Would you take Tufts, Emory, Wash U over UVA?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:William and Mary is probably more similar in size and feel to Washington University, Tufts, and Emory if that is what he wants. UVA is great if he wants a larger school, different experience. Perhaps schools like Duke, Columbia, Princeton, etc. would provide more opportunities, but I'm not convinced your private alternatives will. Perhaps focus on that level as reach.

This kind of vague advice is why students fall for the “prestige” factor that may or may not matter for them personally.

It made sense to me. They were just saying any difference in prestige wouldn't make much difference between the schools mentioned. It might for schools like Duke and Columbia.

I agree giving up in-state tuition at UVA means DC got into a top 10 school. UNless DC qualifies for significant financial aid. Also, Tufts isn't as good as UVA or the others, they just happen to be just as selective but academics wise the others are better.

What about 11? Seriously though, where does the arbitrary line exist?

Good question. All anyone can really tell you is their opinion. If I had to pay close to full vs. in-state for UVA or W&M and objective was perhaps law school, I'd say I'd find it hard not to send them to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, then probably Columbia, Duke, Brown, Dartmouth, Penn, perhaps Williams, Amherst, and maybe Rice. If you are talking science, it would clearly open up MIT and Caltech. Most of these are extremely tough admits. So that is about 14 or so tops. Many would add Chicago. I'd draw the line before Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Tufts, Emory, Wash U, etc. This is all based on my situation and if I was fortunate enough to have a kid with those options.

It is clear that HYPS etc. do have significantly higher representation at elite law schools than UVA or W&M. I recall seeing that about 25% of Yale law students are from Harvard and Yale, and remaining Ivy League plus Stanford take it to 50% plus. But you have to consider that they probably had stellar SATs and would also get stellar LSATs.

Your numbers are wrong, especially at Harvard which is a very large law school. Ivy League representation is way less than 50 percent.

This was the article I remember seeing on Yale. I don't know about Harvard, but I would still think Ivy representation is very high compared to undergraduate population.

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2011/04/18/up-close-tracing-the-elite-law-cycle/

I have never seen Harvard put numbers on it. Just a list of institutions represented: https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/undergraduate-colleges/

Yale is in a league of its own. Also, your article is a little dated.

At least I'm offering real data points. Here is a more recent view of Yale Law enrollment by undergraduate institutions from 2015. Of the schools mentioned, Tufts had 1, Washington University had 7, Emory had 4, UVA had 6, and W&M had 3.

In comparison, Yale had 69, Harvard had 65, Princeton had 37, Columbia had 30, Brown had 22, Dartmouth 19, Amherst 18, Penn 17, Stanford 16, Berkeley 16, and Williams and Duke 13.

Forgot to add the link: http://bulletin.printer.yale.edu/pdffiles/law.pdf

So Yale Law is just one data point, but it is a benchmark for prestige in law and here is how this breaks down. Ivy League graduates comprise 41% of Yale Law enrollment. 4.5 Ivy graduates per 1,000 in undergraduate enrollment end up at Yale Law. If you compare this to UVA graduates, an Ivy graduate (adjusting for undergraduate enrollment) is over 12X as likely to end up at Yale Law. An Ivy graduate is 7.4X more likely than a WashU/Tufts/Emory graduate to end up at Yale Law. There is a lot of variation. A Yale grad is 34X more likely to end up at Yale Law than a UVA grad. A Cornell grad is only 1.6X as likely to end up at Yale Law. But the next lowest Ivy, Penn, is 5X as likely as a UVA grad. Of the three private schools mentioned by the OP, WashU is the clear leader. Its graduates are 2.5X as likely to end up at Yale Law as a UVA graduate. Emory does a bit better and Tufts is worse.

As someone mentioned, Yale Law is a special case, so take this with a grain of salt, but it is actual data and it probably does say something about elite law admissions.

Your calculation is wrong. You need the # of applicants to YLS per school to make that determination. You appeared to be using a wrong assumption based on the total undergraduate population.

No. A graduate of WashU is 2.5X as likely to end up at WashU as a UVA graduate based on the data available in the Yale Law bulletin. 7 Yale Law students from an undergraduate population of 7,540 for Wash U vs 6 Yale Law students from an undergraduate population of 16,331 for UVA.

