Do fat women who are Body-Positive really love being fat?

[Anonymous]

The HAES movement has turned everything in regard to mentioning someone’s weight into fat shaming.

Physicians all over are getting written up by patients if they are told by the physician (the honest ones) that they cannot offer an effective treatment, or it will be only very short term relief, for their disease or symptom until they lose weight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:The level of denial in this thread is astounding. People are really arguing that obesity is not linked to health problems?

People are not arguing that here.

They are arguing that most efforts to lose weight, especially when accompanied by shaming, tend to backfire. Therefore -- and this is the point you are missing -- you should stop doing counterproductive things and try to find methods that are actually productive.

I’m not advocating for shaming at all. Stop projecting

Not that pp, but I am curious to know exactly what you’re advocating because it isn’t clear to me. You think that fat people don’t realize they are fat and need that to be pointed out to them?

No I’m saying that there are people who take the HAES movement/body positivity movement and convince themselves that being obese is healthy. It’s not. It’s one thing to promote self-esteem/loving yourself /treating others with respect. It’s another to say being fat is not detrimental to your health.

Eh, fat people aren’t stupid. They know they’re fat. Some have chosen not to put their energy into losing weight. They have accepted that they are fat and that isn’t going to change for them. It takes willpower, determination and work to get the weight off. That isn’t something that you can do for another person. They need to want it and they need to make it a top priority for themselves - day in, day out for months or years at a time. If they prefer to put their energy elsewhere it’s understandable and I don’t judge them for it. Let them enjoy their lives, let them feel good about all of their many other accomplishments. hyper focusing on their weight is not inspiring nor is it helpful.

A quibble: they’ve perhaps lost weight a dozen times on some truly draconian diets. Metabolism being what it is, a body wanting to be at what it regards as homeostasis, to protect itself from starvation, and any slippage from said draconian diet means you’re right back to where you were, with a few more pounds. 90% of people who have lost weight gain it back. So better just to learn to love where you are and make the healthiest choices possible. (Perhaps we’re saying the same thing but it kind of sounds like you think many choose not to lose weight because it’s too hard; they can, but their diet to maintain the weight loss isn’t like a regular thin person’s diet.

Also there’s some evidence that part of what causes obesity is that the body begins to regard itself as being in a state of starvation and thus considers itself as needing to store energy).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The HAES movement has turned everything in regard to mentioning someone’s weight into fat shaming.

Physicians all over are getting written up by patients if they are told by the physician (the honest ones) that they cannot offer an effective treatment, or it will be only very short term relief, for their disease or symptom until they lose weight.

What if a physician wouldn’t treat your UTI until you developed compassion, even though your bladder infection has nothing to do with your lack of compassion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The HAES movement has turned everything in regard to mentioning someone’s weight into fat shaming.

Physicians all over are getting written up by patients if they are told by the physician (the honest ones) that they cannot offer an effective treatment, or it will be only very short term relief, for their disease or symptom until they lose weight.

Written up? In what way? Good God. Are people not capable of making a point without resorting to lies, distortions, or straw men? So disheartening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The HAES movement has turned everything in regard to mentioning someone’s weight into fat shaming.

Physicians all over are getting written up by patients if they are told by the physician (the honest ones) that they cannot offer an effective treatment, or it will be only very short term relief, for their disease or symptom until they lose weight.

On the flip side of the coin, I've had a couple overweight friends experience having a physician tell them their symptoms were all because of being overweight; one pretty much walked into the room and said, "it's because your're fat" and then turn around and left. When in fact there was a real underlying issue, unrelated to weight, that was causing symptoms. One almost died because of such "advice" but luckily persisted until she found a doctor who took her complaints seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The level of denial in this thread is astounding. People are really arguing that obesity is not linked to health problems?

People are not arguing that here.

They are arguing that most efforts to lose weight, especially when accompanied by shaming, tend to backfire. Therefore -- and this is the point you are missing -- you should stop doing counterproductive things and try to find methods that are actually productive.

I’m not advocating for shaming at all. Stop projecting

Not that pp, but I am curious to know exactly what you’re advocating because it isn’t clear to me. You think that fat people don’t realize they are fat and need that to be pointed out to them?

