American Women Are Giving Up on Marriage (Wall Street Journal)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's unfortunate is most of the few good men ending up with selfish and demanding wives who want more rights and less responsibilities in the name of equality. You need two good eggs to make a good omelette.

The problem is modern wives and mothers bought the pan and paid the gas bill with the money they earned from their job, have to provide both eggs, cook them, and then wash the pan too.

This. Women are expected to earn the money now but men aren't expected to take on any additional tasks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Wall Street Journal profiled single women who are concerned about money and children.
https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/relationships/american-women-are-giving-up-on-marriage-54840971?st=i8f72H&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink/

Katie, who is 30 and runs Lume, a leadership coaching startup, out of New York City. Katie spent the first half of 2024 going on three or four dates a week with men she met on apps, such as Hinge and Bumble ... calling it “the only thing you can put 10,000 hours into and end up right where you started.”

Christina, a 31-year-old wildland firefighter in rural Republic, Wash., who didn’t go to college. ... paid $90,000 for a two-bedroom ... "so I don’t feel like I need to be tied financially,” ... doubted she would find someone else who aligned with her progressive views in her conservative town. So she stopped looking. “If I need companionship, I volunteer at the dog shelter.”

Alicia's last long-term relationship ... “wanted the white picket fence and me at home with the kids,” ... despite the fact that her salary was nearly 50% higher than his.

Rachael, a 33-year-old real-estate agent in Savannah, Ga., ... left her boyfriend because she was tired of being both the breadwinner and primary parent.

Tina, who is 34 and works for a health startup ... splits her time between New York City and San Diego, has lately spent hours researching the “Single Mothers by Choice” movement and started saving for a baby with a high-yield savings account.

Actually, men are giving up on marrying American Women. Sorry, but foreign women have them out classed.

LOL. 95+% of American men can’t even afford to travel to another country, let alone attract a wife in one.

Try again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Do you think young women are stupid? It’s not hard to see.

Dating isn’t like marriage. It’s hard to see down the line how someone will interact with you once kids come along. Especially if you have lust blinders on.

This was the first generation of young women who truly saw moms work in near equal measure to dads- and breadwin in record numbers. This is also the first generation of young women who were raised in the activity laden nightmare that is modern day parenting. They heard terms like “mental load” and heard about the invisible work of parenting. They saw their parents work their ass off just to pay for daycare, while their standard of living wasn’t guaranteed to rise. This generation of women is neither smarter nor dumber than past- but they sure are more educated on the realities of cost of living/kids/quality of life issues

Agree to disagree. A subset of women may be thinking along these lines and not wanting to marry sure, but is that the primary reason for the decline in marriage? I personally think the other factors I raised, specifically the availability of well paid and educated men, are more relevant to the choice not to marry, and the workload balance is a greater cause for divorce.

You think women are so dumb that they cannot think in advance about what it would be like to be married with kids?

You’ve suggested twice that my comment means I think women are dumb. Bizarre take. I think most women do like the idea of marriage if they could find someone of equal status (emotional intelligence, hardworking, educated) and unfortunately that’s the real issue.

That’s not what the story or data says, but go on.

The story is selected anecdotes of people willing to talk to the WSJ. The data only says the marriage rate is declining.

But the qualitative data matters.

Not really. This is a subset of fairly well off women and not reflective of women in America generally and their reasoning.

Look, it is well known that over and over, every time women in any culture or nation get access to a little economic freedom and birth control, they reduce the number of kids they have and marriage rates go down. Clearly women when they get a chance opt out of domesticity because it is a *bad deal* for them.

Polls show that women prefer to take more extended time off for pregnancy, childbirth and parental leave - and can’t. They would prefer a four day work week, but we don’t have that either. You are pretending that this economy and increased work hours are women’s choice. Women are making choices within a paradigm they don’t control. Don’t pretend this is all about options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Do you think young women are stupid? It’s not hard to see.

Dating isn’t like marriage. It’s hard to see down the line how someone will interact with you once kids come along. Especially if you have lust blinders on.

