Indiana's Religious Freedom law

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

IIRC, this is sort of like what the Christian baker in Oregon described. After he refused to sell to the lesbian couple, he got a ton of orders from pro-religion / anti-gay groups nationwide, and his business was booming for six months. Then as the news articles subsided, his out-of-state business dried up. Since his local business reputation was trashed, he had to close the bakery for lack of orders. I suspect the pizza place might get the same initial support, but will face long-term problems.

I don't see how his reputation was "trashed." He is anti-gay-marriage and wouldn't provide wedding cakes to gay couples. That's not smear -- that's the truth. So, once the ruckus died down, the local market decided to vote with their feet and take their money somewhere else. Works for me.

Yea, I do not get the PP's who somehow think that these folks are somehow "entitled" to a certain amouunt of business. My religous views aside, it was dumb for a small business owner to take this sort of stand, especially in the Pacific NW. From a business perspective, he had a poor handle on his market. Further, if his views were so lauded by Christians, why didn't local Christians go out of their way to patronize him long term? That's the questions some of blaming "Libtard" rabble rousers should be asking.

They apparently are doing online business now i would never open brick and mortar these days for lots of reasons. The fund for the pizza place is now at half a mil. Clearly there are like-minded folks, and others who are simp,y sick of the bullying left

This was never about religion. “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14

This is about bigotry, no ifs, ands or buts. A TRUE Christian would have instead spent the $500,000 on pizzas to feed the homeless rather than spending it to prop up bigotry and hate.

This pizza parlor, and its supporters, 50 years ago would have been the exact same people refusing to let blacks eat at a lunch counter. The behavior is one and the same and is as inexcusable now as it was then.

And, who exactly are YOU to judge?

Matthew 7:1-3: Judge not, that ye be not judged.

How do YOU know how this family will spend the money? You don’t.
And, how do YOU know what this family would have done 50 years ago? You don’t.
Seems to me that liberals are the MOST judgmental people here.

But I guess it's fine to judge gays and deem them unfit to do business with.

They are NOT judging gays.
They cannot, in good conscience, cater a gay wedding. According to their religious beliefs.
Remember, they have stated they welcome gays into their restaurant and would serve them. It is not about being gay.
It is about the religious aspect of the ceremony.

If these Christian groups had constrained themselves to this single principled distinction for the last thirty years, I might believe them. Unfortunately they have fought gays every single step of the way.

[Anonymous]

For all of you trying to restrict this law to providing flowers for and catering gay weddings and trying to convince yourself that is no big deal, you're missing the point. The implications of this law go way beyond that, and it's discrimination, pure and simple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

IIRC, this is sort of like what the Christian baker in Oregon described. After he refused to sell to the lesbian couple, he got a ton of orders from pro-religion / anti-gay groups nationwide, and his business was booming for six months. Then as the news articles subsided, his out-of-state business dried up. Since his local business reputation was trashed, he had to close the bakery for lack of orders. I suspect the pizza place might get the same initial support, but will face long-term problems.

I don't see how his reputation was "trashed." He is anti-gay-marriage and wouldn't provide wedding cakes to gay couples. That's not smear -- that's the truth. So, once the ruckus died down, the local market decided to vote with their feet and take their money somewhere else. Works for me.

Yea, I do not get the PP's who somehow think that these folks are somehow "entitled" to a certain amouunt of business. My religous views aside, it was dumb for a small business owner to take this sort of stand, especially in the Pacific NW. From a business perspective, he had a poor handle on his market. Further, if his views were so lauded by Christians, why didn't local Christians go out of their way to patronize him long term? That's the questions some of blaming "Libtard" rabble rousers should be asking.

They apparently are doing online business now i would never open brick and mortar these days for lots of reasons. The fund for the pizza place is now at half a mil. Clearly there are like-minded folks, and others who are simp,y sick of the bullying left

This was never about religion. “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14

This is about bigotry, no ifs, ands or buts. A TRUE Christian would have instead spent the $500,000 on pizzas to feed the homeless rather than spending it to prop up bigotry and hate.

