when TJ was majority white, the white kids didn't leave, they got pushed out.
See this chart by the college board showing that 22% of asian kids geta 750 or higher on the math section of the SAT. That number if 4% for whites.
23% of asians get a 1400 SAT score or higher, that number if 7% for whites kids
9% of asians get a 1500 SAT score or higher, than number is 2% for white kids
White kids are clearly trying to get good SAT scores but they cannot seem to do so at the same rate as asians.

The white kids weren't foregoing tjhsst because they didn't want to deal with the competitive environment. They couldn't get in and they knew it so they didn't try.

Yes, as the prep wars escalated, many were pushed out because it just wasn't worth spending $20k on prep to ensure admissions.

$20K on prep? Pfft, this isn't travel ball.

I don't know exactly how much curie is but it looks like a couple thousand a year at most and the test prep is $300.
This is just more racist rationalization trying to explain why asians are outperforming white kids all over the country and at every income level.

For the “signature program” it’s $7k for all 4 semesters. More if you start your kid before 7th grade.

“Curie Learning’s Signature Level 7/8 Program
This program incorporates high-level coursework in math, English, writing, science, and critical thinking, with a focus on preparation for success in high school and college. This program will help students to not only prepare for any advanced institutions such as AOS/AET and TJ, but also to succeed and even thrive in any high school and later in any college/university.

Semester 1: (4 classes/month) $1,095.00 Aug. 25th, 2023 - Dec.19th, 2023
*Semester 2: (7 classes/month) $1,850.00 Jan. 2nd, 2024 - June 23rd, 2024
Additional $300 for extra classes for new students. (Mandatory)
Semester 3 (option 1): (8-11 classes/month) $1,850.00 + $300 (TJ/AOS/AET Extra Prep classes):
Jul.8th, 2024 - Dec 2024
Semester 3 (option 2): (7 classes/month) $1,200.00 Sept 2023 - Dec 2023
Semester 4: (6 classes/month) $1,600.00 Jan 2024-Jun 2024”

So about $280/month?
That's not nothing but it doesn't seem like a rich kid program.

Can't argue with success. Their ad in the paper showed that one-third of TJ's entering class were their customers.

When a huge portion of the admitted class comes from an expensive test prep company then you know something is wrong.


For many years, people have been appalled at how a public school magnet excluded so many groups in the community. The class of 2024 had less than 1% (0.6%) of the students from low-income families. Very little representation from URMs and MSs with many low-income families. TJ was mostly filled with kids from affluent "feeder" middle schools.

FCPS has changed the TJ admissions process multiple times over the years to address systemic inequalities.
https://www.fcag.org/tjadmissions.shtml

Expensive test prep has also been an ongoing issue that exacerbated the lack of representation from certain MSs and groups.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination/
“Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” [school board member] Megan McLaughlin asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”

"McLaughlin, like other board members, still worries about Washington’s booming test-prep industry. Modeled on Korean “cram” schools, classes meet after school, on weekends, and throughout the summer. “They’ve become professionals at that process of getting into TJ,” says Josh Silverman, a private tutor in the area."


Paying to have access to previous test questions on an NDA-protected test provides an unfair advantage to wealthy kids in admissions for this public school program.

LOL.

You just do not have a basic understanding of math. That is ok. Just funny someone like that talks about TJHSST.

25+% is a huge portion (133/486) coming from a single test prep company given the size of the region.

Happy to help explain basic math to you at any point.

It is not a problem when 30% of the applying students take the single test prep company's admissions course. It tells you that someone who is taking the class has a lower odds of getting in compared to not taking the said company's class.

Say 2500 apply to TJ and 1000 of them take this single test prep company's admissions course. If say 150 of this company class get admission that is an admit rate of 15%. If the other 300 students are admitted from the 1500 students who did not take the course, that is an admit rate of 20%. Then it is not a problem.

The said company is preying on insecurities of a group, fleecing them, and needlessly harming kids. But that is not really a problem for TJ admissions.

That in itself would be very problematic. 1/3rd of all applicants go to this one prep company? Yikes.

The test prep industry is deepening inequities.

Where did you get the #s of Curie kids per application cycle? 1000 8th graders are in the signature class?

This would be true if you ignored the research in the area.
Tests reflect ability not income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s fun to try to blame wealthy people as cheaters. That’s just a distraction and coping mechanism for the real issue. the real issue is URM test performance across the board, including at the new TJ.

For those against equity policies, the TJ admissions changes are showing in real time the results from PSAT to SOLs to math levels. And the results aren’t good.

Now I dont necessarily disagree with opening TJ for all, but let’s not pretend the URMs weren’t getting in before because cheaters. URMs perform measurably worse than their non-URM peers. Otherwise we wouldn’t be addressing those gaps all the time in various academic environs.

That still hasn’t changed. Yes even for URMs at TJ, the gaps still persist.

Expensive test prep has also been an ongoing issue that exacerbated the lack of representation from many MSs and groups.

Sorry. Those rich kids would have outperformed URMs without the prep. This is just a basic fact of education in the US for the last 50 years. It’s not the prep. Sure prep may make the gap a bit bigger, but it’s not the reason for the gap.

It’s parents. Always has been.

Yes, that’s why I said “exacerbated”.

Kids can’t choose their parents.

That’s the gap in the score. Not attendance. URMs haven’t been able to fill out roles at TJ or close the gap in average schools across the country for ever. The admissions change was not about test prep; it was about accepting reality.

Does extensive test prep (including access to prior quant-q questions) increase the chance of admissions? Yes.

It exacerbates the problem. It widens the gap.

I don’t think you understand.

Poor kids were never getting in over rich kids regardless of prep. The gaps are too large without the prep. Rich kid test prep just pushes out hard working middle class kids.

now it’s prepped kids and bonus point kids

None of this is prohibitive for middle class kids.
Curie is like maybe $2k-$4k/year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I have found interesting is that under the previous regime, E Asians (e.g., China, Korea, Taiwan, Japan) were not over-represented and SE Asians (e.g., Singapore, Malaysia, Viet Nam, Thailand) were not over-represented. Yet, both sets of ethnic groups are known to be very academically focused, with after school tutoring at hone or in a center other than Curie being fairly common.

Only S Asians were over-represented at TJHSST under the previous admissions regime, and Curie clearly targeted the S Asian parents. Curious correlation.

I thought East-Asians have been over-represented since TJ opened in 1985. It's just that there weren't that many Asians in Fairfax back then so TJ was mostly white until maybe 2012 or so.
The class of 2024 looks like East-Asians were definitely over-represented relative to the population in the county.

South Asians are just the latest in a long line of over-achieving immigrants that are labelled cheater because white people cannot fathom how these people with thick accents could possibly be smarter than them. These same people just stopped accusing East-Asians of cheating like 10 minutes ago.

None of these groups are smarter than any others. Some just tend to have more resources than others.