What happened to W&M, Brandeis, Tulane, Pepperdine and others..from historically T50 to outside looking in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that it's not wise to rely on rankings without context. As noted, the current rankings are made up of criteria weighed in ways which likely matter only to some people. If you care about academic excellence, you have to drill down to those specific criteria - admitted student GPA and test scores, class sizes, % of classes taught by actual faculty instead of by TAs, % of students graduating in 4 years, etc. If you care about, or more highly value, other criteria, look at those. In the end, the specific ranking given a school reflects the ranking formula, which may not reflect any particular applicant's or employer's values.

In other words, to evaluate a school you have to weigh for yourself the criteria which matter to you, not blindly accept the conclusory ranking derived from criteria which matter to the ranking organization.

Sure. Yadda yadda yadda. Only here on tiny DCUM do people bother to "drill down" to specific criteria. The rest of the country simply uses the rankings to gauge where schools fall in relation to one another. Or, IOW, they "blindly accept the conclusory ranking" and that's that. I'm sorry it rankles you.

They don't though, someone actually posted the numbers

What?

Percentage of students that use rankings. It's low.

It's actually 66%. Sorry.

The Art & Science Group surveyed more than 800 high school seniors, and about two thirds (66 percent) said they considered college rankings in their college application choice process. What’s more, the survey found that students with high SAT scores were even more likely (85 percent) to consider schools’ comparative rankings.

https://www.fierce-network.com/leadership/how-important-are-college-rankings-students-school-selection-process

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For example, US News no longer cares if colleges offer small classes. It does now care about number of Pell Grant recipients. Those are fine priorities. If they are yours, use current U News as your guide. If they are not, go back 3-4 years and follow those rankings.

This 1000%. While I am very happy if my kid's school supports the Pell Grant Recipients and other lower income students on campus (it's best for our society if we help ensure everyone gets a college degree that wants one), it doesn't affect my kid's education at all. However, taking majority of courses with only 25-40 students has a major impact on my kid's education. It means better access to professors as well (profs know you when you actually have discussions during classes and when the Prof actually has office hours as well rather than 10+ TAs holding various office hours.)

DP. Which school has "10+ TAs holding various office hours? My DC attends a large school and knows all of her professors, and they know her by name as well. I love the fiction that is being created on this thread.

I have a kid at college ranked #150++ a huge state school - all my kids classes have fewer than 30 students except one large seminar required for all honors college students. My kids middle school had bigger classes.

+1
I also have a kid a large state university and the majority of classes are between 20-40 students. Very, very few are the large auditorium-style classes. I think people who are SLAC boosters have no actual idea of what life is like at a large school.

It’s kind of absurd, really. But a good reminder that a lot of the info here is out of touch with reality.

Most people interested in a lac want 0 large auditorium classes to begin. There is a substantial difference in support for 10 students in a class than 100, a small-medium class at a university.

Thank you for proving the out of touch with reality point. The vast majority of classes at large universities are under 40-50 kids.

+1
Frankly, a class with only ten students sounds incredibly dull. The sweet spot is 30-50.

Dull? Maybe if your peers are dry as a brick. You all would have died if you had to do a tutorial at Oxford.

+1, anyone thinking 30-50 students is the adequate size is someone who wants to hide behind ignorance and not participate fully in course. They’ll say they like hearing “ideas bounce around” but it’s truly just passive learning. For centuries, small seminar and tutorial have been the leading ways to have rigorous, thoughtful education. If it didn’t matter, we’d just have massive courses for upper divs.

Oh, dear. The two of you need to go have your own private seminar where you can admire the sounds of your voices, and no one else's. Sounds absolutely stimulating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that it's not wise to rely on rankings without context. As noted, the current rankings are made up of criteria weighed in ways which likely matter only to some people. If you care about academic excellence, you have to drill down to those specific criteria - admitted student GPA and test scores, class sizes, % of classes taught by actual faculty instead of by TAs, % of students graduating in 4 years, etc. If you care about, or more highly value, other criteria, look at those. In the end, the specific ranking given a school reflects the ranking formula, which may not reflect any particular applicant's or employer's values.

In other words, to evaluate a school you have to weigh for yourself the criteria which matter to you, not blindly accept the conclusory ranking derived from criteria which matter to the ranking organization.

Sure. Yadda yadda yadda. Only here on tiny DCUM do people bother to "drill down" to specific criteria. The rest of the country simply uses the rankings to gauge where schools fall in relation to one another. Or, IOW, they "blindly accept the conclusory ranking" and that's that. I'm sorry it rankles you.

They don't though, someone actually posted the numbers

What?

Percentage of students that use rankings. It's low.

It's actually 66%. Sorry.

The Art & Science Group surveyed more than 800 high school seniors, and about two thirds (66 percent) said they considered college rankings in their college application choice process. What’s more, the survey found that students with high SAT scores were even more likely (85 percent) to consider schools’ comparative rankings.

https://www.fierce-network.com/leadership/how-important-are-college-rankings-students-school-selection-process

I think PP was referring to the sub 20% of students who use USNWR. Niche has overtaken US News to make no mention of all other rankings services. Maybe it was 16% or 18% now who used US News? Also, this is an old article. The newest research (if you care enough, and it seems like you do, go find it in this thread) was from winter of this year.