This was the first generation of young women who truly saw moms work in near equal measure to dads- and breadwin in record numbers. This is also the first generation of young women who were raised in the activity laden nightmare that is modern day parenting. They heard terms like “mental load” and heard about the invisible work of parenting. They saw their parents work their ass off just to pay for daycare, while their standard of living wasn’t guaranteed to rise. This generation of women is neither smarter nor dumber than past- but they sure are more educated on the realities of cost of living/kids/quality of life issues

Agree to disagree. A subset of women may be thinking along these lines and not wanting to marry sure, but is that the primary reason for the decline in marriage? I personally think the other factors I raised, specifically the availability of well paid and educated men, are more relevant to the choice not to marry, and the workload balance is a greater cause for divorce.

You think women are so dumb that they cannot think in advance about what it would be like to be married with kids?

You’ve suggested twice that my comment means I think women are dumb. Bizarre take. I think most women do like the idea of marriage if they could find someone of equal status (emotional intelligence, hardworking, educated) and unfortunately that’s the real issue.

That’s not what the story or data says, but go on.

The story is selected anecdotes of people willing to talk to the WSJ. The data only says the marriage rate is declining.

But the qualitative data matters.

Not really. This is a subset of fairly well off women and not reflective of women in America generally and their reasoning.

Look, it is well known that over and over, every time women in any culture or nation get access to a little economic freedom and birth control, they reduce the number of kids they have and marriage rates go down. Clearly women when they get a chance opt out of domesticity because it is a *bad deal* for them.

Polls show that women prefer to take more extended time off for pregnancy, childbirth and parental leave - and can’t. They would prefer a four day work week, but we don’t have that either. You are pretending that this economy and increased work hours are women’s choice. Women are making choices within a paradigm they don’t control. Don’t pretend this is all about options.

Women like all economic actors are making choices that reflect their interests which includes, everywhere across all time, reducing the number of children they have as soon as they are able to have a little ability to do so. There is no going back unless you are literally going to force women to get married and have babies (which is the subtext of anti-choice efforts).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Do you think young women are stupid? It’s not hard to see.

Dating isn’t like marriage. It’s hard to see down the line how someone will interact with you once kids come along. Especially if you have lust blinders on.

This was the first generation of young women who truly saw moms work in near equal measure to dads- and breadwin in record numbers. This is also the first generation of young women who were raised in the activity laden nightmare that is modern day parenting. They heard terms like “mental load” and heard about the invisible work of parenting. They saw their parents work their ass off just to pay for daycare, while their standard of living wasn’t guaranteed to rise. This generation of women is neither smarter nor dumber than past- but they sure are more educated on the realities of cost of living/kids/quality of life issues

Agree to disagree. A subset of women may be thinking along these lines and not wanting to marry sure, but is that the primary reason for the decline in marriage? I personally think the other factors I raised, specifically the availability of well paid and educated men, are more relevant to the choice not to marry, and the workload balance is a greater cause for divorce.

You think women are so dumb that they cannot think in advance about what it would be like to be married with kids?

You’ve suggested twice that my comment means I think women are dumb. Bizarre take. I think most women do like the idea of marriage if they could find someone of equal status (emotional intelligence, hardworking, educated) and unfortunately that’s the real issue.

That’s not what the story or data says, but go on.

The story is selected anecdotes of people willing to talk to the WSJ. The data only says the marriage rate is declining.

But the qualitative data matters.

Not really. This is a subset of fairly well off women and not reflective of women in America generally and their reasoning.

Look, it is well known that over and over, every time women in any culture or nation get access to a little economic freedom and birth control, they reduce the number of kids they have and marriage rates go down. Clearly women when they get a chance opt out of domesticity because it is a *bad deal* for them.

Polls show that women prefer to take more extended time off for pregnancy, childbirth and parental leave - and can’t. They would prefer a four day work week, but we don’t have that either. You are pretending that this economy and increased work hours are women’s choice. Women are making choices within a paradigm they don’t control. Don’t pretend this is all about options.

Women like all economic actors are making choices that reflect their interests which includes, everywhere across all time, reducing the number of children they have as soon as they are able to have a little ability to do so. There is no going back unless you are literally going to force women to get married and have babies (which is the subtext of anti-choice efforts).

I don’t buy the idea that increasing flexibility, leave and time off in the work force wouldn’t improve birth rates. This idea that women want increased hours at the expense of work life balance simply is not born out by poll data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Do you think young women are stupid? It’s not hard to see.

Dating isn’t like marriage. It’s hard to see down the line how someone will interact with you once kids come along. Especially if you have lust blinders on.