This pizza parlor, and its supporters, 50 years ago would have been the exact same people refusing to let blacks eat at a lunch counter. The behavior is one and the same and is as inexcusable now as it was then.

And, who exactly are YOU to judge?

Matthew 7:1-3: Judge not, that ye be not judged.

How do YOU know how this family will spend the money? You don’t.
And, how do YOU know what this family would have done 50 years ago? You don’t.
Seems to me that liberals are the MOST judgmental people here.

But I guess it's fine to judge gays and deem them unfit to do business with.

They are NOT judging gays.
They cannot, in good conscience, cater a gay wedding. According to their religious beliefs.
Remember, they have stated they welcome gays into their restaurant and would serve them. It is not about being gay.
It is about the religious aspect of the ceremony.

If these Christian groups had constrained themselves to this single principled distinction for the last thirty years, I might believe them. Unfortunately they have fought gays every single step of the way.

Please elaborate on how “these Christian groups” have fought gays.
First, you are lumping ALL Christian groups into a single group.
Secondly, just because one believes that marriage is a holy ceremony between a man and woman does NOT mean they have “fought gays.”
This is the issue that Christians who believe in traditional marriage have with those who say they are “hating.”
It is not about the person - who happens to be gay - but the ceremony, which some believe to be a religious one.
But, the left’s narrative is that if you are against gay marriage, you are a hater, and a bigot.
There is nothing further from the truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

IIRC, this is sort of like what the Christian baker in Oregon described. After he refused to sell to the lesbian couple, he got a ton of orders from pro-religion / anti-gay groups nationwide, and his business was booming for six months. Then as the news articles subsided, his out-of-state business dried up. Since his local business reputation was trashed, he had to close the bakery for lack of orders. I suspect the pizza place might get the same initial support, but will face long-term problems.

I don't see how his reputation was "trashed." He is anti-gay-marriage and wouldn't provide wedding cakes to gay couples. That's not smear -- that's the truth. So, once the ruckus died down, the local market decided to vote with their feet and take their money somewhere else. Works for me.

Yea, I do not get the PP's who somehow think that these folks are somehow "entitled" to a certain amouunt of business. My religous views aside, it was dumb for a small business owner to take this sort of stand, especially in the Pacific NW. From a business perspective, he had a poor handle on his market. Further, if his views were so lauded by Christians, why didn't local Christians go out of their way to patronize him long term? That's the questions some of blaming "Libtard" rabble rousers should be asking.

They apparently are doing online business now i would never open brick and mortar these days for lots of reasons. The fund for the pizza place is now at half a mil. Clearly there are like-minded folks, and others who are simp,y sick of the bullying left

This was never about religion. “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14

This is about bigotry, no ifs, ands or buts. A TRUE Christian would have instead spent the $500,000 on pizzas to feed the homeless rather than spending it to prop up bigotry and hate.

This pizza parlor, and its supporters, 50 years ago would have been the exact same people refusing to let blacks eat at a lunch counter. The behavior is one and the same and is as inexcusable now as it was then.

And, who exactly are YOU to judge?

Matthew 7:1-3: Judge not, that ye be not judged.

How do YOU know how this family will spend the money? You don’t.
And, how do YOU know what this family would have done 50 years ago? You don’t.
Seems to me that liberals are the MOST judgmental people here.

But I guess it's fine to judge gays and deem them unfit to do business with.

They are NOT judging gays.
They cannot, in good conscience, cater a gay wedding. According to their religious beliefs.
Remember, they have stated they welcome gays into their restaurant and would serve them. It is not about being gay.
It is about the religious aspect of the ceremony.

They are baking a cake that will be served at the reception, so I am not buying that part of the argument. No one is asking them to participate in the religous ceremony. In my view, their objections are against the marraige. Thus, they do not want to participate in anything that is deemed supporting the marriage - even if is not the ceremony itself. To me, that is the slippery slope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

IIRC, this is sort of like what the Christian baker in Oregon described. After he refused to sell to the lesbian couple, he got a ton of orders from pro-religion / anti-gay groups nationwide, and his business was booming for six months. Then as the news articles subsided, his out-of-state business dried up. Since his local business reputation was trashed, he had to close the bakery for lack of orders. I suspect the pizza place might get the same initial support, but will face long-term problems.