You are getting at percentage of applicants admitted by school, which is a valid, but different point. There is no public data on the number of applicants by school, so that is unknowable.

I actually don't see the difference between Wash U and UVA as that significant. When you get Princeton, for instance, a Princeton graduate is 19X as likely to end up at Yale Law, and I definitely think that is significant given the desirability of Yale Law.

As I said earlier, the average WashU graduate taking the LSAT scored several points higher than the average UVA graduate. That likely has nothing to do with the quality of education and everything to do with the standardized test taking ability of the average LSAT taker from those schools. So a kid choosing between UVA an WashU would probably score the same on the LSAT regardless of where they decided to go. My opinion is that their choice between WashU and UVA would not make a significant difference in their admission odds at Yale Law. Going to Princeton (if they could get admitted) would make a difference.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Emory President said there were 52 states at commencement today. Just saying

33 percent of whom are from the Deep South and another 20 percent from NY/NJ. No thanks.

The vast majority of you guys' children aren't getting into Emory, and she made a mistake which is fine considering she isn't American.

No it’s not fine

Well I say it is. America isn't the center of the world.

Actually it is, whether you like it or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look UVA bashers, say what you want about the school but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than comparable privates and you know it. You’re just jealous as hell because you can’t get your kids in.

Keep it classy, ‘HooGirl.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Look UVA bashers, say what you want about the school but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than comparable privates and you know it. You’re just jealous as hell because you can’t get your kids in.

Keep it classy, ‘HooGirl.

There are certainly people on here just out to bash UVA, but the legitimate open question is what are the "comparable privates". The OP was struggling with whether a premium for Emory/Wash U/Tufts is worth it. (Premium is a factor of net price.) I'd say probably not. On the other hand, I'd say Duke is probably worth it.

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Anonymous wrote:William and Mary is probably more similar in size and feel to Washington University, Tufts, and Emory if that is what he wants. UVA is great if he wants a larger school, different experience. Perhaps schools like Duke, Columbia, Princeton, etc. would provide more opportunities, but I'm not convinced your private alternatives will. Perhaps focus on that level as reach.

This kind of vague advice is why students fall for the “prestige” factor that may or may not matter for them personally.

It made sense to me. They were just saying any difference in prestige wouldn't make much difference between the schools mentioned. It might for schools like Duke and Columbia.

I agree giving up in-state tuition at UVA means DC got into a top 10 school. UNless DC qualifies for significant financial aid. Also, Tufts isn't as good as UVA or the others, they just happen to be just as selective but academics wise the others are better.

What about 11? Seriously though, where does the arbitrary line exist?

Good question. All anyone can really tell you is their opinion. If I had to pay close to full vs. in-state for UVA or W&M and objective was perhaps law school, I'd say I'd find it hard not to send them to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, then probably Columbia, Duke, Brown, Dartmouth, Penn, perhaps Williams, Amherst, and maybe Rice. If you are talking science, it would clearly open up MIT and Caltech. Most of these are extremely tough admits. So that is about 14 or so tops. Many would add Chicago. I'd draw the line before Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Tufts, Emory, Wash U, etc. This is all based on my situation and if I was fortunate enough to have a kid with those options.

It is clear that HYPS etc. do have significantly higher representation at elite law schools than UVA or W&M. I recall seeing that about 25% of Yale law students are from Harvard and Yale, and remaining Ivy League plus Stanford take it to 50% plus. But you have to consider that they probably had stellar SATs and would also get stellar LSATs.

Your numbers are wrong, especially at Harvard which is a very large law school. Ivy League representation is way less than 50 percent.

This was the article I remember seeing on Yale. I don't know about Harvard, but I would still think Ivy representation is very high compared to undergraduate population.

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2011/04/18/up-close-tracing-the-elite-law-cycle/

I have never seen Harvard put numbers on it. Just a list of institutions represented: https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/undergraduate-colleges/

Yale is in a league of its own. Also, your article is a little dated.

At least I'm offering real data points. Here is a more recent view of Yale Law enrollment by undergraduate institutions from 2015. Of the schools mentioned, Tufts had 1, Washington University had 7, Emory had 4, UVA had 6, and W&M had 3.

