And I feel teachers are more overworked than underpaid.
Teacher here and I wholeheartedly agree. I posted upthread that I would take fewer responsibilities over more money. I’m on hour 7 of work today (Sunday). Good thing I have DCUM for brain breaks.
And I feel teachers are more overworked than underpaid.
Teacher here and I wholeheartedly agree. I posted upthread that I would take fewer responsibilities over more money. I’m on hour 7 of work today (Sunday). Good thing I have DCUM for brain breaks.
+1
I also posted upthread about pay not being a top issue.
Was this thread even started by a teacher or a nurse?
Anonymous wrote:Teachers and nurses is SoCal make about $100k a year.
Starting salaries?
Salaries for public sector jobs are quite high in California. Plus, there are many incentives for hard-to-fill jobs. Go to the Transparent California website.
I just went to that website. It really doesn't give much information. I randomly picked districts in the counites of Alameda and San Diego. It doesn't show if they are full or part-time or years of experience. There are employees listed as "Teacher" who are listed in the $20k's that I assume are part-time.
Geez. Then why are so many places looking to hire nurses, and perpetually short of staff? Nursing is an intense cognitive, physical, and psychological challenge. At least bedside is, and that’s the main places nurses are underpaid, as evidenced by the failure to retain experienced staff. But let’s just pump out more new nurses, so we can continue having nurses work bedside for 2-3 years and then leave the profession or, sometimes, that practice area.
Nobody thinks they need to care until they’re surprised to have a loved one in the hospital and then, believe me, the shortage of experienced staff will impact you negatively. Nurse, who had a loved one hospitalized this summer.
Most bedside nursing isn't rocket science and is not an intense cognitive chalenge. ICUs at academic medical centers, maybe. But floor nursing, no.
Geez. Then why are so many places looking to hire nurses, and perpetually short of staff? Nursing is an intense cognitive, physical, and psychological challenge. At least bedside is, and that’s the main places nurses are underpaid, as evidenced by the failure to retain experienced staff. But let’s just pump out more new nurses, so we can continue having nurses work bedside for 2-3 years and then leave the profession or, sometimes, that practice area.
Nobody thinks they need to care until they’re surprised to have a loved one in the hospital and then, believe me, the shortage of experienced staff will impact you negatively. Nurse, who had a loved one hospitalized this summer.
Most bedside nursing isn't rocket science and is not an intense cognitive chalenge. ICUs at academic medical centers, maybe. But floor nursing, no.
I wonder if this is the same poster who was quick to insult teachers earlier in the thread. It’s the same MO: insult the intellect of people in the profession. I’m not a nurse, but I have no difficulty imagining how challenging bedside nursing must be. Nurses on this thread, please ignore the PP. Most of us respect the challenge of your job and are grateful you do it.
Geez. Then why are so many places looking to hire nurses, and perpetually short of staff? Nursing is an intense cognitive, physical, and psychological challenge. At least bedside is, and that’s the main places nurses are underpaid, as evidenced by the failure to retain experienced staff. But let’s just pump out more new nurses, so we can continue having nurses work bedside for 2-3 years and then leave the profession or, sometimes, that practice area.
Nobody thinks they need to care until they’re surprised to have a loved one in the hospital and then, believe me, the shortage of experienced staff will impact you negatively. Nurse, who had a loved one hospitalized this summer.
Most bedside nursing isn't rocket science and is not an intense cognitive chalenge. ICUs at academic medical centers, maybe. But floor nursing, no.
I wonder if this is the same poster who was quick to insult teachers earlier in the thread. It’s the same MO: insult the intellect of people in the profession. I’m not a nurse, but I have no difficulty imagining how challenging bedside nursing must be. Nurses on this thread, please ignore the PP. Most of us respect the challenge of your job and are grateful you do it.
Or she’s an ICU nurse. Some have big egos/look down on other specialities.
Anonymous wrote:I actually view many areas of nursing as quite overpaid as compared to physician pay.