This was the first generation of young women who truly saw moms work in near equal measure to dads- and breadwin in record numbers. This is also the first generation of young women who were raised in the activity laden nightmare that is modern day parenting. They heard terms like “mental load” and heard about the invisible work of parenting. They saw their parents work their ass off just to pay for daycare, while their standard of living wasn’t guaranteed to rise. This generation of women is neither smarter nor dumber than past- but they sure are more educated on the realities of cost of living/kids/quality of life issues

Agree to disagree. A subset of women may be thinking along these lines and not wanting to marry sure, but is that the primary reason for the decline in marriage? I personally think the other factors I raised, specifically the availability of well paid and educated men, are more relevant to the choice not to marry, and the workload balance is a greater cause for divorce.

You think women are so dumb that they cannot think in advance about what it would be like to be married with kids?

You’ve suggested twice that my comment means I think women are dumb. Bizarre take. I think most women do like the idea of marriage if they could find someone of equal status (emotional intelligence, hardworking, educated) and unfortunately that’s the real issue.

That’s not what the story or data says, but go on.

The story is selected anecdotes of people willing to talk to the WSJ. The data only says the marriage rate is declining.

But the qualitative data matters.

Not really. This is a subset of fairly well off women and not reflective of women in America generally and their reasoning.

Look, it is well known that over and over, every time women in any culture or nation get access to a little economic freedom and birth control, they reduce the number of kids they have and marriage rates go down. Clearly women when they get a chance opt out of domesticity because it is a *bad deal* for them.

Yup, this is just the free market at work. Some women realize they don't want that lifestyle of married with kids and there's more options for that subset of women.

I find it interesting that Red States are trying to change how "the market" operates by restricting access to abortion services and birth control. They are actively trying to take away these options from women. They are attempting to stifle the free market.

That free market indicates a migration of Americans from blue to red states so obviously they aren’t persuaded that their free market is stifled by abortion restrictions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Do you think young women are stupid? It’s not hard to see.

Dating isn’t like marriage. It’s hard to see down the line how someone will interact with you once kids come along. Especially if you have lust blinders on.

This was the first generation of young women who truly saw moms work in near equal measure to dads- and breadwin in record numbers. This is also the first generation of young women who were raised in the activity laden nightmare that is modern day parenting. They heard terms like “mental load” and heard about the invisible work of parenting. They saw their parents work their ass off just to pay for daycare, while their standard of living wasn’t guaranteed to rise. This generation of women is neither smarter nor dumber than past- but they sure are more educated on the realities of cost of living/kids/quality of life issues

Agree to disagree. A subset of women may be thinking along these lines and not wanting to marry sure, but is that the primary reason for the decline in marriage? I personally think the other factors I raised, specifically the availability of well paid and educated men, are more relevant to the choice not to marry, and the workload balance is a greater cause for divorce.

You think women are so dumb that they cannot think in advance about what it would be like to be married with kids?

You’ve suggested twice that my comment means I think women are dumb. Bizarre take. I think most women do like the idea of marriage if they could find someone of equal status (emotional intelligence, hardworking, educated) and unfortunately that’s the real issue.

That’s not what the story or data says, but go on.

The story is selected anecdotes of people willing to talk to the WSJ. The data only says the marriage rate is declining.

But the qualitative data matters.

Not really. This is a subset of fairly well off women and not reflective of women in America generally and their reasoning.

Look, it is well known that over and over, every time women in any culture or nation get access to a little economic freedom and birth control, they reduce the number of kids they have and marriage rates go down. Clearly women when they get a chance opt out of domesticity because it is a *bad deal* for them.

Polls show that women prefer to take more extended time off for pregnancy, childbirth and parental leave - and can’t. They would prefer a four day work week, but we don’t have that either. You are pretending that this economy and increased work hours are women’s choice. Women are making choices within a paradigm they don’t control. Don’t pretend this is all about options.

Women like all economic actors are making choices that reflect their interests which includes, everywhere across all time, reducing the number of children they have as soon as they are able to have a little ability to do so. There is no going back unless you are literally going to force women to get married and have babies (which is the subtext of anti-choice efforts).

I don’t buy the idea that increasing flexibility, leave and time off in the work force wouldn’t improve birth rates. This idea that women want increased hours at the expense of work life balance simply is not born out by poll data.