In comparison, Yale had 69, Harvard had 65, Princeton had 37, Columbia had 30, Brown had 22, Dartmouth 19, Amherst 18, Penn 17, Stanford 16, Berkeley 16, and Williams and Duke 13.

Forgot to add the link: http://bulletin.printer.yale.edu/pdffiles/law.pdf

Thanks for the link. As I said, Yale really is in a league of its own. It's long been the most prestigious and selective law school and its yield is over 80 percent. And it, like many of the top law schools, favors its own undergraduates in admissions. I would be stunned if the Ivy League undergrad percentage for Harvard was nearly as high, but I'm also certain that Harvard would be the #1 undergrdad school represented (just as UVA undergrad is at UVA Law).

Finally, the OP isn't deciding between UVA and Yale, but between UVA and a bunch of other schools that are NOT, for the most part, better represented at Yale than UVA is. So you've proven the point that for law school UVA is just as good as any of them.

I used Yale largely because it provides the data. Most schools don't. My view is similar -- there isn't that much difference between WashU/Tufts/Emory and UVA/W&M. The difference tends to be with the Ivy+. When I adjusted for size of undergraduate enrollment, it turned out that Ivy grads are about 12X as likely to end up at Yale Law as a UVA grad. There was a huge range there, with Cornell grads being significantly less likely to end up at Yale Law compared to Yale/Harvard/Princeton. When you compare WashU/Tufts/Emory to UVA, they are only about 1.6X as likely to end up at Yale Law, but that is skewed by WashU, which is the highest.

If this looks like I am taking a shot at UVA, I am not. Looking at the numbers, it appears UVA does better than all publics except Berkeley and W&M, and seems to do pretty well against privates once you get out of the Ivy+.

You're not taking a shot at UVA. I get that. But I also have a sense that you're not a lawyer either. If you were, you'd understand more that Yale really is different. You say you use them largely because they "provide the data when most schools don't." That's probably because their "data" is so extraordinary. No law school enrolls a class quite like Yale's. It's a much more selective school than even Harvard is. We can all agree that if you want to go to Yale Law, go to Harvard or Yale undergrad.

No, it was really down to availability of data. It I'd have had Chicago, etc., I would have shown it. The only other top law school that seem to consistently publish top undergraduate feeder institutions is UVA. It only publishes top 15 or so. It shows, probably not surprisingly, UVA and W&M as top feeders. UVA has much, much less representation from Ivy schools than Yale Law.

Sigh. You're just not getting it. NO law school has Yale's class make up. None. Including Chicago. That UVA is a top ten law school and has "much much less" Ivy representation only proves the point.

Don't sigh and I do get it. No law school has another's makeup. That is a given and Yale is as noted regarded as the most selective. What I was saying is if I had a broader set of data from elite law schools I would have used it. But it does not exist, so I can't. If you could aggregate data from say Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, Chicago, Penn, Michigan, UVA, Berkeley, NYU etc., it would be more meaningful. But the data isn't there.

Sigh again. No, you don't get it. Yale is way more selective than ANY of the other schools you just listed. Again, it has an 82 percent yield. 82 percent! That means more than four out of five admitted students choose it over ANY other law school, including Harvard It's not that no "law school has another's makeup" -- no law school has YALE'S make up.

Again, I will ask, are you a lawyer? Did you go to law school?

Are you saying Yale is an anomaly and other elite graduate schools don't have a significant percentage from the Ivy League?

Nope. First of all, we’re not talking about graduate school in general, we are talking about law school specifically. Second, my point is that Yale has a much higher representation of Ivy League undergraduate in its law school than any other law school does, including other Ivy League law schools. I am certainly not saying that other Ivy League law schools do not have significant representation of Ivy League undergraduates.

The original poster on this point asserted that up to 50% of top law school students have undergraduate degree from the Ivy League. That is not true in the case of any law school other than Yale.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Look UVA bashers, say what you want about the school but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than comparable privates and you know it. You’re just jealous as hell because you can’t get your kids in.

Keep it classy, ‘HooGirl.

