Columbia permanently pulls out of US news

[Anonymous]

The Math prof recommends these:

College applicants are much better advised to rely on government websites like College Navigator and College Scorecard, which compare specific aspects of specific schools. A broad categorization of institutions, like the Carnegie Classification, may also be helpful — for it is perfectly true that some colleges are simply in a different league from others — but this is a far cry from a linear ranking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a thought experiment, I'd like to see every department in the top 200 colleges ranked by some broad brush, focused on this "merit" argument. Let's see average SAT by degree by college. CS kids at even mid-range CS programs like Santa Clara would come out above a lot of liberal arts kids at ivy schools.

I'm a liberal arts proponent - I just think the "merit" thing is bullshit. No, your drama kid at Brown is not more meritorious than a CS kid at Cal Poly SLO.

At the top ivies, including Columbia, the test score cut-off is 1550 unless you're a recruited athlete or something. The difference between that and 1600 is only a few questions. So it's sort of splitting hairs at the top tail of the SAT distribution.

But I agree on the merit of a CS at Caltech. The drama kids did need a 1550 to get into their ivy, but in terms of sheer brain power it's no contest.

NP.

You are correct. The average SAT score for Columbia is generally around 1500-1560 depending on year and number of hooks.

However the average sat score for Columbia GS is around 1450. One of the things that Columbia wants to avoid is including the GS because it would the add fuel to the fire that Columbia is the weakest Ivy and has significantly lower stats that the schools it wants to be considered peers with, as opposed to the school it truly is a peer to.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/colleges/columbia-university/admissions#:~:text=Columbia%20University%20is%20extremely%20selective,applications%20are%20due%20January%201.
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Columbia-University--School-of-General-Studies-sat-scores-GPA#:~:text=The%20average%20SAT%20score%20composite,General%20Studies%20is%20a%201450.

Columbia should get rid of GS. Why it includes a separate undergrad college that other top colleges do not have? The only real reason I can see is for $$$

can someone explain to me what exactly "General Studies" is? I have never heard of this major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a thought experiment, I'd like to see every department in the top 200 colleges ranked by some broad brush, focused on this "merit" argument. Let's see average SAT by degree by college. CS kids at even mid-range CS programs like Santa Clara would come out above a lot of liberal arts kids at ivy schools.

I'm a liberal arts proponent - I just think the "merit" thing is bullshit. No, your drama kid at Brown is not more meritorious than a CS kid at Cal Poly SLO.

At the top ivies, including Columbia, the test score cut-off is 1550 unless you're a recruited athlete or something. The difference between that and 1600 is only a few questions. So it's sort of splitting hairs at the top tail of the SAT distribution.

But I agree on the merit of a CS at Caltech. The drama kids did need a 1550 to get into their ivy, but in terms of sheer brain power it's no contest.

NP.

You are correct. The average SAT score for Columbia is generally around 1500-1560 depending on year and number of hooks.

However the average sat score for Columbia GS is around 1450. One of the things that Columbia wants to avoid is including the GS because it would the add fuel to the fire that Columbia is the weakest Ivy and has significantly lower stats that the schools it wants to be considered peers with, as opposed to the school it truly is a peer to.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/colleges/columbia-university/admissions#:~:text=Columbia%20University%20is%20extremely%20selective,applications%20are%20due%20January%201.
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Columbia-University--School-of-General-Studies-sat-scores-GPA#:~:text=The%20average%20SAT%20score%20composite,General%20Studies%20is%20a%201450.

Columbia should get rid of GS. Why it includes a separate undergrad college that other top colleges do not have? The only real reason I can see is for $$$

can someone explain to me what exactly "General Studies" is? I have never heard of this major.

https://www.gs.columbia.edu

"The School of General Studies of Columbia University is the finest liberal arts college in the United States created specifically for returning and nontraditional students seeking a rigorous, traditional, Ivy League undergraduate degree full or part time.

GS is also home to innovative dual and joint degree programs open to all students, including those applying directly from high school, in partnership with List College of the Jewish Theological Seminary, Sciences Po, Trinity College Dublin, Tel Aviv University, and City University of Hong Kong."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly I’m so interested in this, as the parent of two kids at highly selective schools and being near retirement, that I’m tempted to write Prof Thaddeus and offer to take this on. I have some great math and research qualifications. But I suspect he’s already on it.

Should I add that I am at least as interested in what alternative could be helpful to students and families. Thaddeus has said he doesn’t think USNWR is redeemable. What else is there?

