Why are teachers and nurses underpaid?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:A teacher around here can expect to make $90k a few years in for essentially 9 months of work (given the endless summers plus all the other holidays). That means average salaries are really more like $120k on an annualized basis. Plus the value of the pension that will easily bump it to a $130-140k equivalent. Plus generous benefits of all sorts. Pretty good for a union job with 100% job security and where you get to go home at 3pm!

Where is “around here”? How many years are “a few years in”?

This ranks right there with the “retire after 20 years, free healthcare, union negotiated” posts.

Oh give it up, that trope about the underpaid teacher is getting seriously old.

https://www.aei.org/articles/the-truth-about-teacher-pay/

"It is clear that the widely cited 21% teacher salary gap is a meaningless statistic. Furthermore, predictions generated by the underpaid-teacher hypothesis fail to be borne out by the data: Teachers rarely quit their jobs and, when they do, rarely cite low pay as the reason; only a tiny percentage of teachers’ salaries come from second jobs, and that percentage has been falling over time; there is no generalized teacher shortage; most teachers live comfortable middle-class lives; and teaching is not more stressful or time-consuming than the average job. Over and over again, we fail to find evidence that teachers as a group are underpaid.

"It is more likely that workers in public education are on average overpaid, in the sense that they could not earn as much in the private sector. Studies of teachers who switch jobs and comparisons of teaching to other occupations with the same BLS skill requirements suggest that the teacher wage penalty is close to zero. If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

"If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

Just because they're fairly compensated doesn't mean the whining will stop anytime soon. Always some other gripe

Again… please point to the whining?
As teachers, we know what whining sounds like. I haven’t read any on this thread. There is a difference between “whining” and “explaining.”

Then please actually "explain" it instead of just complaining. So far I've only seen a lot of griping how you think you deserve more money. Meanwhile the study cited above shows that teachers are actually compensated quite well relative to other comparable professions.

Actually, if you review this thread, you’ll realize that pay is NOT the major concern of teachers posting here. It’s workload. If you reread, you’ll find teachers explaining they work 3-4 extra hours a night, or all day on Saturdays, etc. They explain that they have half an hour a day allotted for all of the “extras” of teaching: planning, grading, attending meetings, attending trainings, responding to emails, updating data, etc. In fact, you will find at least two different teachers saying that they would prefer a more balanced workload than more pay. I do see posts in which teachers say they would appreciate compensation for the 20 or so extra hours a week, perhaps in the form of overtime. I also see teachers say they think they are fairly compensated for what people THINK the job is, but not necessarily for what it REALLY is.

I don’t see complaining or “griping.” I see people trying to explain to non-educators what the job is like and why people are quitting in droves.

As for the study, that’s once voice. I read the whole thing. It’s remarkably opinionated, and thanks to Covid, woefully out of date. All references to a perceived teacher shortage are no longer relevant because of the tremendous hit Covid had on this profession.

Teaching is no longer a profession that is attractive for the reasons that it once was, which is why there is a shortage. There is no way to pinpoint any one reason and I am sure that the reasons change according to the region. However, there is a shortage and no one can deny that, but how they chose to address it and whether those solutions are successful remains to be seen. The only way that I see to change the tide is to limit the job choices of women so they are again forced to choose from only a couple of careers because let's face it - that's the reason that the profession is dominated by women and also suffers lower than average pay when considering the education required.

The solution is to lesson the workload. That’s the *only* solution. Teachers should get at least half their work day to do the behind-the-scenes work required of the job. Planning, grading, report writing, trainings, correspondence, meetings… right now teachers are supposed to do all of this on their off-hours. It’s unacceptable. Reports from people fleeing the profession rarely mention pay as the reason for leaving. They mention workload and disrespect (from students, parents, and admin). Fix those.

We have plenty of people qualified and able to teach in this country. They just aren’t teaching because they made the easy decision to quit. Get them back by offering better conditions.

I 100% agree. Teachers have remained in a low pay job with increasing workload until they couldn't any longer. I don't think our society is ready to take on the real reasons that teachers are leaving and I remain skeptical about the current solutions.

[Anonymous]

Both professions may continue to have shortages as WFH is increasing in many industries, and those are professions that generally can’t WFH and aren’t very flexible. (Nursing may have flexibility in schedules but they’re always “on” while on their shift.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ummm...they arent. Not for the education and job requirements. Not by a long shot

Well, the shortages prove otherwise. You’re welcome to fill one of the many vacancies in either of these professions. Then you can come back and tell us how lucky you are in terms of workload, pay, and respect.

From a nursing perspective, the pay isn't the issue. It's the stress level and secondary trauma and abuse from patients and their families. We're constantly short staffed and constantly running. I've watched many people die and I've seen some truly insane things that adults have done to children. I've been punched, slapped, kicked and bitten. I've been called many slurs. Nursing takes its toll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ummm...they arent. Not for the education and job requirements. Not by a long shot

Well, the shortages prove otherwise. You’re welcome to fill one of the many vacancies in either of these professions. Then you can come back and tell us how lucky you are in terms of workload, pay, and respect.