This is ridiculous and doesn't make sense. Physicians make far more (as they should as both the amount of years of education required and the responsibility is much higher). How can you say nurses are overpaid comparatively?
Geez. Then why are so many places looking to hire nurses, and perpetually short of staff? Nursing is an intense cognitive, physical, and psychological challenge. At least bedside is, and that’s the main places nurses are underpaid, as evidenced by the failure to retain experienced staff. But let’s just pump out more new nurses, so we can continue having nurses work bedside for 2-3 years and then leave the profession or, sometimes, that practice area.
Nobody thinks they need to care until they’re surprised to have a loved one in the hospital and then, believe me, the shortage of experienced staff will impact you negatively. Nurse, who had a loved one hospitalized this summer.
Most bedside nursing isn't rocket science and is not an intense cognitive chalenge. ICUs at academic medical centers, maybe. But floor nursing, no.
I can unfortunately say I used to think this until I returned to school for nursing. I have a bachelor's degree in another subject and mistakenly thought getting a second bachelor's in nursing and being a nurse wouldn't be too difficult as I'm a reasonably intelligent person and my initial bachelor's was from a very good university. I have been very humbled. I don't think a lot of people have a clue how challenging it can be. I was clueless until I experienced it first hand.
Geez. Then why are so many places looking to hire nurses, and perpetually short of staff? Nursing is an intense cognitive, physical, and psychological challenge. At least bedside is, and that’s the main places nurses are underpaid, as evidenced by the failure to retain experienced staff. But let’s just pump out more new nurses, so we can continue having nurses work bedside for 2-3 years and then leave the profession or, sometimes, that practice area.
Nobody thinks they need to care until they’re surprised to have a loved one in the hospital and then, believe me, the shortage of experienced staff will impact you negatively. Nurse, who had a loved one hospitalized this summer.
Most bedside nursing isn't rocket science and is not an intense cognitive chalenge. ICUs at academic medical centers, maybe. But floor nursing, no.
Right and I am sure your WFH desk job is an "intense cognitive challenge." Perhaps lives are on the line as well.
Geez. Then why are so many places looking to hire nurses, and perpetually short of staff? Nursing is an intense cognitive, physical, and psychological challenge. At least bedside is, and that’s the main places nurses are underpaid, as evidenced by the failure to retain experienced staff. But let’s just pump out more new nurses, so we can continue having nurses work bedside for 2-3 years and then leave the profession or, sometimes, that practice area.
Nobody thinks they need to care until they’re surprised to have a loved one in the hospital and then, believe me, the shortage of experienced staff will impact you negatively. Nurse, who had a loved one hospitalized this summer.
Most bedside nursing isn't rocket science and is not an intense cognitive chalenge. ICUs at academic medical centers, maybe. But floor nursing, no.
Right and I am sure your WFH desk job is an "intense cognitive challenge." Perhaps lives are on the line as well.
Geez. Then why are so many places looking to hire nurses, and perpetually short of staff? Nursing is an intense cognitive, physical, and psychological challenge. At least bedside is, and that’s the main places nurses are underpaid, as evidenced by the failure to retain experienced staff. But let’s just pump out more new nurses, so we can continue having nurses work bedside for 2-3 years and then leave the profession or, sometimes, that practice area.
Nobody thinks they need to care until they’re surprised to have a loved one in the hospital and then, believe me, the shortage of experienced staff will impact you negatively. Nurse, who had a loved one hospitalized this summer.
Most bedside nursing isn't rocket science and is not an intense cognitive chalenge. ICUs at academic medical centers, maybe. But floor nursing, no.
I wonder if this is the same poster who was quick to insult teachers earlier in the thread. It’s the same MO: insult the intellect of people in the profession. I’m not a nurse, but I have no difficulty imagining how challenging bedside nursing must be. Nurses on this thread, please ignore the PP. Most of us respect the challenge of your job and are grateful you do it.
Work in a hospital a while and meet the nurses. Sure, some are impressive. But the average is well, average.
Anonymous wrote:Considering there are over 3M teachers and 5M nurses in the US that is going to limit the salary. I know most don’t want to believe it but they are common jobs that many many millions could do with some standard training.