No I’m saying that there are people who take the HAES movement/body positivity movement and convince themselves that being obese is healthy. It’s not. It’s one thing to promote self-esteem/loving yourself /treating others with respect. It’s another to say being fat is not detrimental to your health.[/quote

Eh, fat people aren’t stupid. They know they’re fat. Some have chosen not to put their energy into losing weight. They have accepted that they are fat and that isn’t going to change for them. It takes willpower, determination and work to get the weight off. That isn’t something that you can do for another person. They need to want it and they need to make it a top priority for themselves - day in, day out for months or years at a time. If they prefer to put their energy elsewhere it’s understandable and I don’t judge them for it. Let them enjoy their lives, let them feel good about all of their many other accomplishments. hyper focusing on their weight is not inspiring nor is it helpful.

A quibble: they’ve perhaps lost weight a dozen times on some truly draconian diets. Metabolism being what it is, a body wanting to be at what it regards as homeostasis, to protect itself from starvation, and any slippage from said draconian diet means you’re right back to where you were, with a few more pounds. 90% of people who have lost weight gain it back. So better just to learn to love where you are and make the healthiest choices possible. (Perhaps we’re saying the same thing but it kind of sounds like you think many choose not to lose weight because it’s too hard; they can, but their diet to maintain the weight loss isn’t like a regular thin person’s diet.

Also there’s some evidence that part of what causes obesity is that the body begins to regard itself as being in a state of starvation and thus considers itself as needing to store energy).

Yep. I know. My body wants to weigh more than is healthy for me. I either accept that and deal with type 2 diabetes , chronic knee pain etc or I do whatever it takes to get down to a healthier weight. I’ve lost and regained before and it sucks. I have also learned that zig zagging my calories and eating low sugar is the ticket for me. I do a combo if keto and intermittent fasting. I tend to eat more calories on the weekends. Maintaining is way easier than calorie deficit so I am dead serious about maintaining now.

It’s a lifestyle and a mindset. Until you accept your body and what it takes to lose/maintain weight, you will be in that cycle of losing, eating like “normal “ people and then regaining. You have to accept that the rules may very well be different for you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s a difference between body positivity and HAES (/fatlogic). The former makes sense.

From the HAES website: “We’ve lost the war on obesity. Fighting fat hasn’t made the fat go away. And being thinner, even if we knew how to successfully accomplish it, will not necessarily make us healthier or happier. The war on obesity has taken its toll.
Extensive “collateral damage” has resulted: Food and body preoccupation, self-hatred, eating disorders, discrimination,
poor health, etc. Few of us are at peace with our bodies, whether because we’re fat or because we fear becoming fat.

Health at Every Size is the new peace movement.

It supports people of all sizes in addressing health directly by adopting healthy behaviors. It is an inclusive movement, recognizing that our social characteristics, such as our size, race, national origin, sexuality, gender, disability status, and other attributes, are assets, and acknowledges and challenges the structural and systemic forces that impinge on living well.”

The latter sounds like it makes sense, too.

Just because you want to believe that becoming thinner when are obese won’t make you healthier doesn’t mean it’s true. But keep on repeating it to yourself until you die of diabetes or heart disease.

Why do you assume I’m fat, and gosh you jump quick-quick to the part where you kinda sound like you hope I die.

The entire point of these movements, start to finish, is that no person should have to hate themselves because of the body they’re in. It’s counterproductive to public health goals. Because you read that statistic above where fully 90% of people who lose weight regain it all. It’s reality that without surgery, or maybe fecal transplants in the not too distant future, people cannot lose weight. CICO is a myth, one that some believe in as hard as some believe in Young Earth creationism. For every one person who can make it happen (go, Jeff! That’s a lot of hard work and you look great!), there are nine who have worked equally as hard, but it’s the corporeal equivalent of trying to keep a dozen balls underwater and sooner or later they pop up. No one should have to hate themselves; everyone should love their body enough to practice good self care whether or not it results in weight loss, but because it makes them as healthy as their size allows. For someone who professes to be concerned about health (as evidenced by your all but wishing early death on an anonymous person), you should be banging the healthy at every size drum.