I don't see how his reputation was "trashed." He is anti-gay-marriage and wouldn't provide wedding cakes to gay couples. That's not smear -- that's the truth. So, once the ruckus died down, the local market decided to vote with their feet and take their money somewhere else. Works for me.

Yea, I do not get the PP's who somehow think that these folks are somehow "entitled" to a certain amouunt of business. My religous views aside, it was dumb for a small business owner to take this sort of stand, especially in the Pacific NW. From a business perspective, he had a poor handle on his market. Further, if his views were so lauded by Christians, why didn't local Christians go out of their way to patronize him long term? That's the questions some of blaming "Libtard" rabble rousers should be asking.

They apparently are doing online business now i would never open brick and mortar these days for lots of reasons. The fund for the pizza place is now at half a mil. Clearly there are like-minded folks, and others who are simp,y sick of the bullying left

This was never about religion. “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14

This is about bigotry, no ifs, ands or buts. A TRUE Christian would have instead spent the $500,000 on pizzas to feed the homeless rather than spending it to prop up bigotry and hate.

This pizza parlor, and its supporters, 50 years ago would have been the exact same people refusing to let blacks eat at a lunch counter. The behavior is one and the same and is as inexcusable now as it was then.

And, who exactly are YOU to judge?

Matthew 7:1-3: Judge not, that ye be not judged.

How do YOU know how this family will spend the money? You don’t.
And, how do YOU know what this family would have done 50 years ago? You don’t.
Seems to me that liberals are the MOST judgmental people here.

But I guess it's fine to judge gays and deem them unfit to do business with.

They are NOT judging gays.
They cannot, in good conscience, cater a gay wedding. According to their religious beliefs.
Remember, they have stated they welcome gays into their restaurant and would serve them. It is not about being gay.
It is about the religious aspect of the ceremony.

If these Christian groups had constrained themselves to this single principled distinction for the last thirty years, I might believe them. Unfortunately they have fought gays every single step of the way.

Please elaborate on how “these Christian groups” have fought gays.
First, you are lumping ALL Christian groups into a single group.
Secondly, just because one believes that marriage is a holy ceremony between a man and woman does NOT mean they have “fought gays.”
This is the issue that Christians who believe in traditional marriage have with those who say they are “hating.”
It is not about the person - who happens to be gay - but the ceremony, which some believe to be a religious one.
But, the left’s narrative is that if you are against gay marriage, you are a hater, and a bigot.
There is nothing further from the truth.

Ok then - why were Cons (including Christians) against the civil partnerships and civil union concept then?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
This is the issue that Christians who believe in traditional marriage have with those who say they are “hating.”
It is not about the person - who happens to be gay - but the ceremony, which some believe to be a religious one.
But, the left’s narrative is that if you are against gay marriage, you are a hater, and a bigot.
There is nothing further from the truth.

Taking you at your word that the religious nature of marriage is what is important to you, how do you feel about marriages celebrated by non-Christian religions? If a Christian baker were asked to provide a cake for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or even atheists, would that violate your religious principles? What about a wedding in which one male and one woman were going to exchange vows before a graven image? Could a Christian baker provide a cake for that wedding?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fund is up to almost $72,000 for the pizza place owners and consistently growing.

IIRC, this is sort of like what the Christian baker in Oregon described. After he refused to sell to the lesbian couple, he got a ton of orders from pro-religion / anti-gay groups nationwide, and his business was booming for six months. Then as the news articles subsided, his out-of-state business dried up. Since his local business reputation was trashed, he had to close the bakery for lack of orders. I suspect the pizza place might get the same initial support, but will face long-term problems.

I don't see how his reputation was "trashed." He is anti-gay-marriage and wouldn't provide wedding cakes to gay couples. That's not smear -- that's the truth. So, once the ruckus died down, the local market decided to vote with their feet and take their money somewhere else. Works for me.