PP is an imbecile. It isn’t a question of being admitted.....the privates listed are more selective than UVA. The only people that are jealous are the silly UVA boosters that can’t afford a private and talk themselves into believing that their state uni is comparable.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Look UVA bashers, say what you want about the school but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than comparable privates and you know it. You’re just jealous as hell because you can’t get your kids in.

Keep it classy, ‘HooGirl.

PP is an imbecile. It isn’t a question of being admitted.....the privates listed are more selective than UVA. The only people that are jealous are the silly UVA boosters that can’t afford a private and talk themselves into believing that their state uni is comparable.

This

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look UVA bashers, say what you want about the school but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than comparable privates and you know it. You’re just jealous as hell because you can’t get your kids in.

Keep it classy, ‘HooGirl.

PP is an imbecile. It isn’t a question of being admitted.....the privates listed are more selective than UVA. The only people that are jealous are the silly UVA boosters that can’t afford a private and talk themselves into believing that their state uni is comparable.

+1

Many people can and do provide a better unit for their kids. UVA is a safety for many private school kids going top 20 and everyone is not focused on the cost.

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Anonymous wrote:William and Mary is probably more similar in size and feel to Washington University, Tufts, and Emory if that is what he wants. UVA is great if he wants a larger school, different experience. Perhaps schools like Duke, Columbia, Princeton, etc. would provide more opportunities, but I'm not convinced your private alternatives will. Perhaps focus on that level as reach.

This kind of vague advice is why students fall for the “prestige” factor that may or may not matter for them personally.

It made sense to me. They were just saying any difference in prestige wouldn't make much difference between the schools mentioned. It might for schools like Duke and Columbia.

I agree giving up in-state tuition at UVA means DC got into a top 10 school. UNless DC qualifies for significant financial aid. Also, Tufts isn't as good as UVA or the others, they just happen to be just as selective but academics wise the others are better.

What about 11? Seriously though, where does the arbitrary line exist?

Good question. All anyone can really tell you is their opinion. If I had to pay close to full vs. in-state for UVA or W&M and objective was perhaps law school, I'd say I'd find it hard not to send them to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, then probably Columbia, Duke, Brown, Dartmouth, Penn, perhaps Williams, Amherst, and maybe Rice. If you are talking science, it would clearly open up MIT and Caltech. Most of these are extremely tough admits. So that is about 14 or so tops. Many would add Chicago. I'd draw the line before Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Tufts, Emory, Wash U, etc. This is all based on my situation and if I was fortunate enough to have a kid with those options.

It is clear that HYPS etc. do have significantly higher representation at elite law schools than UVA or W&M. I recall seeing that about 25% of Yale law students are from Harvard and Yale, and remaining Ivy League plus Stanford take it to 50% plus. But you have to consider that they probably had stellar SATs and would also get stellar LSATs.

Your numbers are wrong, especially at Harvard which is a very large law school. Ivy League representation is way less than 50 percent.

This was the article I remember seeing on Yale. I don't know about Harvard, but I would still think Ivy representation is very high compared to undergraduate population.

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2011/04/18/up-close-tracing-the-elite-law-cycle/

I have never seen Harvard put numbers on it. Just a list of institutions represented: https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/undergraduate-colleges/

Yale is in a league of its own. Also, your article is a little dated.

At least I'm offering real data points. Here is a more recent view of Yale Law enrollment by undergraduate institutions from 2015. Of the schools mentioned, Tufts had 1, Washington University had 7, Emory had 4, UVA had 6, and W&M had 3.

In comparison, Yale had 69, Harvard had 65, Princeton had 37, Columbia had 30, Brown had 22, Dartmouth 19, Amherst 18, Penn 17, Stanford 16, Berkeley 16, and Williams and Duke 13.

Forgot to add the link: http://bulletin.printer.yale.edu/pdffiles/law.pdf

Thanks for the link. As I said, Yale really is in a league of its own. It's long been the most prestigious and selective law school and its yield is over 80 percent. And it, like many of the top law schools, favors its own undergraduates in admissions. I would be stunned if the Ivy League undergrad percentage for Harvard was nearly as high, but I'm also certain that Harvard would be the #1 undergrdad school represented (just as UVA undergrad is at UVA Law).

Finally, the OP isn't deciding between UVA and Yale, but between UVA and a bunch of other schools that are NOT, for the most part, better represented at Yale than UVA is. So you've proven the point that for law school UVA is just as good as any of them.