From a nursing perspective, the pay isn't the issue. It's the stress level and secondary trauma and abuse from patients and their families. We're constantly short staffed and constantly running. I've watched many people die and I've seen some truly insane things that adults have done to children. I've been punched, slapped, kicked and bitten. I've been called many slurs. Nursing takes its toll.

Aside from the dying part (I got plenty of that when I was an EMT), this is similar to my former world as a self-contained sped teacher.

[Anonymous]

Society doesn’t truly respect caregiving professions or women
—Nurse

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Society doesn’t truly respect caregiving professions or women
—Nurse

+1

And here the argument should rest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A teacher around here can expect to make $90k a few years in for essentially 9 months of work (given the endless summers plus all the other holidays). That means average salaries are really more like $120k on an annualized basis. Plus the value of the pension that will easily bump it to a $130-140k equivalent. Plus generous benefits of all sorts. Pretty good for a union job with 100% job security and where you get to go home at 3pm!

Where is “around here”? How many years are “a few years in”?

This ranks right there with the “retire after 20 years, free healthcare, union negotiated” posts.

This fool knows that their post is inaccurate and they just come on here because they like attention. The reality is they likely lack intelligence and are probably pretty unattractive people, which is why they're on here looking for attention...

The trolling tool never did let us know where their teachers are making $90k a few years in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A teacher around here can expect to make $90k a few years in for essentially 9 months of work (given the endless summers plus all the other holidays). That means average salaries are really more like $120k on an annualized basis. Plus the value of the pension that will easily bump it to a $130-140k equivalent. Plus generous benefits of all sorts. Pretty good for a union job with 100% job security and where you get to go home at 3pm!

Where is “around here”? How many years are “a few years in”?

This ranks right there with the “retire after 20 years, free healthcare, union negotiated” posts.

This fool knows that their post is inaccurate and they just come on here because they like attention. The reality is they likely lack intelligence and are probably pretty unattractive people, which is why they're on here looking for attention...

The trolling tool never did let us know where their teachers are making $90k a few years in.

Yes. I was waiting for the link to those salary scales. I have my resume ready and I am waiting! The idea of making 90K after a "few years" makes me giddy with excitement because just imagine what a 13+ year teacher would make!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A teacher around here can expect to make $90k a few years in for essentially 9 months of work (given the endless summers plus all the other holidays). That means average salaries are really more like $120k on an annualized basis. Plus the value of the pension that will easily bump it to a $130-140k equivalent. Plus generous benefits of all sorts. Pretty good for a union job with 100% job security and where you get to go home at 3pm!

Where is “around here”? How many years are “a few years in”?

This ranks right there with the “retire after 20 years, free healthcare, union negotiated” posts.

This fool knows that their post is inaccurate and they just come on here because they like attention. The reality is they likely lack intelligence and are probably pretty unattractive people, which is why they're on here looking for attention...

The trolling tool never did let us know where their teachers are making $90k a few years in.

Yes. I was waiting for the link to those salary scales. I have my resume ready and I am waiting! The idea of making 90K after a "few years" makes me giddy with excitement because just imagine what a 13+ year teacher would make!

I bet his mom is making him clean the basement up... bummer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s all supply vs demand.

Are teachers in Mississippi underpaid at like 30k a year? Absolutely.

Is an individual teacher making 30k in Mississippi underpaid? Maybe not. If we tripled the pay to 90k it’s more likely that the 30k teacher should be out of a job as the talent pool would increase and we would hire better teachers.

So even a teacher in Virginia making 100k who “thinks” they should make 200k May not be able to keep their job if we were fair about keeping it meritocratic. Even if they keep their jobs it would likely result in the majority of their coworkers losing their jobs if we are being fair.

True, but the unions would prevent the firing of bad teachers. Which is also why good teachers can't be paid more.

[Anonymous]

You don't need much education. Just a bachelor's degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You don't need much education. Just a bachelor's degree.

Some states require teachers to have Master's degrees.

[Anonymous]

Teachers actually have extremely high HHI.

Must are multimillionaires

[Anonymous]

Teachers definitely aren't paid enough. Nurses are a little more fair. I'm a nurse with 11 years experience and made about 55/hr last year and now make about 75/hr because I make a high differential due to where I work. I'm also in a lower COL area than DC.

That said, when you add in the trauma, abuse, and difficulty I've experienced in the past decade, it can be easier to argue nurses need to be paid more.

But if we are really talking about who is underpaid in the medical field, it's the LNAs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s all supply vs demand.

Are teachers in Mississippi underpaid at like 30k a year? Absolutely.

Is an individual teacher making 30k in Mississippi underpaid? Maybe not. If we tripled the pay to 90k it’s more likely that the 30k teacher should be out of a job as the talent pool would increase and we would hire better teachers.

So even a teacher in Virginia making 100k who “thinks” they should make 200k May not be able to keep their job if we were fair about keeping it meritocratic. Even if they keep their jobs it would likely result in the majority of their coworkers losing their jobs if we are being fair.

True, but the unions would prevent the firing of bad teachers. Which is also why good teachers can't be paid more.

+1

Considering how hard it is to fire teachers, the automatic raises, pension and benefits, many teachers are compensated quite well. In MCPS, 85% of teachers have been there for 5 or more years and half have been there for at least 15 years. If the pay was so bad they would not be able to retain teachers this well.