Told by christian friend that my lifelong depression is because I don’t “know Jesus”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Dude, you don’t believe in God. You talk about your non-belief constantly,

Uhh, you don't know me, and no I don't, only at times, such as when discussing religion in a religion forum. I know when you would like me to discuss it, which is never, illustrated perfectly by your script of how you'd like it to go.

and no one tells you you have to believe in God, no one tells you your disbelief in God is wrong.

This is completely untrue, here and in the world. But I don't care if people tell me that their belief is right and mine is wrong, and I am completely willing to have a discussion about it, and will change my mind if sufficient evidence is presented. Will you?

No one tries to convince you to believe in God. People here respect your disbelief in God.

Want me to copy and paste all the times believers say presuppositional BS like "if you won't accept the truth that is your problem" and "you'll learn in the afterlife" and stuff like that? Hell just drive down the highway near my house, every fifth billboard is telling me I am wrong to not believe. So I think it will be hard for you to say anything more wrong or easily disproved than "No one tries to convince you to believe in God. People here respect your disbelief in God".

You are the one demanding many believers show evidence of their beliefs. As a Christian, I am happy to share my faith with anyone who asks. But if you don’t ask, I am not going to try to show you evidence and try to convince you my beliefs are right.

But we are asking here, this is a fricking forum designed to discuss religion, not the checkout line at the supermarket. There's no other reason to be here other than to discuss this. This is exactly, and by (human!) design, the appropriate place to have that discussion.

I am not reading all that.

I'd say because non-religious poster has backed you into a corner where you have no cogent response, in your own opinion. Why? because previously you haven't hesitated to respond.

DP. No, because Christian pp made her point, which is that she’s secure on her faith and isn’t demanding atheist pp convert. Atheist pl just won’t let go so she changes the question a bit. Nobody has time for that.

I can't tell, but I bet this is not a "DP" but is actually Christian pp trying to bolster their case. Whatever -- go out and enjoy your evening. Maybe next time you come to the religion forum you won't attempt to convert a non-believer and thus avoid getting backed into a corner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Dude, you don’t believe in God. You talk about your non-belief constantly,

Uhh, you don't know me, and no I don't, only at times, such as when discussing religion in a religion forum. I know when you would like me to discuss it, which is never, illustrated perfectly by your script of how you'd like it to go.

and no one tells you you have to believe in God, no one tells you your disbelief in God is wrong.

This is completely untrue, here and in the world. But I don't care if people tell me that their belief is right and mine is wrong, and I am completely willing to have a discussion about it, and will change my mind if sufficient evidence is presented. Will you?

No one tries to convince you to believe in God. People here respect your disbelief in God.

Want me to copy and paste all the times believers say presuppositional BS like "if you won't accept the truth that is your problem" and "you'll learn in the afterlife" and stuff like that? Hell just drive down the highway near my house, every fifth billboard is telling me I am wrong to not believe. So I think it will be hard for you to say anything more wrong or easily disproved than "No one tries to convince you to believe in God. People here respect your disbelief in God".

You are the one demanding many believers show evidence of their beliefs. As a Christian, I am happy to share my faith with anyone who asks. But if you don’t ask, I am not going to try to show you evidence and try to convince you my beliefs are right.

But we are asking here, this is a fricking forum designed to discuss religion, not the checkout line at the supermarket. There's no other reason to be here other than to discuss this. This is exactly, and by (human!) design, the appropriate place to have that discussion.

I am not reading all that.

I'd say because non-religious poster has backed you into a corner where you have no cogent response, in your own opinion. Why? because previously you haven't hesitated to respond.

DP. No, because Christian pp made her point, which is that she’s secure on her faith and isn’t demanding atheist pp convert. Atheist pl just won’t let go so she changes the question a bit. Nobody has time for that.

I can't tell, but I bet this is not a "DP" but is actually Christian pp trying to bolster their case. Whatever -- go out and enjoy your evening. Maybe next time you come to the religion forum you won't attempt to convert a non-believer and thus avoid getting backed into a corner.

Lol, ask the moderator. And you wonder why your paranoid behavior and lame gotcha games don’t attract more people to engage with you. No sane adult would go down a rabbit hole with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Dude, you don’t believe in God. You talk about your non-belief constantly,

Uhh, you don't know me, and no I don't, only at times, such as when discussing religion in a religion forum. I know when you would like me to discuss it, which is never, illustrated perfectly by your script of how you'd like it to go.

and no one tells you you have to believe in God, no one tells you your disbelief in God is wrong.

This is completely untrue, here and in the world. But I don't care if people tell me that their belief is right and mine is wrong, and I am completely willing to have a discussion about it, and will change my mind if sufficient evidence is presented. Will you?

No one tries to convince you to believe in God. People here respect your disbelief in God.

Want me to copy and paste all the times believers say presuppositional BS like "if you won't accept the truth that is your problem" and "you'll learn in the afterlife" and stuff like that? Hell just drive down the highway near my house, every fifth billboard is telling me I am wrong to not believe. So I think it will be hard for you to say anything more wrong or easily disproved than "No one tries to convince you to believe in God. People here respect your disbelief in God".

You are the one demanding many believers show evidence of their beliefs. As a Christian, I am happy to share my faith with anyone who asks. But if you don’t ask, I am not going to try to show you evidence and try to convince you my beliefs are right.

But we are asking here, this is a fricking forum designed to discuss religion, not the checkout line at the supermarket. There's no other reason to be here other than to discuss this. This is exactly, and by (human!) design, the appropriate place to have that discussion.