We should do that for other reasons, but lots of efforts at this abroad show it does not move the needle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Do you think young women are stupid? It’s not hard to see.

Dating isn’t like marriage. It’s hard to see down the line how someone will interact with you once kids come along. Especially if you have lust blinders on.

This was the first generation of young women who truly saw moms work in near equal measure to dads- and breadwin in record numbers. This is also the first generation of young women who were raised in the activity laden nightmare that is modern day parenting. They heard terms like “mental load” and heard about the invisible work of parenting. They saw their parents work their ass off just to pay for daycare, while their standard of living wasn’t guaranteed to rise. This generation of women is neither smarter nor dumber than past- but they sure are more educated on the realities of cost of living/kids/quality of life issues

Agree to disagree. A subset of women may be thinking along these lines and not wanting to marry sure, but is that the primary reason for the decline in marriage? I personally think the other factors I raised, specifically the availability of well paid and educated men, are more relevant to the choice not to marry, and the workload balance is a greater cause for divorce.

You think women are so dumb that they cannot think in advance about what it would be like to be married with kids?

You’ve suggested twice that my comment means I think women are dumb. Bizarre take. I think most women do like the idea of marriage if they could find someone of equal status (emotional intelligence, hardworking, educated) and unfortunately that’s the real issue.

That’s not what the story or data says, but go on.

The story is selected anecdotes of people willing to talk to the WSJ. The data only says the marriage rate is declining.

But the qualitative data matters.

Not really. This is a subset of fairly well off women and not reflective of women in America generally and their reasoning.

Look, it is well known that over and over, every time women in any culture or nation get access to a little economic freedom and birth control, they reduce the number of kids they have and marriage rates go down. Clearly women when they get a chance opt out of domesticity because it is a *bad deal* for them.

Yup, this is just the free market at work. Some women realize they don't want that lifestyle of married with kids and there's more options for that subset of women.

I find it interesting that Red States are trying to change how "the market" operates by restricting access to abortion services and birth control. They are actively trying to take away these options from women. They are attempting to stifle the free market.

That free market indicates a migration of Americans from blue to red states so obviously they aren’t persuaded that their free market is stifled by abortion restrictions.

it’s the opposite of Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park - women find ways to control their fertility no matter what.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Do you think young women are stupid? It’s not hard to see.

Dating isn’t like marriage. It’s hard to see down the line how someone will interact with you once kids come along. Especially if you have lust blinders on.

This was the first generation of young women who truly saw moms work in near equal measure to dads- and breadwin in record numbers. This is also the first generation of young women who were raised in the activity laden nightmare that is modern day parenting. They heard terms like “mental load” and heard about the invisible work of parenting. They saw their parents work their ass off just to pay for daycare, while their standard of living wasn’t guaranteed to rise. This generation of women is neither smarter nor dumber than past- but they sure are more educated on the realities of cost of living/kids/quality of life issues

Agree to disagree. A subset of women may be thinking along these lines and not wanting to marry sure, but is that the primary reason for the decline in marriage? I personally think the other factors I raised, specifically the availability of well paid and educated men, are more relevant to the choice not to marry, and the workload balance is a greater cause for divorce.

You think women are so dumb that they cannot think in advance about what it would be like to be married with kids?

You’ve suggested twice that my comment means I think women are dumb. Bizarre take. I think most women do like the idea of marriage if they could find someone of equal status (emotional intelligence, hardworking, educated) and unfortunately that’s the real issue.

That’s not what the story or data says, but go on.

The story is selected anecdotes of people willing to talk to the WSJ. The data only says the marriage rate is declining.

But the qualitative data matters.

Not really. This is a subset of fairly well off women and not reflective of women in America generally and their reasoning.

Look, it is well known that over and over, every time women in any culture or nation get access to a little economic freedom and birth control, they reduce the number of kids they have and marriage rates go down. Clearly women when they get a chance opt out of domesticity because it is a *bad deal* for them.

Polls show that women prefer to take more extended time off for pregnancy, childbirth and parental leave - and can’t. They would prefer a four day work week, but we don’t have that either. You are pretending that this economy and increased work hours are women’s choice. Women are making choices within a paradigm they don’t control. Don’t pretend this is all about options.

Women like all economic actors are making choices that reflect their interests which includes, everywhere across all time, reducing the number of children they have as soon as they are able to have a little ability to do so. There is no going back unless you are literally going to force women to get married and have babies (which is the subtext of anti-choice efforts).