[Anonymous]

The newest research showed around 40% of students now do not use rankings at all. Your old research highlights the direction things are going in (less and less use of rankings every year).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The newest research showed around 40% of students now do not use rankings at all. Your old research highlights the direction things are going in (less and less use of rankings every year).

Again - post your citation. The citation I used was from earlier in the thread. Where's yours?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that it's not wise to rely on rankings without context. As noted, the current rankings are made up of criteria weighed in ways which likely matter only to some people. If you care about academic excellence, you have to drill down to those specific criteria - admitted student GPA and test scores, class sizes, % of classes taught by actual faculty instead of by TAs, % of students graduating in 4 years, etc. If you care about, or more highly value, other criteria, look at those. In the end, the specific ranking given a school reflects the ranking formula, which may not reflect any particular applicant's or employer's values.

In other words, to evaluate a school you have to weigh for yourself the criteria which matter to you, not blindly accept the conclusory ranking derived from criteria which matter to the ranking organization.

Sure. Yadda yadda yadda. Only here on tiny DCUM do people bother to "drill down" to specific criteria. The rest of the country simply uses the rankings to gauge where schools fall in relation to one another. Or, IOW, they "blindly accept the conclusory ranking" and that's that. I'm sorry it rankles you.

They don't though, someone actually posted the numbers

What?

Percentage of students that use rankings. It's low.

It's actually 66%. Sorry.

The Art & Science Group surveyed more than 800 high school seniors, and about two thirds (66 percent) said they considered college rankings in their college application choice process. What’s more, the survey found that students with high SAT scores were even more likely (85 percent) to consider schools’ comparative rankings.

https://www.fierce-network.com/leadership/how-important-are-college-rankings-students-school-selection-process

In short: you're wrong. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The newest research showed around 40% of students now do not use rankings at all. Your old research highlights the direction things are going in (less and less use of rankings every year).

Again - post your citation. The citation I used was from earlier in the thread. Where's yours?

I don't care to find it. Don't be so damn lazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UC Merced is equivalent to UMichigan.

The students admitted to UC Merced are of the same caliber as those admitted to UMichigan. I'm sure if you taught a class divided equally between UC Merced students and UMichigan students you would not see a difference.

Likewise the quality of undergraduate instruction is exactly the same.

Institutionally, the same resources available to UMichigan are available to UC Merced.

This isn't to pick on UMichigan (you can substitute any other large research university like UVA, UNC, Purdue, UMass, VA Tech, Texas, Iowa, etc).

No, these schools are not all interchangeable in terms of their student populations. I teach at a suburban high school. The students who are applying to UM, UVA and UT, are very different from the students applying to UIowa. And for the record, I love UIowa.

US News #s before social mobility:
UVA: 25
Michigan: 28
Austin: 56
Purdue: 56
VTech: 69
Merced: 165

The current US News is the reflection of the school TODAY! Who cares what the ranking was from 2 or 5 or 10 years ago. US News says UC Merced is roughly equivalent to those schools, by roughly equivalent, about in the same band. US News is used as a bible by a huge percentage of people. UC Merced is on par with those schools if you believe in US News.

US News overhauled its entire methodology. You are either a troll or unable to understand cause and effect.

DP. I think the point is that 99% of Americans simply don't care as obsessively as you clearly do about the "methodology." USNWR will continue to be the primary college ranking source in the U.S. for most people. Continue to seethe.

Because of US News's continuous decline in relevancy, Niche is now the #1 most used rankings system in the U.S.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5810fea5e58c62bd729121cc/t/66df2c8af65e4f679f507a20/1725901962868/studentPOLL+September+2024+Rankings.pdf

Here you go. Found it for you. You're welcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The newest research showed around 40% of students now do not use rankings at all. Your old research highlights the direction things are going in (less and less use of rankings every year).

60% do use rankings.

Probably 80% of parents reference college rankings as borne out by the DCUM posts. 🙂

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The newest research showed around 40% of students now do not use rankings at all. Your old research highlights the direction things are going in (less and less use of rankings every year).

60% do use rankings.

Probably 80% of parents reference college rankings as borne out by the DCUM posts. 🙂

And 10% use individual ranks. 16% use US News. So...

So what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that it's not wise to rely on rankings without context. As noted, the current rankings are made up of criteria weighed in ways which likely matter only to some people. If you care about academic excellence, you have to drill down to those specific criteria - admitted student GPA and test scores, class sizes, % of classes taught by actual faculty instead of by TAs, % of students graduating in 4 years, etc. If you care about, or more highly value, other criteria, look at those. In the end, the specific ranking given a school reflects the ranking formula, which may not reflect any particular applicant's or employer's values.

In other words, to evaluate a school you have to weigh for yourself the criteria which matter to you, not blindly accept the conclusory ranking derived from criteria which matter to the ranking organization.