Here is the problem that almost nobody seems to understand...you can look at WSJ, Forbes and other college rankings...but guess what. They all basically match the USNWR rankings with the schools just reordered a tiny bit.

Everyone thinks that some amazing, unbiased ranking will come out and magically rank schools significantly differently...but they won't.

Because most top schools are actually great. I will say some schools are ranked much lower on WAJ than USnews like the UCs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a thought experiment, I'd like to see every department in the top 200 colleges ranked by some broad brush, focused on this "merit" argument. Let's see average SAT by degree by college. CS kids at even mid-range CS programs like Santa Clara would come out above a lot of liberal arts kids at ivy schools.

I'm a liberal arts proponent - I just think the "merit" thing is bullshit. No, your drama kid at Brown is not more meritorious than a CS kid at Cal Poly SLO.

At the top ivies, including Columbia, the test score cut-off is 1550 unless you're a recruited athlete or something. The difference between that and 1600 is only a few questions. So it's sort of splitting hairs at the top tail of the SAT distribution.

But I agree on the merit of a CS at Caltech. The drama kids did need a 1550 to get into their ivy, but in terms of sheer brain power it's no contest.

NP.

You are correct. The average SAT score for Columbia is generally around 1500-1560 depending on year and number of hooks.

However the average sat score for Columbia GS is around 1450. One of the things that Columbia wants to avoid is including the GS because it would the add fuel to the fire that Columbia is the weakest Ivy and has significantly lower stats that the schools it wants to be considered peers with, as opposed to the school it truly is a peer to.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/colleges/columbia-university/admissions#:~:text=Columbia%20University%20is%20extremely%20selective,applications%20are%20due%20January%201.
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Columbia-University--School-of-General-Studies-sat-scores-GPA#:~:text=The%20average%20SAT%20score%20composite,General%20Studies%20is%20a%201450.

Columbia should get rid of GS. Why it includes a separate undergrad college that other top colleges do not have? The only real reason I can see is for $$$

can someone explain to me what exactly "General Studies" is? I have never heard of this major.

https://www.gs.columbia.edu

"The School of General Studies of Columbia University is the finest liberal arts college in the United States created specifically for returning and nontraditional students seeking a rigorous, traditional, Ivy League undergraduate degree full or part time.

GS is also home to innovative dual and joint degree programs open to all students, including those applying directly from high school, in partnership with List College of the Jewish Theological Seminary, Sciences Po, Trinity College Dublin, Tel Aviv University, and City University of Hong Kong."

The former is what people extol because it offers an education to non-traditional students

The latter is what some people seem to be suggesting is a "side door" for HS students to ultimately get a Columbia degree without going through the normal admissions process. I know at least one graduating senior who is doing one of those dual degree programs, but I don't know that he wouldn't have gotten in normally. He seemed excited about going to Tel Aviv for two years and coming out with a degree from both Tel Aviv and Columbia. Two years in another country is an awfully long time for someone just to get an Ivy degree in the end, but I suppose some might be willing to do that. Seems like you could do the same thing just by transferring, but this gives you a guaranteed Columbia degree in the end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a thought experiment, I'd like to see every department in the top 200 colleges ranked by some broad brush, focused on this "merit" argument. Let's see average SAT by degree by college. CS kids at even mid-range CS programs like Santa Clara would come out above a lot of liberal arts kids at ivy schools.

I'm a liberal arts proponent - I just think the "merit" thing is bullshit. No, your drama kid at Brown is not more meritorious than a CS kid at Cal Poly SLO.

At the top ivies, including Columbia, the test score cut-off is 1550 unless you're a recruited athlete or something. The difference between that and 1600 is only a few questions. So it's sort of splitting hairs at the top tail of the SAT distribution.

But I agree on the merit of a CS at Caltech. The drama kids did need a 1550 to get into their ivy, but in terms of sheer brain power it's no contest.

NP.

You are correct. The average SAT score for Columbia is generally around 1500-1560 depending on year and number of hooks.

However the average sat score for Columbia GS is around 1450. One of the things that Columbia wants to avoid is including the GS because it would the add fuel to the fire that Columbia is the weakest Ivy and has significantly lower stats that the schools it wants to be considered peers with, as opposed to the school it truly is a peer to.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/colleges/columbia-university/admissions#:~:text=Columbia%20University%20is%20extremely%20selective,applications%20are%20due%20January%201.
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Columbia-University--School-of-General-Studies-sat-scores-GPA#:~:text=The%20average%20SAT%20score%20composite,General%20Studies%20is%20a%201450.