But what means has been covered on this thread, a lot. Sometimes some people just like to beat up on someone with less power in order to feel virtuous. That doesn’t make them virtuous or their position correct, it makes them a bully.

I like you.

Too bad science doesn’t care if you like it or not. Obese people are not healthy and are at higher risk of diabetes, heart disease, stroke, and apparently, ignoring the truth in favor of convenience and accusing people of bullying for stating facts. The only thing HAES does well is convincing people they should die happily vs. working hard to improve their health. And that’s a reasonable choice to make. But it doesn’t mean people are healthy at every size.

I'm pretty sure all that anger and hate you harbor will kill you long before the people plumped up from Twinkies.

Ah yes, now stating facts is “anger and hate” - and you still wonder why people think HAES is full of lunatics.

The only one who sounds like a lunatic here is you though. Take that in and wipe the spittle from your mouth and keyboard. Then, have some carbs. I never even heard of HAES before this thread it just makes sense to me that hating your body isn't going to lead to treating it well, that seems like commonsense to me. But, then, it ain't that common as evidenced by your screeds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, you can cite studies of correlation.

Do you understand why that does not translate well into differences in outcomes for treatment?DO you have studies that show longterm outcomes (of the kind you are pushing for) in management of obesity?

Show me outcomes data. That's what we're talking about, right? Not whether obesity is associated with certain outcomes, but what sort of intervention can effect positive change in those outcomes in people overall? Otherwise, you're just wanking off and getting high on judging people.

(Hint: fat-shaming is not effective. It's counterproductive, but at least you get to feel superior as you lead people to greater fatness, amirite?)

I do hope you are not a PA or NP. If so, you should be better trained.

I think you're talking to me, and I have not once, ever, shamed a patient about their weight. For starters, they're all sedated and intubated by the point I meet them, so they'd hear neither shame nor encouragement.

I didn't cite research in support of effective interventions or treatment, if you stop pontificating for a second and go back and reread what wrote. I offered compelling evidence that obesity is correlated, yes, to all-cause morbidity. There are several posters on this thread who have stated otherwise, page after page, and I am responding to them. They are wrong.

I agree with you there; you did not.

Expert advice for reducing obesity: Take the blame out of it
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/03/harvard-obesity-expert-says-blame-shame-make-problem-worse/

How and why weight stigma drives the obesity ‘epidemic’ and harms health
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-018-1116-5

So what does work?

Fat-shaming is a "cartoonishly out of step" approach, research suggests

So why do so many doctors "fat-shame" their patients? Some believe that it truly works, Hobbes writes....
But the notion that fat-shaming can help obese patients is "cartoonishly out of step with a generation of research into obesity and human behavior," Hobbes writes.

Jody Dushay, an endocrinologist and obesity specialist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, said the majority of her patients have lost and gained weight repeatedly before coming to her. "Telling them to try again, but in harsher terms, only sets them up to fail and then blame themselves," Hobbes writes.

And fat-shaming can drive obese patients away from the health care system, with dangerous consequences. Three different studies found that overweight women were more likely to die from breast and cervical cancer than non-overweight women, partly because they were reluctant to see a doctor and get screened.

Overweight people who are discriminated against also end up with shorter life expectancies than similarly overweight people who don't face discrimination, according to a 2015 study. "The stigma associated with [being overweight] is more harmful than actually being overweight," the study found.[/u

If fat-shaming doesn't work, what does?

To know what treatments can help overweight patients, it's important to know what doesn't work. For example, diets typically don't work—at least not in the long run. Research dating back to 1959 has found that 95 to 98% of attempts at losing weight ultimately fail, and [u]about 66% of dieters wind up gaining back more weight than they lost.