I don’t buy the idea that increasing flexibility, leave and time off in the work force wouldn’t improve birth rates. This idea that women want increased hours at the expense of work life balance simply is not born out by poll data.

It works in Scandinavia.

[Anonymous]

Here is an interesting study on how Sweden helps women with fertility issues and marriage.

https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol13/22/13-22.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Overall marriage and children are indeed a bad deal for majority of women.

How old are you? You sound like you are young enough to still believe that climbing the corporate ladder has some inherent value or is worth doing in and of itself.

Do men believe that? maybe men should be told to stop climbing the corporate ladder and stay home with their kids.

Men and women are different and the things typically valued in mate selection are different for each. Part of the reason for a lot of the current strife is this weird impulse to try and treat men and women as exactly the same. It never has been and never will be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Do you think young women are stupid? It’s not hard to see.

Dating isn’t like marriage. It’s hard to see down the line how someone will interact with you once kids come along. Especially if you have lust blinders on.

This was the first generation of young women who truly saw moms work in near equal measure to dads- and breadwin in record numbers. This is also the first generation of young women who were raised in the activity laden nightmare that is modern day parenting. They heard terms like “mental load” and heard about the invisible work of parenting. They saw their parents work their ass off just to pay for daycare, while their standard of living wasn’t guaranteed to rise. This generation of women is neither smarter nor dumber than past- but they sure are more educated on the realities of cost of living/kids/quality of life issues

Agree to disagree. A subset of women may be thinking along these lines and not wanting to marry sure, but is that the primary reason for the decline in marriage? I personally think the other factors I raised, specifically the availability of well paid and educated men, are more relevant to the choice not to marry, and the workload balance is a greater cause for divorce.

You think women are so dumb that they cannot think in advance about what it would be like to be married with kids?

You’ve suggested twice that my comment means I think women are dumb. Bizarre take. I think most women do like the idea of marriage if they could find someone of equal status (emotional intelligence, hardworking, educated) and unfortunately that’s the real issue.

That’s not what the story or data says, but go on.

The story is selected anecdotes of people willing to talk to the WSJ. The data only says the marriage rate is declining.

But the qualitative data matters.

Not really. This is a subset of fairly well off women and not reflective of women in America generally and their reasoning.

Look, it is well known that over and over, every time women in any culture or nation get access to a little economic freedom and birth control, they reduce the number of kids they have and marriage rates go down. Clearly women when they get a chance opt out of domesticity because it is a *bad deal* for them.

Polls show that women prefer to take more extended time off for pregnancy, childbirth and parental leave - and can’t. They would prefer a four day work week, but we don’t have that either. You are pretending that this economy and increased work hours are women’s choice. Women are making choices within a paradigm they don’t control. Don’t pretend this is all about options.

Women like all economic actors are making choices that reflect their interests which includes, everywhere across all time, reducing the number of children they have as soon as they are able to have a little ability to do so. There is no going back unless you are literally going to force women to get married and have babies (which is the subtext of anti-choice efforts).

I don’t buy the idea that increasing flexibility, leave and time off in the work force wouldn’t improve birth rates. This idea that women want increased hours at the expense of work life balance simply is not born out by poll data.

It works in Scandinavia.

Not really. Nordic fertility rates are at an all time low.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Overall marriage and children are indeed a bad deal for majority of women.

How old are you? You sound like you are young enough to still believe that climbing the corporate ladder has some inherent value or is worth doing in and of itself.

Do men believe that? maybe men should be told to stop climbing the corporate ladder and stay home with their kids.

Men and women are different and the things typically valued in mate selection are different for each. Part of the reason for a lot of the current strife is this weird impulse to try and treat men and women as exactly the same. It never has been and never will be.

lol keep thinking that - that’s the path to total demographic collapse. It never ceases to amaze that men will fret about the fertility rate but refuse to look in the mirror …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Do you think young women are stupid? It’s not hard to see.

Dating isn’t like marriage. It’s hard to see down the line how someone will interact with you once kids come along. Especially if you have lust blinders on.