Columbia should get rid of GS. Why it includes a separate undergrad college that other top colleges do not have? The only real reason I can see is for $$$

Many colleges have returning education programs. They started with night schools that were particularly geared towards helping working adults who never completed their education to get degrees. But later, they have expanded to include daytime programs, some of which are particularly rigorous and designed to help people transition to new careers. I have hired people who came out of similar programs from UMD (as one example) and they have a reasonable skill level for entry level positions.

There are many folks who for one reason or another did not complete a college degree and want to get one to have better career opportunities. There are also many who completed one degree but they don't like their career path, or they took a break from their career (like SAHP) who want a new degree to change their career path. There are lots of reasons why programs like these are needed and good to have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a thought experiment, I'd like to see every department in the top 200 colleges ranked by some broad brush, focused on this "merit" argument. Let's see average SAT by degree by college. CS kids at even mid-range CS programs like Santa Clara would come out above a lot of liberal arts kids at ivy schools.

I'm a liberal arts proponent - I just think the "merit" thing is bullshit. No, your drama kid at Brown is not more meritorious than a CS kid at Cal Poly SLO.

At the top ivies, including Columbia, the test score cut-off is 1550 unless you're a recruited athlete or something. The difference between that and 1600 is only a few questions. So it's sort of splitting hairs at the top tail of the SAT distribution.

But I agree on the merit of a CS at Caltech. The drama kids did need a 1550 to get into their ivy, but in terms of sheer brain power it's no contest.

NP.

You are correct. The average SAT score for Columbia is generally around 1500-1560 depending on year and number of hooks.

However the average sat score for Columbia GS is around 1450. One of the things that Columbia wants to avoid is including the GS because it would the add fuel to the fire that Columbia is the weakest Ivy and has significantly lower stats that the schools it wants to be considered peers with, as opposed to the school it truly is a peer to.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/colleges/columbia-university/admissions#:~:text=Columbia%20University%20is%20extremely%20selective,applications%20are%20due%20January%201.
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Columbia-University--School-of-General-Studies-sat-scores-GPA#:~:text=The%20average%20SAT%20score%20composite,General%20Studies%20is%20a%201450.

Columbia should get rid of GS. Why it includes a separate undergrad college that other top colleges do not have? The only real reason I can see is for $$$

can someone explain to me what exactly "General Studies" is? I have never heard of this major.

https://www.gs.columbia.edu

"The School of General Studies of Columbia University is the finest liberal arts college in the United States created specifically for returning and nontraditional students seeking a rigorous, traditional, Ivy League undergraduate degree full or part time.

GS is also home to innovative dual and joint degree programs open to all students, including those applying directly from high school, in partnership with List College of the Jewish Theological Seminary, Sciences Po, Trinity College Dublin, Tel Aviv University, and City University of Hong Kong."

The former is what people extol because it offers an education to non-traditional students

The latter is what some people seem to be suggesting is a "side door" for HS students to ultimately get a Columbia degree without going through the normal admissions process. I know at least one graduating senior who is doing one of those dual degree programs, but I don't know that he wouldn't have gotten in normally. He seemed excited about going to Tel Aviv for two years and coming out with a degree from both Tel Aviv and Columbia. Two years in another country is an awfully long time for someone just to get an Ivy degree in the end, but I suppose some might be willing to do that. Seems like you could do the same thing just by transferring, but this gives you a guaranteed Columbia degree in the end.

And yet it's these "side-door" students spending two years elsewhere who disprove the complaint that GS students take the same classes as everybody else.

I agree that educating non-traditional students is a valuable mission and it shouldn't be penalized by rankings systems.

Let's face it, the USNWR is targeted at high school juniors and their families, i.e. at the "traditional" straight-out-of-high-school students. In which case GS doesn't seem like it belongs in a rankings system anyway. Columbia College and SEAS are targeted at traditional students, and it seems like that's the group that should be compared to similar "traditional student" groups at other colleges.

[Anonymous]

Most people knew university's pecking order long before US News came out with this gimmick to save their worthless mag. It's unnecessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a thought experiment, I'd like to see every department in the top 200 colleges ranked by some broad brush, focused on this "merit" argument. Let's see average SAT by degree by college. CS kids at even mid-range CS programs like Santa Clara would come out above a lot of liberal arts kids at ivy schools.

I'm a liberal arts proponent - I just think the "merit" thing is bullshit. No, your drama kid at Brown is not more meritorious than a CS kid at Cal Poly SLO.

At the top ivies, including Columbia, the test score cut-off is 1550 unless you're a recruited athlete or something. The difference between that and 1600 is only a few questions. So it's sort of splitting hairs at the top tail of the SAT distribution.