I used Yale largely because it provides the data. Most schools don't. My view is similar -- there isn't that much difference between WashU/Tufts/Emory and UVA/W&M. The difference tends to be with the Ivy+. When I adjusted for size of undergraduate enrollment, it turned out that Ivy grads are about 12X as likely to end up at Yale Law as a UVA grad. There was a huge range there, with Cornell grads being significantly less likely to end up at Yale Law compared to Yale/Harvard/Princeton. When you compare WashU/Tufts/Emory to UVA, they are only about 1.6X as likely to end up at Yale Law, but that is skewed by WashU, which is the highest.

If this looks like I am taking a shot at UVA, I am not. Looking at the numbers, it appears UVA does better than all publics except Berkeley and W&M, and seems to do pretty well against privates once you get out of the Ivy+.

You're not taking a shot at UVA. I get that. But I also have a sense that you're not a lawyer either. If you were, you'd understand more that Yale really is different. You say you use them largely because they "provide the data when most schools don't." That's probably because their "data" is so extraordinary. No law school enrolls a class quite like Yale's. It's a much more selective school than even Harvard is. We can all agree that if you want to go to Yale Law, go to Harvard or Yale undergrad.

No, it was really down to availability of data. It I'd have had Chicago, etc., I would have shown it. The only other top law school that seem to consistently publish top undergraduate feeder institutions is UVA. It only publishes top 15 or so. It shows, probably not surprisingly, UVA and W&M as top feeders. UVA has much, much less representation from Ivy schools than Yale Law.

Sigh. You're just not getting it. NO law school has Yale's class make up. None. Including Chicago. That UVA is a top ten law school and has "much much less" Ivy representation only proves the point.

Don't sigh and I do get it. No law school has another's makeup. That is a given and Yale is as noted regarded as the most selective. What I was saying is if I had a broader set of data from elite law schools I would have used it. But it does not exist, so I can't. If you could aggregate data from say Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, Chicago, Penn, Michigan, UVA, Berkeley, NYU etc., it would be more meaningful. But the data isn't there.

Sigh again. No, you don't get it. Yale is way more selective than ANY of the other schools you just listed. Again, it has an 82 percent yield. 82 percent! That means more than four out of five admitted students choose it over ANY other law school, including Harvard It's not that no "law school has another's makeup" -- no law school has YALE'S make up.

Again, I will ask, are you a lawyer? Did you go to law school?

Are you saying Yale is an anomaly and other elite graduate schools don't have a significant percentage from the Ivy League?

Nope. First of all, we’re not talking about graduate school in general, we are talking about law school specifically. Second, my point is that Yale has a much higher representation of Ivy League undergraduate in its law school than any other law school does, including other Ivy League law schools. I am certainly not saying that other Ivy League law schools do not have significant representation of Ivy League undergraduates.

The original poster on this point asserted that up to 50% of top law school students have undergraduate degree from the Ivy League. That is not true in the case of any law school other than Yale.

Did you even go to an ivy law school?? You ‘factual statement ‘ is not true.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look UVA bashers, say what you want about the school but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than comparable privates and you know it. You’re just jealous as hell because you can’t get your kids in.

Keep it classy, ‘HooGirl.

PP is an imbecile. It isn’t a question of being admitted.....the privates listed are more selective than UVA. The only people that are jealous are the silly UVA boosters that can’t afford a private and talk themselves into believing that their state uni is comparable.

+1

Many people can and do provide a better unit for their kids. UVA is a safety for many private school kids going top 20 and everyone is not focused on the cost.

UVA isn't a safety for anyone

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Look UVA bashers, say what you want about the school but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than comparable privates and you know it. You’re just jealous as hell because you can’t get your kids in.

Keep it classy, ‘HooGirl.

PP is an imbecile. It isn’t a question of being admitted.....the privates listed are more selective than UVA. The only people that are jealous are the silly UVA boosters that can’t afford a private and talk themselves into believing that their state uni is comparable.

+1

Many people can and do provide a better unit for their kids. UVA is a safety for many private school kids going top 20 and everyone is not focused on the cost.