Yea, I do not get the PP's who somehow think that these folks are somehow "entitled" to a certain amouunt of business. My religous views aside, it was dumb for a small business owner to take this sort of stand, especially in the Pacific NW. From a business perspective, he had a poor handle on his market. Further, if his views were so lauded by Christians, why didn't local Christians go out of their way to patronize him long term? That's the questions some of blaming "Libtard" rabble rousers should be asking.

They apparently are doing online business now i would never open brick and mortar these days for lots of reasons. The fund for the pizza place is now at half a mil. Clearly there are like-minded folks, and others who are simp,y sick of the bullying left

This was never about religion. “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14

This is about bigotry, no ifs, ands or buts. A TRUE Christian would have instead spent the $500,000 on pizzas to feed the homeless rather than spending it to prop up bigotry and hate.

This pizza parlor, and its supporters, 50 years ago would have been the exact same people refusing to let blacks eat at a lunch counter. The behavior is one and the same and is as inexcusable now as it was then.

And, who exactly are YOU to judge?

Matthew 7:1-3: Judge not, that ye be not judged.

How do YOU know how this family will spend the money? You don’t.
And, how do YOU know what this family would have done 50 years ago? You don’t.
Seems to me that liberals are the MOST judgmental people here.

But I guess it's fine to judge gays and deem them unfit to do business with.

They are NOT judging gays.
They cannot, in good conscience, cater a gay wedding. According to their religious beliefs.
Remember, they have stated they welcome gays into their restaurant and would serve them. It is not about being gay.
It is about the religious aspect of the ceremony.

If these Christian groups had constrained themselves to this single principled distinction for the last thirty years, I might believe them. Unfortunately they have fought gays every single step of the way.

Please elaborate on how “these Christian groups” have fought gays.
First, you are lumping ALL Christian groups into a single group.
Secondly, just because one believes that marriage is a holy ceremony between a man and woman does NOT mean they have “fought gays.”
This is the issue that Christians who believe in traditional marriage have with those who say they are “hating.”
It is not about the person - who happens to be gay - but the ceremony, which some believe to be a religious one.
But, the left’s narrative is that if you are against gay marriage, you are a hater, and a bigot.
There is nothing further from the truth.

So essentially this is not so much about discrimination as it is about establishing an American version of Shari’a law.
Shari’a law, when imposed on a population by force, makes a single religion’s teachings (often a single sect of that religion’s teachings) the law of the land. The mission is to force everyone to follow the teachings lest they be punished. Although RFRA supporters aren’t physically assaulting people, they certainly are attempting to punish those who don’t follow their own very specific interpretation of God’s teachings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are NOT judging gays.
They cannot, in good conscience, cater a gay wedding. According to their religious beliefs.
Remember, they have stated they welcome gays into their restaurant and would serve them. It is not about being gay.
It is about the religious aspect of the ceremony.

But they're not religious beliefs- they are using religion to justify hateful, homophobic beliefs.

They ARE their religious beliefs.
You are judging again.

As long as the pizza folks refrain from wearing clothing of different fabrics, touching a woman when she has her period, mixing dairy and meat, eating shellfish, touching the skin of a pig, working on the Sabbath, coveting their neighbor, or bearing false witness- I would agree they aren't selectively using passages to justify homophobic beliefs. But I'm guessing that's not the case. So they are hypocrites. Yes, I'm judging them. But that line of reasoning should apply to anyone who refuses to serve a gay wedding- don't judge them, just sell the cake or pizza or whatever.

fwiw- I was a NP. There are many PPs disagreeing with your Leviticus-driven view of the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are NOT judging gays.
They cannot, in good conscience, cater a gay wedding. According to their religious beliefs.
Remember, they have stated they welcome gays into their restaurant and would serve them. It is not about being gay.
It is about the religious aspect of the ceremony.

But they're not religious beliefs- they are using religion to justify hateful, homophobic beliefs.

They ARE their religious beliefs.
You are judging again.