Sure. Yadda yadda yadda. Only here on tiny DCUM do people bother to "drill down" to specific criteria. The rest of the country simply uses the rankings to gauge where schools fall in relation to one another. Or, IOW, they "blindly accept the conclusory ranking" and that's that. I'm sorry it rankles you.

They don't though, someone actually posted the numbers

What?

Percentage of students that use rankings. It's low.

It's actually 66%. Sorry.

The Art & Science Group surveyed more than 800 high school seniors, and about two thirds (66 percent) said they considered college rankings in their college application choice process. What’s more, the survey found that students with high SAT scores were even more likely (85 percent) to consider schools’ comparative rankings.

https://www.fierce-network.com/leadership/how-important-are-college-rankings-students-school-selection-process

In short: you're wrong. Sorry.

I post a citation to prove my point and you - with zero citations, just your "feels" - claim I'm wrong. This is so entertaining!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that it's not wise to rely on rankings without context. As noted, the current rankings are made up of criteria weighed in ways which likely matter only to some people. If you care about academic excellence, you have to drill down to those specific criteria - admitted student GPA and test scores, class sizes, % of classes taught by actual faculty instead of by TAs, % of students graduating in 4 years, etc. If you care about, or more highly value, other criteria, look at those. In the end, the specific ranking given a school reflects the ranking formula, which may not reflect any particular applicant's or employer's values.

In other words, to evaluate a school you have to weigh for yourself the criteria which matter to you, not blindly accept the conclusory ranking derived from criteria which matter to the ranking organization.

Sure. Yadda yadda yadda. Only here on tiny DCUM do people bother to "drill down" to specific criteria. The rest of the country simply uses the rankings to gauge where schools fall in relation to one another. Or, IOW, they "blindly accept the conclusory ranking" and that's that. I'm sorry it rankles you.

They don't though, someone actually posted the numbers

What?

Percentage of students that use rankings. It's low.

It's actually 66%. Sorry.

The Art & Science Group surveyed more than 800 high school seniors, and about two thirds (66 percent) said they considered college rankings in their college application choice process. What’s more, the survey found that students with high SAT scores were even more likely (85 percent) to consider schools’ comparative rankings.

https://www.fierce-network.com/leadership/how-important-are-college-rankings-students-school-selection-process

In short: you're wrong. Sorry.

I post a citation to prove my point and you - with zero citations, just your "feels" - claim I'm wrong. This is so entertaining!

See the citations posted five minutes ago above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The newest research showed around 40% of students now do not use rankings at all. Your old research highlights the direction things are going in (less and less use of rankings every year).

Again - post your citation. The citation I used was from earlier in the thread. Where's yours?

I don't care to find it. Don't be so damn lazy.

Ok, now it's obvious you're just a troll. A lazy, lazy troll projecting your laziness onto others who actually do their research. Buh-bye.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The newest research showed around 40% of students now do not use rankings at all. Your old research highlights the direction things are going in (less and less use of rankings every year).

Again - post your citation. The citation I used was from earlier in the thread. Where's yours?

I don't care to find it. Don't be so damn lazy.

Ok, now it's obvious you're just a troll. A lazy, lazy troll projecting your laziness onto others who actually do their research. Buh-bye.

Let me know when you've caught up on all recent posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UC Merced is equivalent to UMichigan.

The students admitted to UC Merced are of the same caliber as those admitted to UMichigan. I'm sure if you taught a class divided equally between UC Merced students and UMichigan students you would not see a difference.

Likewise the quality of undergraduate instruction is exactly the same.

Institutionally, the same resources available to UMichigan are available to UC Merced.

This isn't to pick on UMichigan (you can substitute any other large research university like UVA, UNC, Purdue, UMass, VA Tech, Texas, Iowa, etc).

No, these schools are not all interchangeable in terms of their student populations. I teach at a suburban high school. The students who are applying to UM, UVA and UT, are very different from the students applying to UIowa. And for the record, I love UIowa.

US News #s before social mobility:
UVA: 25
Michigan: 28
Austin: 56
Purdue: 56
VTech: 69
Merced: 165

The current US News is the reflection of the school TODAY! Who cares what the ranking was from 2 or 5 or 10 years ago. US News says UC Merced is roughly equivalent to those schools, by roughly equivalent, about in the same band. US News is used as a bible by a huge percentage of people. UC Merced is on par with those schools if you believe in US News.

US News overhauled its entire methodology. You are either a troll or unable to understand cause and effect.

DP. I think the point is that 99% of Americans simply don't care as obsessively as you clearly do about the "methodology." USNWR will continue to be the primary college ranking source in the U.S. for most people. Continue to seethe.

Because of US News's continuous decline in relevancy, Niche is now the #1 most used rankings system in the U.S.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5810fea5e58c62bd729121cc/t/66df2c8af65e4f679f507a20/1725901962868/studentPOLL+September+2024+Rankings.pdf

Here you go. Found it for you. You're welcome.

From your own link: 64% of students use rankings in their college search. Which is exactly what I said in an earlier post. That is not a small number of people.