But I agree on the merit of a CS at Caltech. The drama kids did need a 1550 to get into their ivy, but in terms of sheer brain power it's no contest.

NP.

You are correct. The average SAT score for Columbia is generally around 1500-1560 depending on year and number of hooks.

However the average sat score for Columbia GS is around 1450. One of the things that Columbia wants to avoid is including the GS because it would the add fuel to the fire that Columbia is the weakest Ivy and has significantly lower stats that the schools it wants to be considered peers with, as opposed to the school it truly is a peer to.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/colleges/columbia-university/admissions#:~:text=Columbia%20University%20is%20extremely%20selective,applications%20are%20due%20January%201.
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Columbia-University--School-of-General-Studies-sat-scores-GPA#:~:text=The%20average%20SAT%20score%20composite,General%20Studies%20is%20a%201450.

Columbia should get rid of GS. Why it includes a separate undergrad college that other top colleges do not have? The only real reason I can see is for $$$

can someone explain to me what exactly "General Studies" is? I have never heard of this major.

https://www.gs.columbia.edu

"The School of General Studies of Columbia University is the finest liberal arts college in the United States created specifically for returning and nontraditional students seeking a rigorous, traditional, Ivy League undergraduate degree full or part time.

GS is also home to innovative dual and joint degree programs open to all students, including those applying directly from high school, in partnership with List College of the Jewish Theological Seminary, Sciences Po, Trinity College Dublin, Tel Aviv University, and City University of Hong Kong."

The former is what people extol because it offers an education to non-traditional students

The latter is what some people seem to be suggesting is a "side door" for HS students to ultimately get a Columbia degree without going through the normal admissions process. I know at least one graduating senior who is doing one of those dual degree programs, but I don't know that he wouldn't have gotten in normally. He seemed excited about going to Tel Aviv for two years and coming out with a degree from both Tel Aviv and Columbia. Two years in another country is an awfully long time for someone just to get an Ivy degree in the end, but I suppose some might be willing to do that. Seems like you could do the same thing just by transferring, but this gives you a guaranteed Columbia degree in the end.

And yet it's these "side-door" students spending two years elsewhere who disprove the complaint that GS students take the same classes as everybody else.

I agree that educating non-traditional students is a valuable mission and it shouldn't be penalized by rankings systems.

Let's face it, the USNWR is targeted at high school juniors and their families, i.e. at the "traditional" straight-out-of-high-school students. In which case GS doesn't seem like it belongs in a rankings system anyway. Columbia College and SEAS are targeted at traditional students, and it seems like that's the group that should be compared to similar "traditional student" groups at other colleges.

It's the Columbia that integrates the two.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most people knew university's pecking order long before US News came out with this gimmick to save their worthless mag. It's unnecessary.

Most people didn't know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most people knew university's pecking order long before US News came out with this gimmick to save their worthless mag. It's unnecessary.

Most people didn't know.

We had universities before the founding of the nation.

Europe had universities since 1088.

People in many countries know how their universities stack up without US News.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a thought experiment, I'd like to see every department in the top 200 colleges ranked by some broad brush, focused on this "merit" argument. Let's see average SAT by degree by college. CS kids at even mid-range CS programs like Santa Clara would come out above a lot of liberal arts kids at ivy schools.

I'm a liberal arts proponent - I just think the "merit" thing is bullshit. No, your drama kid at Brown is not more meritorious than a CS kid at Cal Poly SLO.

At the top ivies, including Columbia, the test score cut-off is 1550 unless you're a recruited athlete or something. The difference between that and 1600 is only a few questions. So it's sort of splitting hairs at the top tail of the SAT distribution.

But I agree on the merit of a CS at Caltech. The drama kids did need a 1550 to get into their ivy, but in terms of sheer brain power it's no contest.

NP.

You are correct. The average SAT score for Columbia is generally around 1500-1560 depending on year and number of hooks.

However the average sat score for Columbia GS is around 1450. One of the things that Columbia wants to avoid is including the GS because it would the add fuel to the fire that Columbia is the weakest Ivy and has significantly lower stats that the schools it wants to be considered peers with, as opposed to the school it truly is a peer to.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/colleges/columbia-university/admissions#:~:text=Columbia%20University%20is%20extremely%20selective,applications%20are%20due%20January%201.
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Columbia-University--School-of-General-Studies-sat-scores-GPA#:~:text=The%20average%20SAT%20score%20composite,General%20Studies%20is%20a%201450.