What jobs with that type of quantity pay a high salary? Big tech is likely under 100k jobs that pay the big bucks. How many high paid executives are there, likely under 1M. Who would pay these high salaries for 8M workers, the median wage is in the 60-70k range.
Sorry, but that’s simply not true. If teaching really were a job that many millions could do with some standard training, it wouldn’t have such an incredibly high burnout rate in the first 5 years. The truth is, training only gets you so far. You can understand content, but you need to have a collection of personal and interpersonal skills to actually succeed in a classroom. Unfortunately, people who haven’t taught don’t grasp the emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual demands each day brings.
To be a good teacher, you need to be a strong communicator, listener, and collaborator. You need to be adaptable yet organized, patient yet timely, and understanding yet demanding. You need strong presentation skills that can successfully reach a wide variety of audiences. You need to be very good with data, including how to create opportunities to gather accurate data you can subsequently track and organize. You need time management and the ability to hold your hunger and bladder. You need the ability to be at your 100% A game each day, regardless of what is happening in your personal life. You need to be ready to be around (and responsible for) many other people each day without a moment to yourself. Teaching is a 180 day sprint with no real chance to relax until the summer hits. That type of endurance can’t be taught. You have the ability or you don’t.
None of this can be true. How do I know this?
Because during the pandemic all we heard from teachers is that weren’t going to risk getting sick to be a babysitter. Nope, anyone can teach and if students flailed and experienced learning loss, it was because the parents weren’t doing their jobs i.e, being a teacher. In essence teachers convinced struggling parents and students that anyone can teach and being in a classroom was mere babysitting services.
That is the house you built.
Nurses showed up, police showed up, firefighters showed up, hell retail workers saved the day. But teachers? Nope they don’t “babysit “. Own that.
Um… I’m a private school teacher. I showed up. We were only virtual for a couple of months, and then we were in-person for the rest of the pandemic. Want to try again?
My best friend is a public school teacher. She bent over backwards to teach advanced Chem online. I was blown away by the variety of work-arounds she found, including doing AP-level labs at home using common household supplies. She showed ingenuity and a deep concern for her students. You do NOT get to blame a teacher like her for the shortcomings of others. Say “thank you” for the countless hours she put in to successfully teach students virtually and move on.
Is there a way to pay just her more? No? Well, then she’s going to get treated like the rest of the teachers that said parents were perfectly capable of doing the job of the teacher while simultaneously working their own full-time job (sometimes out of the house).
To translate, I believe you just said that the teachers who devote themself wholeheartedly to their students and to the profession, even making unprecedented strides during a pandemic that was not of their causing, deserve all the hostility and hatred coming their way. If I understand correctly, that’s simply because they share a profession with a few lazy teachers you may have witnessed during Covid. I’m sure I also assume correctly that the fact these tremendous, selfless teachers are also working parents with their own needs and concerns means nothing to you. I’m sure there’s no way you can give them any kind words or empathy.
That’s a shame. They would do so for you.
That’s not at all what I said. Quite the opposite. But the unfortunate reality is that the devoted teachers were in the minority in places like the DMV. The unions, which for better or worse speak for the majority of teachers, fought to keep schools closed, telling parents that were capable of teaching their own kids while working their own jobs. The teachers that were willing to acknowledge that was harmful to students and advocate for reopening were few and far between.
It doesn't speak highly for the profession as a whole if they think untrained parents (many of whom lack a college education) can do their jobs effectively in a couple of hours between the end of the day and bedtime.
You can repeat this ad nauseum (as you are) and it will still continue to be a lie every time.
Anonymous wrote:Considering there are over 3M teachers and 5M nurses in the US that is going to limit the salary. I know most don’t want to believe it but they are common jobs that many many millions could do with some standard training.
What jobs with that type of quantity pay a high salary? Big tech is likely under 100k jobs that pay the big bucks. How many high paid executives are there, likely under 1M. Who would pay these high salaries for 8M workers, the median wage is in the 60-70k range.