That's not because of personal failings on the part of dieters, Hobbes writes. Rather, research going back to 1969 has shown that losing just 3% of one's body weight can cause a 17% slowdown in metabolism, which can set off hunger hormones and ultimately lead to weight gain. "Keeping weight off means fighting your body's energy-regulation system and battling hunger all day, every day, for the rest of your life," Hobbes writes.
...
This personalized approach has been proven to work. In 2017, the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) found that diet was not the most important factor in obesity care; what mattered more was the amount of attention and support patients received. As a result, USPSTF recommended "intensive, multicomponent behavioral counseling" for overweight patients.
https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2018/09/26/obesity

What works isn't telling people they are bad, or lazy, or gross. It's not posting videos about how disgusting autopsies of fat people. And it is not talking about how awful and horrible the lives and dying of fat people are.

Guess what? That doesn't work for diabetes, either, and there is research about this. (You should look into it.) Emphasizing all the negative things that can happen -- blindness, limb amputations, kidney failure -- does not motivate teenagers and young adults to keep tighter control. What works better is encouraging themselves to accept themselves how they are, with the challenges they face, but helping them figure out what they love and enjoy about life, and supporting them in going for it.

But if you focus on the amputations, you lose them.

Unfortunately, some people have more emotionally invested in pride at being not-fat and enforcing the stigma of being fat, then we are able to avoid mustering for diabetes.

I'm not fat. I've never been fat. I've never had diabetes, either. I also know a lot of people in both categories, and it's my job to help them figure out how to be as healthy as they can, given where they are starting. That includes actually caring about whether whet I plan on saying to them and about them will help, or hurt.

You should care, too.

[Anonymous]

Every individual should be treated with respect and dignity regardless of their size. No one should be making derogatory or cruel about another human being's physical appearance. That's just being a decent person. But that's completely different than stating that people are "healthy at every size." Being obese absolutely carries health risks and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Are there people who have a biological propensity towards unhealthy weight gain? Of course. In that case, it's basically a chronic medical condition that's no different than diabetes or epilepsy. Would you tell a diabetic that there's no point in taking insulin since diabetes is something that their body naturally experiences? Like any other chronic medical condition, the people who are affected have to be willing to do what they need to do in order to manage it.

This is sort of a tangent. I don't think it's helpful that body image is so skewed in the US. People either look like they live at the gym or they are severely overweight. Being at a healthy weight does not mean being an athlete, fitness model, having a six-pack, etc. It's simply means being height-frame-weight proportional. In most cases, that doesn't require an insane fitness regimen and/or a draconian diet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, you can cite studies of correlation.

Do you understand why that does not translate well into differences in outcomes for treatment?DO you have studies that show longterm outcomes (of the kind you are pushing for) in management of obesity?

Show me outcomes data. That's what we're talking about, right? Not whether obesity is associated with certain outcomes, but what sort of intervention can effect positive change in those outcomes in people overall? Otherwise, you're just wanking off and getting high on judging people.

(Hint: fat-shaming is not effective. It's counterproductive, but at least you get to feel superior as you lead people to greater fatness, amirite?)

I do hope you are not a PA or NP. If so, you should be better trained.

I think you're talking to me, and I have not once, ever, shamed a patient about their weight. For starters, they're all sedated and intubated by the point I meet them, so they'd hear neither shame nor encouragement.

I didn't cite research in support of effective interventions or treatment, if you stop pontificating for a second and go back and reread what wrote. I offered compelling evidence that obesity is correlated, yes, to all-cause morbidity. There are several posters on this thread who have stated otherwise, page after page, and I am responding to them. They are wrong.

I agree with you there; you did not.

Expert advice for reducing obesity: Take the blame out of it
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/03/harvard-obesity-expert-says-blame-shame-make-problem-worse/

How and why weight stigma drives the obesity ‘epidemic’ and harms health
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-018-1116-5

So what does work?

Fat-shaming is a "cartoonishly out of step" approach, research suggests

So why do so many doctors "fat-shame" their patients? Some believe that it truly works, Hobbes writes....
But the notion that fat-shaming can help obese patients is "cartoonishly out of step with a generation of research into obesity and human behavior," Hobbes writes.

Jody Dushay, an endocrinologist and obesity specialist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, said the majority of her patients have lost and gained weight repeatedly before coming to her. "Telling them to try again, but in harsher terms, only sets them up to fail and then blame themselves," Hobbes writes.