Columbia should get rid of GS. Why it includes a separate undergrad college that other top colleges do not have? The only real reason I can see is for $$$

can someone explain to me what exactly "General Studies" is? I have never heard of this major.

https://www.gs.columbia.edu

"The School of General Studies of Columbia University is the finest liberal arts college in the United States created specifically for returning and nontraditional students seeking a rigorous, traditional, Ivy League undergraduate degree full or part time.

GS is also home to innovative dual and joint degree programs open to all students, including those applying directly from high school, in partnership with List College of the Jewish Theological Seminary, Sciences Po, Trinity College Dublin, Tel Aviv University, and City University of Hong Kong."

Is this like a "gen ed" degree? Seems pointless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a thought experiment, I'd like to see every department in the top 200 colleges ranked by some broad brush, focused on this "merit" argument. Let's see average SAT by degree by college. CS kids at even mid-range CS programs like Santa Clara would come out above a lot of liberal arts kids at ivy schools.

I'm a liberal arts proponent - I just think the "merit" thing is bullshit. No, your drama kid at Brown is not more meritorious than a CS kid at Cal Poly SLO.

At the top ivies, including Columbia, the test score cut-off is 1550 unless you're a recruited athlete or something. The difference between that and 1600 is only a few questions. So it's sort of splitting hairs at the top tail of the SAT distribution.

But I agree on the merit of a CS at Caltech. The drama kids did need a 1550 to get into their ivy, but in terms of sheer brain power it's no contest.

NP.

You are correct. The average SAT score for Columbia is generally around 1500-1560 depending on year and number of hooks.

However the average sat score for Columbia GS is around 1450. One of the things that Columbia wants to avoid is including the GS because it would the add fuel to the fire that Columbia is the weakest Ivy and has significantly lower stats that the schools it wants to be considered peers with, as opposed to the school it truly is a peer to.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/colleges/columbia-university/admissions#:~:text=Columbia%20University%20is%20extremely%20selective,applications%20are%20due%20January%201.
https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Columbia-University--School-of-General-Studies-sat-scores-GPA#:~:text=The%20average%20SAT%20score%20composite,General%20Studies%20is%20a%201450.

Columbia should get rid of GS. Why it includes a separate undergrad college that other top colleges do not have? The only real reason I can see is for $$$

can someone explain to me what exactly "General Studies" is? I have never heard of this major.

https://www.gs.columbia.edu

"The School of General Studies of Columbia University is the finest liberal arts college in the United States created specifically for returning and nontraditional students seeking a rigorous, traditional, Ivy League undergraduate degree full or part time.

GS is also home to innovative dual and joint degree programs open to all students, including those applying directly from high school, in partnership with List College of the Jewish Theological Seminary, Sciences Po, Trinity College Dublin, Tel Aviv University, and City University of Hong Kong."

The former is what people extol because it offers an education to non-traditional students

The latter is what some people seem to be suggesting is a "side door" for HS students to ultimately get a Columbia degree without going through the normal admissions process. I know at least one graduating senior who is doing one of those dual degree programs, but I don't know that he wouldn't have gotten in normally. He seemed excited about going to Tel Aviv for two years and coming out with a degree from both Tel Aviv and Columbia. Two years in another country is an awfully long time for someone just to get an Ivy degree in the end, but I suppose some might be willing to do that. Seems like you could do the same thing just by transferring, but this gives you a guaranteed Columbia degree in the end.

And yet it's these "side-door" students spending two years elsewhere who disprove the complaint that GS students take the same classes as everybody else.

I agree that educating non-traditional students is a valuable mission and it shouldn't be penalized by rankings systems.

Let's face it, the USNWR is targeted at high school juniors and their families, i.e. at the "traditional" straight-out-of-high-school students. In which case GS doesn't seem like it belongs in a rankings system anyway. Columbia College and SEAS are targeted at traditional students, and it seems like that's the group that should be compared to similar "traditional student" groups at other colleges.

It's the Columbia that integrates the two.

Then why has NYU-Is-Better-Than-Columbia wasted multiple pages calling for Columbia to integrate GS? I guess NIBTC didn't understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most people knew university's pecking order long before US News came out with this gimmick to save their worthless mag. It's unnecessary.

Seriously. USNWR would have gone under without the college rankings.

[Anonymous]

GS had more Rhodes scholarships than CC one year recently. It's nothing like an extension school and it's not a gen ed degree. You have a major, you take same classes with all other Columbia students. You just can't come directly out of HS. Faculty loves the GS students, which isn't surprising.