Sorry, but that’s simply not true. If teaching really were a job that many millions could do with some standard training, it wouldn’t have such an incredibly high burnout rate in the first 5 years. The truth is, training only gets you so far. You can understand content, but you need to have a collection of personal and interpersonal skills to actually succeed in a classroom. Unfortunately, people who haven’t taught don’t grasp the emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual demands each day brings.
To be a good teacher, you need to be a strong communicator, listener, and collaborator. You need to be adaptable yet organized, patient yet timely, and understanding yet demanding. You need strong presentation skills that can successfully reach a wide variety of audiences. You need to be very good with data, including how to create opportunities to gather accurate data you can subsequently track and organize. You need time management and the ability to hold your hunger and bladder. You need the ability to be at your 100% A game each day, regardless of what is happening in your personal life. You need to be ready to be around (and responsible for) many other people each day without a moment to yourself. Teaching is a 180 day sprint with no real chance to relax until the summer hits. That type of endurance can’t be taught. You have the ability or you don’t.
None of this can be true. How do I know this?
Because during the pandemic all we heard from teachers is that weren’t going to risk getting sick to be a babysitter. Nope, anyone can teach and if students flailed and experienced learning loss, it was because the parents weren’t doing their jobs i.e, being a teacher. In essence teachers convinced struggling parents and students that anyone can teach and being in a classroom was mere babysitting services.
That is the house you built.
Nurses showed up, police showed up, firefighters showed up, hell retail workers saved the day. But teachers? Nope they don’t “babysit “. Own that.
Um… I’m a private school teacher. I showed up. We were only virtual for a couple of months, and then we were in-person for the rest of the pandemic. Want to try again?
My best friend is a public school teacher. She bent over backwards to teach advanced Chem online. I was blown away by the variety of work-arounds she found, including doing AP-level labs at home using common household supplies. She showed ingenuity and a deep concern for her students. You do NOT get to blame a teacher like her for the shortcomings of others. Say “thank you” for the countless hours she put in to successfully teach students virtually and move on.
Is there a way to pay just her more? No? Well, then she’s going to get treated like the rest of the teachers that said parents were perfectly capable of doing the job of the teacher while simultaneously working their own full-time job (sometimes out of the house).
To translate, I believe you just said that the teachers who devote themself wholeheartedly to their students and to the profession, even making unprecedented strides during a pandemic that was not of their causing, deserve all the hostility and hatred coming their way. If I understand correctly, that’s simply because they share a profession with a few lazy teachers you may have witnessed during Covid. I’m sure I also assume correctly that the fact these tremendous, selfless teachers are also working parents with their own needs and concerns means nothing to you. I’m sure there’s no way you can give them any kind words or empathy.
That’s a shame. They would do so for you.
That’s not at all what I said. Quite the opposite. But the unfortunate reality is that the devoted teachers were in the minority in places like the DMV. The unions, which for better or worse speak for the majority of teachers, fought to keep schools closed, telling parents that were capable of teaching their own kids while working their own jobs. The teachers that were willing to acknowledge that was harmful to students and advocate for reopening were few and far between.
It doesn't speak highly for the profession as a whole if they think untrained parents (many of whom lack a college education) can do their jobs effectively in a couple of hours between the end of the day and bedtime.
I see a ton of assumptions in this post. You assume devoted teachers were in the minority. You assume the unions spoke for the majority of teachers. You assume that same majority told parents to teach their own children. (Seriously? Who really said that?)
I taught throughout the entire pandemic, most of it in person. I know many teachers, both public and private, and they taught throughout the entire pandemic, too. Perhaps you didn’t like HOW, but guess what? Those teachers had little (if any) power to open schools up for you. Many spent weekends and evenings attending hastily put-together trainings to figure out everything at their disposal to make online learning work. Many teachers did very well, which is remarkable since each new day brought unprecedented challenges. I watched colleagues run drama classes online, producing full-length virtual plays. I watched colleagues run online clubs after school, creatively engaging kids in mystery dinner theater club, “where in the world” geography club, and a host of other quickly-produced ideas to give kids a sense of community. I watched colleagues drive supplies to students’ homes for upcoming units. I watched them host office hours to reteach math, or to go over essays. Where you see only negative, I see innovation and a determination to make the best out of a horrible situation.
