SCOTUS outlaws race as college admissions factor

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do think this a blow to diversity on college campuses, but I also think schools will get creative with how they keep said diversity. Pay attention to student zip codes who apply, the racial make up of the HS they attend, read the essays for clues as to the students race/ethnicity, etc.

Provide a picture. Hire admissions office who care about diversity, and they will manage the rest. It wouldn't surprise me if Harvard never had a directive to lower Asians' personality scores, the people reviewing the applicants just did it by themselves because they knew what the goal was and what the obstacles were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So gender and national origin can still be considered? Women born in Africa get to be considered for that reason?

People from other countries will have an advantage, regardless of race, if they have the money for full pay tuition.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it’s 2400). Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

This research was published in a PUP book called No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life by Thomas J. Espenshade & Alexandria Walton Radford (a free excerpt here: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s9072.pdf)

White people should view asians as more of a threat to their kids' chances of getting into an elite college than blacks and hispanics. I would say be careful what you wish for, but unfortunately for them, it's too late.

Again 72% of Asians have college degrees. No one is discriminating against them. They’re still going to colleges/universities. Only 43% of white hold a college degree. They’re upset that 100% of Asian students who apply to Harvard are not accepted.

No, they’re upset because Asian students are being held to much higher standards than students of other races. Asians are also tired of having their personalities used negatively against them that is also disgustingly based on racial stereotypes.

Way to try to deflect from the true issue.

Is there an "Asian personality"?

Ask Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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I'm one of those Democrats who is happy to see this ruling. I'd rather see affirmative action on the basis of socioeconomic status rather than race. It would probably get you to the same conclusion rather than giving preferential treatment to UMC and UC POCs.

Same.

[Anonymous]

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Now do public opinion on Dobbs, which 80% of Americans disagree with.

They are not similar. Here the Supreme Court banned certain practices, discrimination based on race. In Dobbs they declined to ban certain practices, states restricting abortions. A better comparison would be if Dobbs outlawed abortion nationwide, something which many pro-lifers advocate under the 14th amendment equal protection clause, which is what the Supreme Court used for the affirmative action case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think this a blow to diversity on college campuses, but I also think schools will get creative with how they keep said diversity. Pay attention to student zip codes who apply, the racial make up of the HS they attend, read the essays for clues as to the students race/ethnicity, etc.

That still using race.

Lawsuits will fly.

Yes but it will be less obvious and thus harder to prove in court. Barry Goldwater said you can't legislate morality, and if colleges want to discriminate based on race they will find ways around it.
We have already seen this as California banned affirmative action for its colleges in the 90s, and the UC system found creative ways to continue what they were doing.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Racist DCUMers claiming Asians students are basically all the same and all have affluence and tutoring when there are massive differences between people of South East Asian decent vs those of North East and East Asian descent. SE Asians are way more impoverished, yet they get lumped in with the stupidly broad category of 'Asian'. It's almost as if a continent with 3+ billion people is not monolithic and descendants from those areas in our country have vastly different experiences.

Good for Asians for standing up for their rights to not be judged based on their race or ridiculously offensive racial stereotypes that are used to pre-emptiveky judge their character and personality by admissions staff. It's so insane we have to argue over this. The road to hell is always paved with good intentions, but affirmative action led us down the path of using race based discrimination and ridiculous personality stereotypes of Asians to help people reject them from.admisisons and jobs just so they could reach a desired quota.

72% of Asians hold college degrees. Tell me where the discrimination is?!

Still waiting for an answer. Where is the discrimination?

Harvard applied much higher admissions standards to Asian applicants, with the lowest admission rates despite having the highest scores. Blacks, by contrast, have the lowest scores and GPAs but the highest admission rates among races. If that is not discrimination, then there is no such thing as discrimination.

How will this be policed and disclosed going forward? Can't Harvard just use some other fig leaf to get to the same result?

Absolutely. If you think diversity at Harvard is fig leaf and Harvard thinks it is important, why do you want to attend? You do not even agree with their educational mission.

The decision has a dumptruck sized loophole written right into it. The court says that: "Nothing prohibits universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected the applicant’s life, so long as that discussion is concretely tied to a quality of character or unique ability that the particular applicant can contribute to the university.” Colleges will just use the applicant essays to do this. That will further privilege wealthy minorities who know how to play this game, and disadvantage poor ones who don't.

It appears elsewhere in the ruling, "But, despite the dissent’s assertion to the contrary, universities may not simply establish through application essays or other means the regime we hold unlawful today.” I don't think that loophole is that big. " [W]hat can
not be done directly cannot be done indirectly."

Is SCOTUS going to sit in the Harvard admissions office to police whether the admissions office is making the decision based only on race, or instead based on how their race is tried to their character or ability to contribute?

No, but you can bet every bulldozer parent will now litigate every rejection from every elite school.

I wonder if admissions officers can be held personally liable in these cases. Can you imagine how much litigation this decision will result in? Universities are going to have make their decisions and policies "litigation proof". As usual, the only beneficiaries are the lawyers and consultants!

No, the admissions officers cannot be held personally liable. The universities aren't even being held "liable" in the sense of having to pay money damages. They are just being ordered to stop doing what they've been doing.

So if they continue to do it they will be liable.