This was the first generation of young women who truly saw moms work in near equal measure to dads- and breadwin in record numbers. This is also the first generation of young women who were raised in the activity laden nightmare that is modern day parenting. They heard terms like “mental load” and heard about the invisible work of parenting. They saw their parents work their ass off just to pay for daycare, while their standard of living wasn’t guaranteed to rise. This generation of women is neither smarter nor dumber than past- but they sure are more educated on the realities of cost of living/kids/quality of life issues

Agree to disagree. A subset of women may be thinking along these lines and not wanting to marry sure, but is that the primary reason for the decline in marriage? I personally think the other factors I raised, specifically the availability of well paid and educated men, are more relevant to the choice not to marry, and the workload balance is a greater cause for divorce.

You think women are so dumb that they cannot think in advance about what it would be like to be married with kids?

You’ve suggested twice that my comment means I think women are dumb. Bizarre take. I think most women do like the idea of marriage if they could find someone of equal status (emotional intelligence, hardworking, educated) and unfortunately that’s the real issue.

That’s not what the story or data says, but go on.

The story is selected anecdotes of people willing to talk to the WSJ. The data only says the marriage rate is declining.

But the qualitative data matters.

Not really. This is a subset of fairly well off women and not reflective of women in America generally and their reasoning.

Look, it is well known that over and over, every time women in any culture or nation get access to a little economic freedom and birth control, they reduce the number of kids they have and marriage rates go down. Clearly women when they get a chance opt out of domesticity because it is a *bad deal* for them.

Polls show that women prefer to take more extended time off for pregnancy, childbirth and parental leave - and can’t. They would prefer a four day work week, but we don’t have that either. You are pretending that this economy and increased work hours are women’s choice. Women are making choices within a paradigm they don’t control. Don’t pretend this is all about options.

Women like all economic actors are making choices that reflect their interests which includes, everywhere across all time, reducing the number of children they have as soon as they are able to have a little ability to do so. There is no going back unless you are literally going to force women to get married and have babies (which is the subtext of anti-choice efforts).

I don’t buy the idea that increasing flexibility, leave and time off in the work force wouldn’t improve birth rates. This idea that women want increased hours at the expense of work life balance simply is not born out by poll data.

This might reflect my own biases as a parent of 2 kids. I find being that being a parent has been incredibly rewarding. But, putting it in sort of economic terms, I think the marginal benefit of having kids drops precipitously after 1 or 2 kids. You get a lot of the benefits there are to parenting out of having one child. But, I will admit that the family dynamics of a second child rounded things out. Even though I was a third child myself, I don't know that the benefits increase noticeably between two and three -- particularly as compared to the costs.

My guess is that - in a population with good access to birth control, education, and equal rights for women - we'd find the birth rate sticks pretty stubbornly under two, regardless of the social safety net and how good the work-life balance ends up being.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Wall Street Journal profiled single women who are concerned about money and children.
https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/relationships/american-women-are-giving-up-on-marriage-54840971?st=i8f72H&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink/

Katie, who is 30 and runs Lume, a leadership coaching startup, out of New York City. Katie spent the first half of 2024 going on three or four dates a week with men she met on apps, such as Hinge and Bumble ... calling it “the only thing you can put 10,000 hours into and end up right where you started.”

Christina, a 31-year-old wildland firefighter in rural Republic, Wash., who didn’t go to college. ... paid $90,000 for a two-bedroom ... "so I don’t feel like I need to be tied financially,” ... doubted she would find someone else who aligned with her progressive views in her conservative town. So she stopped looking. “If I need companionship, I volunteer at the dog shelter.”

Alicia's last long-term relationship ... “wanted the white picket fence and me at home with the kids,” ... despite the fact that her salary was nearly 50% higher than his.

Rachael, a 33-year-old real-estate agent in Savannah, Ga., ... left her boyfriend because she was tired of being both the breadwinner and primary parent.

Tina, who is 34 and works for a health startup ... splits her time between New York City and San Diego, has lately spent hours researching the “Single Mothers by Choice” movement and started saving for a baby with a high-yield savings account.

Actually, men are giving up on marrying American Women. Sorry, but foreign women have them out classed.

And vice versa. I'm in an area with a high concentration of medical professionals, near a large research university, and it's incredible to see how many blue eyed blondes are married to specialist doctors, dentists, and surgeons who are first generation immigrants, most of them from India and Korea. And they are also taller than white Americans, in addition to making a GREAT income. I don't know the entire story, but they seem to be involved into their children's lives and very family oriented.