I am not reading all that.

I'd say because non-religious poster has backed you into a corner where you have no cogent response, in your own opinion. Why? because previously you haven't hesitated to respond.

DP. No, because Christian pp made her point, which is that she’s secure on her faith and isn’t demanding atheist pp convert. Atheist pl just won’t let go so she changes the question a bit. Nobody has time for that.

I can't tell, but I bet this is not a "DP" but is actually Christian pp trying to bolster their case. Whatever -- go out and enjoy your evening. Maybe next time you come to the religion forum you won't attempt to convert a non-believer and thus avoid getting backed into a corner.

Lol, ask the moderator. And you wonder why your paranoid behavior and lame gotcha games don’t attract more people to engage with you. No sane adult would go down a rabbit hole with you.

That actually is a different poster.

[Anonymous]

Run, quickly and far away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

1) I don't see what watchman argument proves or disapproves. Everything I know is designed because a designer designed it.

See? Your position is everything is designed, therefore you can't tell a watch's origin from a rock's. Your pre-supposition was that there was a designer. How does that prove anything?

You argument for disproving it actually proves it imo. I have no trouble imagining the alternative, which is that the world simply doesn't exist.

Those are the only 2 possibilities? That the earth was designed or doesn't exist? There are no other possibilities, such as natural ones? Don't you see the gigantic flaw here?

2) I may not have heard the term god of gaps because I don't focus my life on atheist verbiage but I think I addressed this argument already. Religion/spirituality has not disappeared with advancement of science and logically the two do not address the same set of questions.

Sorry, religion and spirituality (whatever the heck that is) has absolutely decreased with the advancement of science. People no longer believe thunder is caused by Odin's bolts, or that god created earth at the center of the universe. This is really an unsupportable claim you are making.

3) I'm not sure what your obsession with hippos are, but if you are seriously saying that hippos can rival human evil, then you are not to be taken seriously because you are willing to be intellectually dishonest to support your favored conclusion.

I'm admittedly kind of having fun with the hippos thing, but if you prefer you can consider the parasites that bore themselves into people's eyes and eat them, which, according to you, was designed by your god. Now that's some seriously evil stuff right there.

https://www.cnet.com/science/meet-the-parasite-that-can-burrow-its-way-into-the-human-eye/

If theism explains the world better, that fact itself affects the likelihood of theism being true. That is how we form conclusions in any other area of our lives. We look at the facts, and go with the hypothesis that explains those facts the best.

As explained before, and ignored by you, atheism does not attempt to explain anything. As asked before, and ignored by you, Does it matter to you if it is true or not, or just that it "explains it better"?

1) In my view, when I see the world and how it works, how complex it is, how beautiful and consistent mathematics is, how beautiful music is etc., it is more rationale for me to believe they did not all happen by chance. You clearly disagree and we are allowed to do that. I get what you are saying, sort of, that I've only known the order and beauty of this world so what do I have to compare it to, and i'm saying I can imagine a disorderly chaotic world. You don't have to believe me but you also don't have a right to tell me what I can or cannot imagine. I can imagine because there is chaos in this world. Not necessarily in the natural world, but within the human world, since each time we deviate from God's will, we create chaos.

2) You don't consider yourself religious but here you are debating religion with me and others on the weekends...so I would say religions (or questions of religions) are and will always be with us. You also haven't addressed my arguments in any substance. How can science answers the why questions or deep existential questions? Or do you think people will just stop asking those questions? If so, how sad for humanity.

3) I used to think Christianity has a "problem of evil" as you allude to, but more and more, I think the atheists have a much bigger problem of evil, as I've stated before. I do think a lot of people, including Christians, struggle with the Christian explanation of evil but atheism doesn't even have anything to say.

4) I don't get what you are not getting. The fact something makes sense is indicative of its true. So yes, it does matter to me if something is true or not, and as I mentioned, you asked and I answered what my evidence is of its truth. And I absolutely think atheism attempts to explain things. Atheists think their worldview is "neutral" somehow but it's not. You have your own set of beliefs and explanations for those fundamental/existential questions that we all ask. For example, what to you is the meaning of life? Does death conquer love (meaning, if the whole world ended tomorrow, would your love for your child, spouse, family, best friend, have any meaning beyond death)? I would hope you have an answer, and that is your atheism explaining something because you answer depends on your religious worldview (and atheism is a religion for this purpose).

I sense that somehow what i find to be evidence seems really triggering to you (and some others, I can't tell who is posting what). I'm not sure why. You asked and I answered. I'm not sure further back and forth will do much because as the visual puzzle i alluded to, you either see it or you don't, and once you do, you can't unsee it. In my experience, a lot of people of faith will have that moment of conversion, where they see the other picture, and it captures their heart and soul because it is so much more beautiful than the other image. But they won't always see that beautiful imagine vividly every day and they go through dry periods filled with emptiness and skepticism. But once they have seen that second image, they cannot forget it, and they will do anything in their power to try to regain that image or to live as if that image were there. Personally, that is how I see faith. It's not blind adherence to a belief without evidence. It is seeing enough evidence to fall in love with God, and then realizing that life is only worth living with God because you can't go back to the bland image.