Wrong. UVA is MORE selective and just as expensive as these privates for out of state students, yet UVA still enrolls thousands of them. It's not a "safety" for those students, selectivity wise or financially wise.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look UVA bashers, say what you want about the school but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than comparable privates and you know it. You’re just jealous as hell because you can’t get your kids in.

Keep it classy, ‘HooGirl.

PP is an imbecile. It isn’t a question of being admitted.....the privates listed are more selective than UVA. The only people that are jealous are the silly UVA boosters that can’t afford a private and talk themselves into believing that their state uni is comparable.

Outside the top ~15-16 schools on USNWR, there is ZERO advantage in prestige in attending those schools over UVA. Even if you only care about what other people think, you gain nothing choosing those schools over UVA. You are flushing your money down a toilet if you choose those schools over UVA in-state IF you are doing so because you think others will view your degree in higher regard. That is especially true if the student plans on living/working anywhere in the mid-Atlantic region, which is most likely the case.

I say this from the perspective of someone who hires in the DC area.

[Anonymous]

So OP here (of the whole thread). What I learned is the following:

1. Premium for Wash U, Emory, or Tufts not worth it unless we can do it comfortably. It might be for smaller classes (which we actually like as evidenced by attendance at a local private for High School). But not unless we can do it comfortably. Likely not easy because other kid will likely go to private college (perhaps Ivy because she will ED and has grades, test scores, and ECs). How do I tell second kid not to ED Emory, Wash U, or Tufts when first one will ED an ivy? He will have to wait for EA UVA and he likely will get deferred. I suppose he could ED1 William and Mary and will likely get in.

2. For law school (I am a lawyer), I think it does make a difference where you go and undergraduate makes some difference but not fatal between UVA/William and Mary and the aforementioned privates (I just proved I am a lawyer by using aforementioned in a sentence).

Make sure you flame for my English on a message board because that is what we do on DC Urban Mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So OP here (of the whole thread). What I learned is the following:

1. Premium for Wash U, Emory, or Tufts not worth it unless we can do it comfortably. It might be for smaller classes (which we actually like as evidenced by attendance at a local private for High School). But not unless we can do it comfortably. Likely not easy because other kid will likely go to private college (perhaps Ivy because she will ED and has grades, test scores, and ECs). How do I tell second kid not to ED Emory, Wash U, or Tufts when first one will ED an ivy? He will have to wait for EA UVA and he likely will get deferred. I suppose he could ED1 William and Mary and will likely get in.

2. For law school (I am a lawyer), I think it does make a difference where you go and undergraduate makes some difference but not fatal between UVA/William and Mary and the aforementioned privates (I just proved I am a lawyer by using aforementioned in a sentence).

Make sure you flame for my English on a message board because that is what we do on DC Urban Mom.

I won't flame you for your writing (although it's pretty bad for a lawyer), but I will flame you as someone who obviously has no experience in elite school admissions given how optimistic you are about you kids' acceptances to these schools. It's tougher than you think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So OP here (of the whole thread). What I learned is the following:

1. Premium for Wash U, Emory, or Tufts not worth it unless we can do it comfortably. It might be for smaller classes (which we actually like as evidenced by attendance at a local private for High School). But not unless we can do it comfortably. Likely not easy because other kid will likely go to private college (perhaps Ivy because she will ED and has grades, test scores, and ECs). How do I tell second kid not to ED Emory, Wash U, or Tufts when first one will ED an ivy? He will have to wait for EA UVA and he likely will get deferred. I suppose he could ED1 William and Mary and will likely get in.

2. For law school (I am a lawyer), I think it does make a difference where you go and undergraduate makes some difference but not fatal between UVA/William and Mary and the aforementioned privates (I just proved I am a lawyer by using aforementioned in a sentence).

Make sure you flame for my English on a message board because that is what we do on DC Urban Mom.

I won't flame you for your writing (although it's pretty bad for a lawyer), but I will flame you as someone who obviously has no experience in elite school admissions given how optimistic you are about you kids' acceptances to these schools. It's tougher than you think.

It's a message board girlfriend not a legal brief. I will send you some writing samples. The conclusions are based on both internal school counselors and paid outside counselors (yes we can afford a few hours for consultants but that is different from four years of tuition at $75,000).