And fat-shaming can drive obese patients away from the health care system, with dangerous consequences. Three different studies found that overweight women were more likely to die from breast and cervical cancer than non-overweight women, partly because they were reluctant to see a doctor and get screened.

Overweight people who are discriminated against also end up with shorter life expectancies than similarly overweight people who don't face discrimination, according to a 2015 study. "The stigma associated with [being overweight] is more harmful than actually being overweight," the study found.[/u

If fat-shaming doesn't work, what does?

To know what treatments can help overweight patients, it's important to know what doesn't work. For example, diets typically don't work—at least not in the long run. Research dating back to 1959 has found that 95 to 98% of attempts at losing weight ultimately fail, and [u]about 66% of dieters wind up gaining back more weight than they lost.

That's not because of personal failings on the part of dieters, Hobbes writes. Rather, research going back to 1969 has shown that losing just 3% of one's body weight can cause a 17% slowdown in metabolism, which can set off hunger hormones and ultimately lead to weight gain. "Keeping weight off means fighting your body's energy-regulation system and battling hunger all day, every day, for the rest of your life," Hobbes writes.
...
This personalized approach has been proven to work. In 2017, the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) found that diet was not the most important factor in obesity care; what mattered more was the amount of attention and support patients received. As a result, USPSTF recommended "intensive, multicomponent behavioral counseling" for overweight patients.
https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2018/09/26/obesity

What works isn't telling people they are bad, or lazy, or gross. It's not posting videos about how disgusting autopsies of fat people. And it is not talking about how awful and horrible the lives and dying of fat people are.

Guess what? That doesn't work for diabetes, either, and there is research about this. (You should look into it.) Emphasizing all the negative things that can happen -- blindness, limb amputations, kidney failure -- does not motivate teenagers and young adults to keep tighter control. What works better is encouraging themselves to accept themselves how they are, with the challenges they face, but helping them figure out what they love and enjoy about life, and supporting them in going for it.

But if you focus on the amputations, you lose them.

Unfortunately, some people have more emotionally invested in pride at being not-fat and enforcing the stigma of being fat, then we are able to avoid mustering for diabetes.

I'm not fat. I've never been fat. I've never had diabetes, either. I also know a lot of people in both categories, and it's my job to help them figure out how to be as healthy as they can, given where they are starting. That includes actually caring about whether whet I plan on saying to them and about them will help, or hurt.

You should care, too.

+1000
Outstandingly written.

[Anonymous]

Will admit, when my skinny friends are diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes and arthritis, this fat woman only partly feels bad for them, having those "fat" diseases.

It took me years to be finally diagnosed with Hashimotos, because my problem is just being "fat."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Will admit, when my skinny friends are diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes and arthritis, this fat woman only partly feels bad for them, having those "fat" diseases.

It took me years to be finally diagnosed with Hashimotos, because my problem is just being "fat."

How many underweight friends do you have who have developed Type 2 diabetes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will admit, when my skinny friends are diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes and arthritis, this fat woman only partly feels bad for them, having those "fat" diseases.

It took me years to be finally diagnosed with Hashimotos, because my problem is just being "fat."

How many underweight friends do you have who have developed Type 2 diabetes?

What do you do with the research that shows being slightly overweight is better for your long term health than being underweight or normal weight? (It's good research, and it has been replicated in a second very large sample.)

Do you think we should encourage people to be slightly overweight, "for their health?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will admit, when my skinny friends are diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes and arthritis, this fat woman only partly feels bad for them, having those "fat" diseases.

It took me years to be finally diagnosed with Hashimotos, because my problem is just being "fat."

How many underweight friends do you have who have developed Type 2 diabetes?

What do you do with the research that shows being slightly overweight is better for your long term health than being underweight or normal weight? (It's good research, and it has been replicated in a second very large sample.)

Do you think we should encourage people to be slightly overweight, "for their health?"

NP. But now that I'm in my 50's I do think that I feel and look better when I'm 20 or so pounds overweight. I have seen the research that indicates that people are more resilient when they are a little overweight and I believe it.

[Anonymous]

Thank you to all the kind and thoughtful posters who show the best of DCUM brains and compassion. It does make a difference.