Someone brought up Mother Theresa here and yes she went through long periods of feeling lost and distant from God (dark night of the soul as they call it). But that is quite common among Christians and it is really a bit besides the point. She had a strong personal encounter with God at some point in her life and made a decision to reorient her entire life following that encounter, and the proceeded to live that life with faith in that encounter and the vision it represented. That is exactly what God calls us to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Dude, you don’t believe in God. You talk about your non-belief constantly,

Uhh, you don't know me, and no I don't, only at times, such as when discussing religion in a religion forum. I know when you would like me to discuss it, which is never, illustrated perfectly by your script of how you'd like it to go.

and no one tells you you have to believe in God, no one tells you your disbelief in God is wrong.

This is completely untrue, here and in the world. But I don't care if people tell me that their belief is right and mine is wrong, and I am completely willing to have a discussion about it, and will change my mind if sufficient evidence is presented. Will you?

No one tries to convince you to believe in God. People here respect your disbelief in God.

Want me to copy and paste all the times believers say presuppositional BS like "if you won't accept the truth that is your problem" and "you'll learn in the afterlife" and stuff like that? Hell just drive down the highway near my house, every fifth billboard is telling me I am wrong to not believe. So I think it will be hard for you to say anything more wrong or easily disproved than "No one tries to convince you to believe in God. People here respect your disbelief in God".

You are the one demanding many believers show evidence of their beliefs. As a Christian, I am happy to share my faith with anyone who asks. But if you don’t ask, I am not going to try to show you evidence and try to convince you my beliefs are right.

But we are asking here, this is a fricking forum designed to discuss religion, not the checkout line at the supermarket. There's no other reason to be here other than to discuss this. This is exactly, and by (human!) design, the appropriate place to have that discussion.

I am not reading all that.

I'd say because non-religious poster has backed you into a corner where you have no cogent response, in your own opinion. Why? because previously you haven't hesitated to respond.

DP. No, because Christian pp made her point, which is that she’s secure on her faith and isn’t demanding atheist pp convert. Atheist pl just won’t let go so she changes the question a bit. Nobody has time for that.

I can't tell, but I bet this is not a "DP" but is actually Christian pp trying to bolster their case. Whatever -- go out and enjoy your evening. Maybe next time you come to the religion forum you won't attempt to convert a non-believer and thus avoid getting backed into a corner.

Lol, ask the moderator. And you wonder why your paranoid behavior and lame gotcha games don’t attract more people to engage with you. No sane adult would go down a rabbit hole with you.

The previous post was not from the atheist that the Christian was sparring with, but was actually a DP. Ask the moderator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

1) I don't see what watchman argument proves or disapproves. Everything I know is designed because a designer designed it.

See? Your position is everything is designed, therefore you can't tell a watch's origin from a rock's. Your pre-supposition was that there was a designer. How does that prove anything?

You argument for disproving it actually proves it imo. I have no trouble imagining the alternative, which is that the world simply doesn't exist.

Those are the only 2 possibilities? That the earth was designed or doesn't exist? There are no other possibilities, such as natural ones? Don't you see the gigantic flaw here?

2) I may not have heard the term god of gaps because I don't focus my life on atheist verbiage but I think I addressed this argument already. Religion/spirituality has not disappeared with advancement of science and logically the two do not address the same set of questions.

Sorry, religion and spirituality (whatever the heck that is) has absolutely decreased with the advancement of science. People no longer believe thunder is caused by Odin's bolts, or that god created earth at the center of the universe. This is really an unsupportable claim you are making.

3) I'm not sure what your obsession with hippos are, but if you are seriously saying that hippos can rival human evil, then you are not to be taken seriously because you are willing to be intellectually dishonest to support your favored conclusion.

I'm admittedly kind of having fun with the hippos thing, but if you prefer you can consider the parasites that bore themselves into people's eyes and eat them, which, according to you, was designed by your god. Now that's some seriously evil stuff right there.

https://www.cnet.com/science/meet-the-parasite-that-can-burrow-its-way-into-the-human-eye/

If theism explains the world better, that fact itself affects the likelihood of theism being true. That is how we form conclusions in any other area of our lives. We look at the facts, and go with the hypothesis that explains those facts the best.

As explained before, and ignored by you, atheism does not attempt to explain anything. As asked before, and ignored by you, Does it matter to you if it is true or not, or just that it "explains it better"?

1) In my view, when I see the world and how it works, how complex it is, how beautiful and consistent mathematics is, how beautiful music is etc., it is more rationale for me to believe they did not all happen by chance. You clearly disagree and we are allowed to do that. I get what you are saying, sort of, that I've only known the order and beauty of this world so what do I have to compare it to, and i'm saying I can imagine a disorderly chaotic world. You don't have to believe me but you also don't have a right to tell me what I can or cannot imagine. I can imagine because there is chaos in this world. Not necessarily in the natural world, but within the human world, since each time we deviate from God's will, we create chaos.

2) You don't consider yourself religious but here you are debating religion with me and others on the weekends...so I would say religions (or questions of religions) are and will always be with us. You also haven't addressed my arguments in any substance. How can science answers the why questions or deep existential questions? Or do you think people will just stop asking those questions? If so, how sad for humanity.

3) I used to think Christianity has a "problem of evil" as you allude to, but more and more, I think the atheists have a much bigger problem of evil, as I've stated before. I do think a lot of people, including Christians, struggle with the Christian explanation of evil but atheism doesn't even have anything to say.