Liable for what. What’s the cost? SCOTUS cannot assess penalties. SCOTUS cannot even enforce. You need they legislative and executive branches to do bothe of those.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it’s 2400). Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

This research was published in a PUP book called No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life by Thomas J. Espenshade & Alexandria Walton Radford (a free excerpt here: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s9072.pdf)

White people should view asians as more of a threat to their kids' chances of getting into an elite college than blacks and hispanics. I would say be careful what you wish for, but unfortunately for them, it's too late.

Again 72% of Asians have college degrees. No one is discriminating against them. They’re still going to colleges/universities. Only 43% of white hold a college degree. They’re upset that 100% of Asian students who apply to Harvard are not accepted.

Elite colleges always had a 20% quota for asians. It was not explicit but implicit. Since these quotas weren't explicit, I suppose they can continue imposing those quotas based on "qualitative" aka racist reasons.

Again, not everyone who applies gets in. There are thousands of non-Asian students who get rejected each year who have good grades and high test scores and outstanding extracurriculars but you don’t see them suing to end Affirmative Action.

[Anonymous]

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I'm one of those Democrats who is happy to see this ruling. I'd rather see affirmative action on the basis of socioeconomic status rather than race. It would probably get you to the same conclusion rather than giving preferential treatment to UMC and UC POCs.

It doesn't get you there. California has already proven that. As a black woman, I am devasted. How do you eliminate affirmative action when merit is not real. You have many black and latino students graduated from substandard schools and white kids going to high school with golf courses. SAT scores are based on income, not intelligence.

We haven't even come to terms with race in this country.

And you apparently haven't come to terms with class. There are a TON of poor and lower income whites in this country. You really need to get out more.

As a poor white trash kid, I had zero problems getting into college. I had problems paying for it. But you also want to ban student loan forgiveness. Ergo only rich whites and Asian kids will be in school.

I don't want the government to pick up another trillion dollars in debt. Have the government out of student loans, and if a bank wants to forgive its loans that's fine with me.
Or maybe they should have the colleges' pick up the tab for the failed student loans. Instead they take advantage of the government paying for college by raising their prices and giving themselves big raises.

[Anonymous]

Imagine if schools like Harvard rejected black male candidates because admissions staff gave them negative personality scores for things like ‘probably prone to violence’ and ‘most likely to act unruly and without discipline in the classroom’. How outrageous would that be? Of course it’d be despicable to reject a black man for negative personality scores based on racial stereotypes like that. So why should we tolerate that crap but for Asians? And you wonder why Asians are upset when Affirmative Action setup a system where they have to be judged in their personality, which ended up being based on racial stereotypes of their perceived behavior. I can’t believe we even need to discuss this. Affirmative Action should have died a long time ago based on the monstrosity it morphed into. Maybe at first it had merit, but it just ended up becoming a race based system using stereotypes to judge people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm one of those Democrats who is happy to see this ruling. I'd rather see affirmative action on the basis of socioeconomic status rather than race. It would probably get you to the same conclusion rather than giving preferential treatment to UMC and UC POCs.

Same.

Yep.

But they don’t want to give out more grants based on socioeconomic status so see people getting in more now who don’t need financial aid and them being pickier of who gets in who need financial aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think this a blow to diversity on college campuses, but I also think schools will get creative with how they keep said diversity. Pay attention to student zip codes who apply, the racial make up of the HS they attend, read the essays for clues as to the students race/ethnicity, etc.

That still using race.

Lawsuits will fly.

But that is much harder to prove. They are allowed to aim for geographical diversity, so using zip codes should be fine. How can you prove that because I mentioned race in my personal essay that that is why I was admitted? It’s a harder criteria to prove.

If geography is used as a proxy for race, that is not allowed. But like you said harder to prove. Loudoun got out of it in its magnet admissions by putting up a slide that said ,'Georgraphy is not being used as a proxy for race.'

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it’s 2400). Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

This research was published in a PUP book called No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life by Thomas J. Espenshade & Alexandria Walton Radford (a free excerpt here: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s9072.pdf)

White people should view asians as more of a threat to their kids' chances of getting into an elite college than blacks and hispanics. I would say be careful what you wish for, but unfortunately for them, it's too late.

Again 72% of Asians have college degrees. No one is discriminating against them. They’re still going to colleges/universities. Only 43% of white hold a college degree. They’re upset that 100% of Asian students who apply to Harvard are not accepted.

This is silly. Would you accept that URMs who WILL NOT get into Harvard ARE NOT discriminated against because they will go to college somewhere?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What about athletic recruits? Athletics is not considered for admission to Oxford or Cambridge. Why is it considered so important here, beyond showing leadership and teamwork? Shouldn't high school debaters or actors get equal consideration?

They do, especially if the university is looking to fill spots on the debate teams. Yale gives extra points to high school actors applying to their drama school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it’s 2400). Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

This research was published in a PUP book called No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life by Thomas J. Espenshade & Alexandria Walton Radford (a free excerpt here: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s9072.pdf)

White people should view asians as more of a threat to their kids' chances of getting into an elite college than blacks and hispanics. I would say be careful what you wish for, but unfortunately for them, it's too late.

Again 72% of Asians have college degrees. No one is discriminating against them. They’re still going to colleges/universities. Only 43% of white hold a college degree. They’re upset that 100% of Asian students who apply to Harvard are not accepted.

No, they’re upset because Asian students are being held to much higher standards than students of other races. Asians are also tired of having their personalities used negatively against them that is also disgustingly based on racial stereotypes.

Way to try to deflect from the true issue.

Asians are still getting college degrees, sweetie. No one is discriminating against them. If only 25% had college degrees, I would agree with discriminatory practices.