As long as the pizza folks refrain from wearing clothing of different fabrics, touching a woman when she has her period, mixing dairy and meat, eating shellfish, touching the skin of a pig, working on the Sabbath, coveting their neighbor, or bearing false witness- I would agree they aren't selectively using passages to justify homophobic beliefs. But I'm guessing that's not the case. So they are hypocrites. Yes, I'm judging them. But that line of reasoning should apply to anyone who refuses to serve a gay wedding- don't judge them, just sell the cake or pizza or whatever.

fwiw- I was a NP. There are many PPs disagreeing with your Leviticus-driven view of the world.

Right...and don't forget that Leviticus also says that you shall not vex foreigners in your land. Seems inconsistent with some Con's view of immigration.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read the 21 pages of this discussion….but didn't the US Supreme Court already decide this issue with the Boy Scouts of America case some years back? The BSA was allowed to reject gays because it proved that the organization was predominantly based or founded on Christian principles. Thus, any business can discriminate gays IF it is truly a religious based organization. A baker, for example, who makes anniversary and birthday cakes for all religions and even non religious events can not suddenly refuse to bake a cake for a gay couple. But if he is baking only Christian themed cakes, then his bakery is deemed a Christian bakery and he may refuse to bake cakes for gay couples.

Isn't this so?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't get the defense I'm seeing: "I'm not a bigot! I have no problem with gays! I just don't like gay marriage!" Why do people think that that isn't discriminatory? "I'm not prejudiced! I think you're mostly people!" How is that any different than "I have no problem with Jews! I just don't think they should be allowed to marry outside their religion!"

I agree. I think people who oppose gay marriage fail to grasp the basic rights long-term gay couples cannot enjoy- adoption, medical decision making, joint filing of taxes, and shared wealth. Its as though legal gay marriage will suddenly create millions of homosexuals when in reality, it just recognizes the reality that millions of gay people are in committed, long-term relationships (often with children) without equal legal protection.

You are incorrect about all these points. Simple legal documents fix these issues. I am heterosexual and married, yet was able to act as the medical decision maker for acfroend having surgery. I signed a form and so did he prior. My mother was in a car accident and the hospital at first refused information to my father due to HIPPA - 50 year marriage.

The ONLY one of those listed that can be fixed by a "simple legal document" is medical power of attorney. And often you have to jump through some serious bureaucracy before you are recognized, which is not much help if you just got pulled out of a wreck.

I literally signed a paper. So did he. No hoops

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are NOT judging gays.
They cannot, in good conscience, cater a gay wedding. According to their religious beliefs.
Remember, they have stated they welcome gays into their restaurant and would serve them. It is not about being gay.
It is about the religious aspect of the ceremony.

But they're not religious beliefs- they are using religion to justify hateful, homophobic beliefs.

Should the same people turn down an event by KKK?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are NOT judging gays.
They cannot, in good conscience, cater a gay wedding. According to their religious beliefs.
Remember, they have stated they welcome gays into their restaurant and would serve them. It is not about being gay.
It is about the religious aspect of the ceremony.

But they're not religious beliefs- they are using religion to justify hateful, homophobic beliefs.

Should the same people turn down an event by KKK?

I don't think criminal organizations are considered a protected class.

[Anonymous]

Arnold Schwarzenegger has a good article on this.

"If the Republican Party wants the next generation of voters to listen to our ideas and solutions to real problems, we must be an inclusive and open party, not a party of divisions. We must be the party of limited government, not the party that legislates love. We must be the party that stands for equality and against discrimination in any form."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/03/schwarzenegger-indianas-religious-freedom-law-is-bad-for-america-and-bad-for-republicans/?tid=sm_fb

[Anonymous]

If you are going to open a public business, then you should serve ALL of the public.

Doesn't anyone remember the Greensboro lunch counter sit-ins in 1960? Those were about discrimination and refusing to serve people based on race. The same goes for ethnicity, religion, and sexual orientation.

For 50 years, that kind of discrimination has been against the law. Now, suddenly Indiana decides that businesses should be allowed to discriminate.