4) I don't get what you are not getting. The fact something makes sense is indicative of its true. So yes, it does matter to me if something is true or not, and as I mentioned, you asked and I answered what my evidence is of its truth. And I absolutely think atheism attempts to explain things. Atheists think their worldview is "neutral" somehow but it's not. You have your own set of beliefs and explanations for those fundamental/existential questions that we all ask. For example, what to you is the meaning of life? Does death conquer love (meaning, if the whole world ended tomorrow, would your love for your child, spouse, family, best friend, have any meaning beyond death)? I would hope you have an answer, and that is your atheism explaining something because you answer depends on your religious worldview (and atheism is a religion for this purpose).

I sense that somehow what i find to be evidence seems really triggering to you (and some others, I can't tell who is posting what). I'm not sure why. You asked and I answered. I'm not sure further back and forth will do much because as the visual puzzle i alluded to, you either see it or you don't, and once you do, you can't unsee it. In my experience, a lot of people of faith will have that moment of conversion, where they see the other picture, and it captures their heart and soul because it is so much more beautiful than the other image. But they won't always see that beautiful imagine vividly every day and they go through dry periods filled with emptiness and skepticism. But once they have seen that second image, they cannot forget it, and they will do anything in their power to try to regain that image or to live as if that image were there. Personally, that is how I see faith. It's not blind adherence to a belief without evidence. It is seeing enough evidence to fall in love with God, and then realizing that life is only worth living with God because you can't go back to the bland image.

Someone brought up Mother Theresa here and yes she went through long periods of feeling lost and distant from God (dark night of the soul as they call it). But that is quite common among Christians and it is really a bit besides the point. She had a strong personal encounter with God at some point in her life and made a decision to reorient her entire life following that encounter, and the proceeded to live that life with faith in that encounter and the vision it represented. That is exactly what God calls us to do.

TL,DR but I see Christina pp finally found theirr voice. Odd how they couldn't bother responding directly to atheist pp, but have no problem pontificating about their faith.

[Anonymous]

Editing to try and avoid long complaints/excuses. If I skipped anything in particular please redirect and I will reply.

1) In my view, when I see the world and how it works, how complex it is, how beautiful and consistent mathematics is, how beautiful music is etc., it is more rationale for me to believe they did not all happen by chance.

Who said it happened by chance? I never did. Happy to have a cosmological discussion but not in this post which is already long. Let me know in a clean post.

You clearly disagree and we are allowed to do that. I get what you are saying, sort of, that I've only known the order and beauty of this world so what do I have to compare it to, and i'm saying I can imagine a disorderly chaotic world.

The universe is unbelievably chaotic. Stephen Hawking said "If the universe is fine tuned for anything, it is black holes". But we only have one universe to examine.

2) You don't consider yourself religious but here you are debating religion with me and others on the weekends...so I would say religions (or questions of religions) are and will always be with us. You also haven't addressed my arguments in any substance. How can science answers the why questions or deep existential questions? Or do you think people will just stop asking those questions? If so, how sad for humanity.

No, I don't think we'll ever stop asking questions. I do hope that we'll stop making up answers without evidence though.

3) I used to think Christianity has a "problem of evil" as you allude to, but more and more, I think the atheists have a much bigger problem of evil, as I've stated before. I do think a lot of people, including Christians, struggle with the Christian explanation of evil but atheism doesn't even have anything to say.

No, since Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. It offers no other explanations, and does not attempt to. It has no problem of evil, as most religions do, because it makes no claims about good or evil.

4) I don't get what you are not getting. The fact something makes sense is indicative of its true.

Like butter healing a burn? No, sorry, evidence is indicative something is true. If something "making sense" indicated truth, no one would ever be wrong about anything!

So yes, it does matter to me if something is true or not, and as I mentioned, you asked and I answered what my evidence is of its truth.

Sorry but I still haven't seen you present any evidence.

And I absolutely think atheism attempts to explain things.

I have explained to you it does not. Again, it is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. End period.

Atheists think their worldview is "neutral" somehow but it's not. You have your own set of beliefs and explanations for those fundamental/existential questions that we all ask.

Unless you count "I don't know", then no, not at all, even a little. Completely wrong. This is the point you are most wrong on in this exchange.

For example, what to you is the meaning of life? Does death conquer love (meaning, if the whole world ended tomorrow, would your love for your child, spouse, family, best friend, have any meaning beyond death)? I would hope you have an answer, and that is your atheism explaining something because you answer depends on your religious worldview (and atheism is a religion for this purpose).

I ascribe meaning to my life. As for death, I don't know what happens after it, and neither do you. Your entire premise presupposes that there must be a god, and is a fallacy.

And atheism is NOT A RELIGION for any purpose. Like not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

Someone brought up Mother Theresa here and yes she went through long periods of feeling lost and distant from God (dark night of the soul as they call it). But that is quite common among Christians and it is really a bit besides the point. She had a strong personal encounter with God at some point in her life and made a decision to reorient her entire life following that encounter, and the proceeded to live that life with faith in that encounter and the vision it represented. That is exactly what God calls us to do.

How does he call you, and why does he not call everyone? And why do 3,000+ different gods "call" people all over the world? If god is all knowing, he certainly has my mobile number. Tell him to give us atheists a shout. We'll answer, and change our opinion once he shows us evidence he exists. Will you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Editing to try and avoid long complaints/excuses. If I skipped anything in particular please redirect and I will reply.

1) In my view, when I see the world and how it works, how complex it is, how beautiful and consistent mathematics is, how beautiful music is etc., it is more rationale for me to believe they did not all happen by chance.