I guess you and I will never see eye-to-eye. I don’t assume people have bad intentions and I don’t blame the many for the actions of the few. I’ve had a dreadful doctor who messed up a procedure, but I don’t condemn the entire medical profession. I’ve interacted with a hateful and egotistical lawyer, but I don’t assume all lawyers are despicable humans. Sure, some teachers aren’t great, but most are. I just hope you give the teachers in your life a chance instead of assuming the worst.
Are you forgetting about the threats and acts of (illegal) strikes by teacher’s unions? Who elected the leaders of those unions? How many union members publicly spoke out against the actions of their leaders?
Nope, still not assuming the worst and not blaming the all for the few. That's not how I operate. Your everyday teacher is too busy planning, grading, teaching, attending meetings, and doing 50 other things simulataneously. I couldn't tell you who my union rep is, what they are doing, etc. I'm not even a huge fan of having a union.
I performed admirably during the pandemic. I'm proud of what I accomplished. Your hate can't take that away from me.
You should be more concerned about your colleagues making you look bad. You don’t honestly expect across-the-board pay raises given what we’ve seen in teaching over the last few years, do you?
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
I'm not a teacher but I think focusing on doing a good job teaching is being part of the solution. No, PP can't control "coworkers making you look bad," please.
You don’t seem to understand how unions work.
I have, in fact, been a union rep, so I understand that a) not al teachers are represented by unions, e.g. in VA, and b) not all members of a bargaining unit are active in their union, nor should that be a requirement of any job, the first focus should always be doing the actual job well.
Yes, that should be the first focus. But if your union is protecting bad teachers, blocking pay reform, and fighting attempts to reopen schools, then you should absolutely expect to get grouped together with them. Particularly if you let it happen through inaction.
And you certainly shouldn't be complaining about pay or conditions.
You're absolutely right.
Teachers lost all credibility with their actions and inactions over the last two years, at least in the districts that incredibly kept schools closed and kept saying "no big deal."
God, you are SO BORING. Get off the cross. We need the wood.
Anonymous wrote:As one of the PPs already mentioned, teachers and their unions fought reopening schools tooth and nail during COVID, which cased a disastrous drop in student achievement. For better or worse, by refusing any reasonable proposal to go back to work for so long, teachers lost a lot of public goodwill. So Even if many factors were at play for that leaning loss, it's just not a good look right now for teachers to keep whining how they're npt tp blame and how they deserve ever higher pay increases. How abput teachers first bring up student test scores back to pre-pandemic levels, and then we can talk about more pay?
I see it differently. I saw teachers bending backwards to provide for students in terrible circumstances *that the teachers did not create.* I know many teachers throughout the DMV (which tends to happen when you’ve been in the profession for so long). I can’t think of one… ONE… who vocally fought to keep schools virtual. They were all too busy making virtual learning WORK to waste time getting political.
You are fighting the wrong people. Go after school boards and unions, the ones who actually have a voice and, no, don’t always represent the teachers. I have spoken many times over the years to both the BOE and the union about what I consider are their poor decisions. Again: *teachers* didn’t make these decisions. You’re giving us far more power than we actually have. You are also assuming we have time to drop our busy, overburdened jobs to pick up a political fight.
But a majority of teachers elected those unions who brought about those disastrous results for our kids.
Also, I was talking about public perception. Surely you and your close-knit circle of teacher friends may see it differently. But for better or worse, but many more parents (and the public at large) viewed teachers and their unions has having been blatantly selfish when refusing any reasonable solution to go reopen schools. Again, just thinking about the current public perception here: Now might not be an ideal time to loudly whine about wanting more money while paying no attention to how much our kids are still struggling with the fallout...
No one can control what selfish, entitled parents “perceived.” No one cares.
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