Who said it happened by chance? I never did. Happy to have a cosmological discussion but not in this post which is already long. Let me know in a clean post.

You clearly disagree and we are allowed to do that. I get what you are saying, sort of, that I've only known the order and beauty of this world so what do I have to compare it to, and i'm saying I can imagine a disorderly chaotic world.

The universe is unbelievably chaotic. Stephen Hawking said "If the universe is fine tuned for anything, it is black holes". But we only have one universe to examine.

2) You don't consider yourself religious but here you are debating religion with me and others on the weekends...so I would say religions (or questions of religions) are and will always be with us. You also haven't addressed my arguments in any substance. How can science answers the why questions or deep existential questions? Or do you think people will just stop asking those questions? If so, how sad for humanity.

No, I don't think we'll ever stop asking questions. I do hope that we'll stop making up answers without evidence though.

3) I used to think Christianity has a "problem of evil" as you allude to, but more and more, I think the atheists have a much bigger problem of evil, as I've stated before. I do think a lot of people, including Christians, struggle with the Christian explanation of evil but atheism doesn't even have anything to say.

No, since Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. It offers no other explanations, and does not attempt to. It has no problem of evil, as most religions do, because it makes no claims about good or evil.

4) I don't get what you are not getting. The fact something makes sense is indicative of its true.

Like butter healing a burn? No, sorry, evidence is indicative something is true. If something "making sense" indicated truth, no one would ever be wrong about anything!

So yes, it does matter to me if something is true or not, and as I mentioned, you asked and I answered what my evidence is of its truth.

Sorry but I still haven't seen you present any evidence.

And I absolutely think atheism attempts to explain things.

I have explained to you it does not. Again, it is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. End period.

Atheists think their worldview is "neutral" somehow but it's not. You have your own set of beliefs and explanations for those fundamental/existential questions that we all ask.

Unless you count "I don't know", then no, not at all, even a little. Completely wrong. This is the point you are most wrong on in this exchange.

For example, what to you is the meaning of life? Does death conquer love (meaning, if the whole world ended tomorrow, would your love for your child, spouse, family, best friend, have any meaning beyond death)? I would hope you have an answer, and that is your atheism explaining something because you answer depends on your religious worldview (and atheism is a religion for this purpose).

I ascribe meaning to my life. As for death, I don't know what happens after it, and neither do you. Your entire premise presupposes that there must be a god, and is a fallacy.

And atheism is NOT A RELIGION for any purpose. Like not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

Someone brought up Mother Theresa here and yes she went through long periods of feeling lost and distant from God (dark night of the soul as they call it). But that is quite common among Christians and it is really a bit besides the point. She had a strong personal encounter with God at some point in her life and made a decision to reorient her entire life following that encounter, and the proceeded to live that life with faith in that encounter and the vision it represented. That is exactly what God calls us to do.

How does he call you, and why does he not call everyone? And why do 3,000+ different gods "call" people all over the world? If god is all knowing, he certainly has my mobile number. Tell him to give us atheists a shout. We'll answer, and change our opinion once he shows us evidence he exists. Will you?

because of how I've set my phone, it doesn't ring from #s not already in my phone book. However, God could leave a message, that I'd see, but wouldn't call back because I'd assume it was a crank call. If Mother Teresa had been born in the cell phone age, she may have had a similar reaction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Editing to try and avoid long complaints/excuses. If I skipped anything in particular please redirect and I will reply.

1) In my view, when I see the world and how it works, how complex it is, how beautiful and consistent mathematics is, how beautiful music is etc., it is more rationale for me to believe they did not all happen by chance.

Who said it happened by chance? I never did. Happy to have a cosmological discussion but not in this post which is already long. Let me know in a clean post.

You clearly disagree and we are allowed to do that. I get what you are saying, sort of, that I've only known the order and beauty of this world so what do I have to compare it to, and i'm saying I can imagine a disorderly chaotic world.

The universe is unbelievably chaotic. Stephen Hawking said "If the universe is fine tuned for anything, it is black holes". But we only have one universe to examine.

2) You don't consider yourself religious but here you are debating religion with me and others on the weekends...so I would say religions (or questions of religions) are and will always be with us. You also haven't addressed my arguments in any substance. How can science answers the why questions or deep existential questions? Or do you think people will just stop asking those questions? If so, how sad for humanity.

No, I don't think we'll ever stop asking questions. I do hope that we'll stop making up answers without evidence though.

3) I used to think Christianity has a "problem of evil" as you allude to, but more and more, I think the atheists have a much bigger problem of evil, as I've stated before. I do think a lot of people, including Christians, struggle with the Christian explanation of evil but atheism doesn't even have anything to say.

No, since Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. It offers no other explanations, and does not attempt to. It has no problem of evil, as most religions do, because it makes no claims about good or evil.

4) I don't get what you are not getting. The fact something makes sense is indicative of its true.

Like butter healing a burn? No, sorry, evidence is indicative something is true. If something "making sense" indicated truth, no one would ever be wrong about anything!

So yes, it does matter to me if something is true or not, and as I mentioned, you asked and I answered what my evidence is of its truth.

Sorry but I still haven't seen you present any evidence.

And I absolutely think atheism attempts to explain things.

I have explained to you it does not. Again, it is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. End period.

Atheists think their worldview is "neutral" somehow but it's not. You have your own set of beliefs and explanations for those fundamental/existential questions that we all ask.

Unless you count "I don't know", then no, not at all, even a little. Completely wrong. This is the point you are most wrong on in this exchange.

For example, what to you is the meaning of life? Does death conquer love (meaning, if the whole world ended tomorrow, would your love for your child, spouse, family, best friend, have any meaning beyond death)? I would hope you have an answer, and that is your atheism explaining something because you answer depends on your religious worldview (and atheism is a religion for this purpose).

I ascribe meaning to my life. As for death, I don't know what happens after it, and neither do you. Your entire premise presupposes that there must be a god, and is a fallacy.

And atheism is NOT A RELIGION for any purpose. Like not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

Someone brought up Mother Theresa here and yes she went through long periods of feeling lost and distant from God (dark night of the soul as they call it). But that is quite common among Christians and it is really a bit besides the point. She had a strong personal encounter with God at some point in her life and made a decision to reorient her entire life following that encounter, and the proceeded to live that life with faith in that encounter and the vision it represented. That is exactly what God calls us to do.

How does he call you, and why does he not call everyone? And why do 3,000+ different gods "call" people all over the world? If god is all knowing, he certainly has my mobile number. Tell him to give us atheists a shout. We'll answer, and change our opinion once he shows us evidence he exists. Will you?

because of how I've set my phone, it doesn't ring from #s not already in my phone book. However, God could leave a message, that I'd see, but wouldn't call back because I'd assume it was a crank call. If Mother Teresa had been born in the cell phone age, she may have had a similar reaction.

I think god could override that setting and get the call through.

[Anonymous]

Hoping believer PP returns and responds? Would hate to see this substantive thread get buried.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Editing to try and avoid long complaints/excuses. If I skipped anything in particular please redirect and I will reply.

1) In my view, when I see the world and how it works, how complex it is, how beautiful and consistent mathematics is, how beautiful music is etc., it is more rationale for me to believe they did not all happen by chance.

Who said it happened by chance? I never did. Happy to have a cosmological discussion but not in this post which is already long. Let me know in a clean post.

You clearly disagree and we are allowed to do that. I get what you are saying, sort of, that I've only known the order and beauty of this world so what do I have to compare it to, and i'm saying I can imagine a disorderly chaotic world.

The universe is unbelievably chaotic. Stephen Hawking said "If the universe is fine tuned for anything, it is black holes". But we only have one universe to examine.

2) You don't consider yourself religious but here you are debating religion with me and others on the weekends...so I would say religions (or questions of religions) are and will always be with us. You also haven't addressed my arguments in any substance. How can science answers the why questions or deep existential questions? Or do you think people will just stop asking those questions? If so, how sad for humanity.

No, I don't think we'll ever stop asking questions. I do hope that we'll stop making up answers without evidence though.

3) I used to think Christianity has a "problem of evil" as you allude to, but more and more, I think the atheists have a much bigger problem of evil, as I've stated before. I do think a lot of people, including Christians, struggle with the Christian explanation of evil but atheism doesn't even have anything to say.

No, since Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. It offers no other explanations, and does not attempt to. It has no problem of evil, as most religions do, because it makes no claims about good or evil.

4) I don't get what you are not getting. The fact something makes sense is indicative of its true.

Like butter healing a burn? No, sorry, evidence is indicative something is true. If something "making sense" indicated truth, no one would ever be wrong about anything!

So yes, it does matter to me if something is true or not, and as I mentioned, you asked and I answered what my evidence is of its truth.

Sorry but I still haven't seen you present any evidence.

And I absolutely think atheism attempts to explain things.

I have explained to you it does not. Again, it is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. End period.

Atheists think their worldview is "neutral" somehow but it's not. You have your own set of beliefs and explanations for those fundamental/existential questions that we all ask.

Unless you count "I don't know", then no, not at all, even a little. Completely wrong. This is the point you are most wrong on in this exchange.

For example, what to you is the meaning of life? Does death conquer love (meaning, if the whole world ended tomorrow, would your love for your child, spouse, family, best friend, have any meaning beyond death)? I would hope you have an answer, and that is your atheism explaining something because you answer depends on your religious worldview (and atheism is a religion for this purpose).

I ascribe meaning to my life. As for death, I don't know what happens after it, and neither do you. Your entire premise presupposes that there must be a god, and is a fallacy.

And atheism is NOT A RELIGION for any purpose. Like not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

Someone brought up Mother Theresa here and yes she went through long periods of feeling lost and distant from God (dark night of the soul as they call it). But that is quite common among Christians and it is really a bit besides the point. She had a strong personal encounter with God at some point in her life and made a decision to reorient her entire life following that encounter, and the proceeded to live that life with faith in that encounter and the vision it represented. That is exactly what God calls us to do.

How does he call you, and why does he not call everyone? And why do 3,000+ different gods "call" people all over the world? If god is all knowing, he certainly has my mobile number. Tell him to give us atheists a shout. We'll answer, and change our opinion once he shows us evidence he exists. Will you?

Just a few thoughts. Atheism, if defined as not believing in God, is absolutely a belief system. The fact that YOU ascribe meaning to your own life is in itself a belief because you are assuming there is not OBJECTIVE meaning to life, that each person defines their own existence and derives their own meaning. Relativism is as much a belief as objectivism. If you define your atheism as not holding any views on God, fine, but it honestly doesn't sound that way because you seem to take great offense at my explaining my Christian worldview. If your belief has no place for my Christianity (in terms of tolerance), then it is not a neutral belief.

Why should I give Stephen Hawking any consideration? Sure, the universe may seem chaotic because of our lack of absolute knowledge, but the very fact that scientific disciplines exist presupposes that the world is knowable and intelligible.

Back on the atheism point since that is where you talk about most, if your worldview/atheism satisfies you, then great. The people who "find" God tend to be those who feel unsatisfied with the atheist view, and so they search deeper. If you are ok leaving those fundamental questions we all ask unanswered, then you don't have the motivation to keep digging, and sheer intellectual discussion will never get anyone there without that hunger (imo). Personally, I am not ok living without answers to questions like will death conquer everything I do in this life, why evil exists, what is the purpose of suffering. My own hunger came during the happiest moments of my life when everything was going well and my future looked unstoppable. But yet I needed more. I think at the same moment when I saw worldly success within my grasp, I saw how depressing it all was if that was all there was to life. And I go back to my original argument that I see my own desire for God to be one of the strongest objective evidence for His existence.

For me, believing in Christianity means that everything I do in this life has a purpose, that my heart can rejoice with the beauty I see and feel in this world without the sadness that comes with the worry that it will fade or die (rather, it is just a taste of what's to come). In fact, maybe this actually relates to the original OP's question, which I admitted did not read so forgive me if I butcher it. Being a Christian doesn't mean you will always be happy, as I mentioned earlier, but I find it does bring a deeper sense of purpose to the mundane hardships of daily life. It's like how people describe parenthood, how parents are less happy but more satisfied. Every day might be hard or harder as a Christian, but the sense of purpose more than makes up for it.

I'll preempt your next objection by admitting that you are right, none of us know with 100% certainty what awaits us after death, and to you, I might just be deluding myself and need a crutch and Marx's religion being opium of the masses and such. I know all these arguments and my response is so what. If I believe in God and I'm wrong, I lose nothing. If there is no God, my life is worthless and meaningless anyways. If I don't believe in God and I'm wrong, that is a much more serious question with eternal consequences, in addition to missing out on more purposeful living in this life. So I don't worry much about whether I'm wrong, that is what I mean by life without God isn't worth living. I cannot go back to the gray, bland picture that is atheism.

As to why God seemingly calls some but not others, I don't know. I personally believe God calls all of us but each of us has our own blocks, be it physical (like in some countries you could get prosecuted becoming Christian) or emotional (some trauma with Christians in the past, etc.), or mental or intellectual. Of course, the biggest block is usually hubris/ego, which is why pride is the sin of all sins. I don't believe that any evidence would convince you of God's existence. Hard core atheists claim they just want evidence but what they are really asking for is for God to perform for them ("perform this miracle and I'll believe you" "do this on my terms when I want it and I'll believe"). That is pride right there, having the audacity to think your Creator needs to turn into your personal genie to prove himself to you.

If you actually want to explore, I would suggest to just keep focusing on mankind (or womankind). As you read the news, history, literature, science, when you do introspection or meditate, focus on how different we are. I truly believe the best evidence for God lies in ourselves, because we are the most direct link to God in this world, having been made in his image and with the capacity and desire to have a personal relationship with him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Editing to try and avoid long complaints/excuses. If I skipped anything in particular please redirect and I will reply.

1) In my view, when I see the world and how it works, how complex it is, how beautiful and consistent mathematics is, how beautiful music is etc., it is more rationale for me to believe they did not all happen by chance.

Who said it happened by chance? I never did. Happy to have a cosmological discussion but not in this post which is already long. Let me know in a clean post.

You clearly disagree and we are allowed to do that. I get what you are saying, sort of, that I've only known the order and beauty of this world so what do I have to compare it to, and i'm saying I can imagine a disorderly chaotic world.

The universe is unbelievably chaotic. Stephen Hawking said "If the universe is fine tuned for anything, it is black holes". But we only have one universe to examine.

2) You don't consider yourself religious but here you are debating religion with me and others on the weekends...so I would say religions (or questions of religions) are and will always be with us. You also haven't addressed my arguments in any substance. How can science answers the why questions or deep existential questions? Or do you think people will just stop asking those questions? If so, how sad for humanity.

No, I don't think we'll ever stop asking questions. I do hope that we'll stop making up answers without evidence though.

3) I used to think Christianity has a "problem of evil" as you allude to, but more and more, I think the atheists have a much bigger problem of evil, as I've stated before. I do think a lot of people, including Christians, struggle with the Christian explanation of evil but atheism doesn't even have anything to say.

No, since Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. It offers no other explanations, and does not attempt to. It has no problem of evil, as most religions do, because it makes no claims about good or evil.

4) I don't get what you are not getting. The fact something makes sense is indicative of its true.

Like butter healing a burn? No, sorry, evidence is indicative something is true. If something "making sense" indicated truth, no one would ever be wrong about anything!

So yes, it does matter to me if something is true or not, and as I mentioned, you asked and I answered what my evidence is of its truth.

Sorry but I still haven't seen you present any evidence.

And I absolutely think atheism attempts to explain things.

I have explained to you it does not. Again, it is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. End period.

Atheists think their worldview is "neutral" somehow but it's not. You have your own set of beliefs and explanations for those fundamental/existential questions that we all ask.

Unless you count "I don't know", then no, not at all, even a little. Completely wrong. This is the point you are most wrong on in this exchange.

For example, what to you is the meaning of life? Does death conquer love (meaning, if the whole world ended tomorrow, would your love for your child, spouse, family, best friend, have any meaning beyond death)? I would hope you have an answer, and that is your atheism explaining something because you answer depends on your religious worldview (and atheism is a religion for this purpose).

I ascribe meaning to my life. As for death, I don't know what happens after it, and neither do you. Your entire premise presupposes that there must be a god, and is a fallacy.

And atheism is NOT A RELIGION for any purpose. Like not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

Someone brought up Mother Theresa here and yes she went through long periods of feeling lost and distant from God (dark night of the soul as they call it). But that is quite common among Christians and it is really a bit besides the point. She had a strong personal encounter with God at some point in her life and made a decision to reorient her entire life following that encounter, and the proceeded to live that life with faith in that encounter and the vision it represented. That is exactly what God calls us to do.

How does he call you, and why does he not call everyone? And why do 3,000+ different gods "call" people all over the world? If god is all knowing, he certainly has my mobile number. Tell him to give us atheists a shout. We'll answer, and change our opinion once he shows us evidence he exists. Will you?

because of how I've set my phone, it doesn't ring from #s not already in my phone book. However, God could leave a message, that I'd see, but wouldn't call back because I'd assume it was a crank call. If Mother Teresa had been born in the cell phone age, she may have had a similar reaction.

I think god could override that setting and get the call through.

God is calling to everyone, but a lot of people keep ignoring his voice, keep ignoring the evidence of his existence.

[Anonymous]

Just a few thoughts. Atheism, if defined as not believing in God, is absolutely a belief system.

So say you, but not the actual atheists. So what would you call simply a lack of belief? Call if whatever you want, that's what I am and what I think most atheists consider themselves. I know your arguments work better if you consider it a system like yours, but it is not that. It's just NOT.

The fact that YOU ascribe meaning to your own life is in itself a belief because you are assuming there is not OBJECTIVE meaning to life, that each person defines their own existence and derives their own meaning.

Another pre-suppositional claim you'll need to show evidence for.

If you define your atheism as not holding any views on God, fine, but it honestly doesn't sound that way because you seem to take great offense at my explaining my Christian worldview. If your belief has no place for my Christianity (in terms of tolerance), then it is not a neutral belief.

This is another strawman. I take no offense at your Christian beliefs, and think you should be able to believe whatever you want.

Why should I give Stephen Hawking any consideration? Sure, the universe may seem chaotic because of our lack of absolute knowledge, but the very fact that scientific disciplines exist presupposes that the world is knowable and intelligible.

And yet we don't understand most of it, and it is bizzare and as hard to understand as anything, and a nearly infinite percentage of it would kill life in just a second... sorry those who study physics marvel at it and its chaos.

Back on the atheism point since that is where you talk about most, if your worldview/atheism satisfies you, then great. The people who "find" God tend to be those who feel unsatisfied with the atheist view, and so they search deeper. If you are ok leaving those fundamental questions we all ask unanswered, then you don't have the motivation to keep digging, and sheer intellectual discussion will never get anyone there without that hunger (imo).

It's really funny to me how you accuse me of not having motivation to explore these questions and then with the same breath criticize me for simply having these discussions in this forum. Oh the irony. And I have said many times, if shown evidence I will change my position. Will you? You are the one whose mind is made up.

I'll preempt your next objection by admitting that you are right, none of us know with 100% certainty what awaits us after death, and to you, I might just be deluding myself and need a crutch and Marx's religion being opium of the masses and such. I know all these arguments and my response is so what. If I believe in God and I'm wrong, I lose nothing. If there is no God, my life is worthless and meaningless anyways. If I don't believe in God and I'm wrong, that is a much more serious question with eternal consequences, in addition to missing out on more purposeful living in this life. So I don't worry much about whether I'm wrong, that is what I mean by life without God isn't worth living. I cannot go back to the gray, bland picture that is atheism.

This is"Pascal's Wager" (another thing you might not have heard of) and has been shown to be a fallacy (on the chance you've not heard of that either). What if you're wrong about Christianity? What if you die and meet the Norse gods, or one you've never heard of, who wants different things from you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

As to why God seemingly calls some but not others, I don't know.

But I thought you had all the answers? Glad to see you admit that you don't know, which is what you should say more often. I sure don't know lots of things.

I personally believe God calls all of us but each of us has our own blocks, be it physical (like in some countries you could get prosecuted becoming Christian) or emotional (some trauma with Christians in the past, etc.), or mental or intellectual. Of course, the biggest block is usually hubris/ego, which is why pride is the sin of all sins.

Ahhhh.... so now you are saying you DO know, and it is because I refuse to not sin. Maybe I am offended after all! Funny how Christianity decided that the sin of trusting your observations (as we do with absolutely everything else that keeps us alive) is also the "sin of all sins" (and not murder, slavery, rape, etc.).

I don't believe that any evidence would convince you of God's existence.

So you don't believe me when I tell you it will? That makes you a dishonest interlocutor.

Hard core atheists claim they just want evidence but what they are really asking for is for God to perform for them ("perform this miracle and I'll believe you" "do this on my terms when I want it and I'll believe"). That is pride right there, having the audacity to think your Creator needs to turn into your personal genie to prove himself to you.

This is a lie you just typed. Find me an atheist asking for a miracle, please. Just one.

[Anonymous]

“This is another strawman. I take no offense at your Christian beliefs, and think you should be able to believe whatever you want.”

Ok, so why do you keep asking Christians to show you evidence of God? We take no offense at your non-belief, and also believe you are free to not believe whatever you want.