What is the real reason MCPS uses Lottery for Middle School Magnet Program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

I agree with you that the process is not transparent enough, but I will note that MCPS can not take race into account for programs (that was an older lawsuit!). MCPS can use gender, income, and other things like having an IEP, receiving ESOL services, etc. MCPS uses FARMS as a proxy for race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

Agree, people seem to be intentionally obtuse despite the fact they've laid this out perfectly, but no matter what they say people are going to complain.

Read the letter that was sent to families about the process on September 30, 2021. It clearly states that FARMS (along with other student services such as ESOL, IEPS, etc.) will be used in the process to identify students. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CRmtqKsA1v55uADF05lpwlbFuLpRgC12puS-6Be8GVw/edit

I'll even cut and paste the pertinent language for you.

Multiple criteria will continue to be used to identify students for enriched services and include 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 data such as report card grades, reading level, external assessments Measures of Academic Progress-Reading (MAP-R) and Measures of Academic Progress-Math (MAP-M) and student services (students who receive services in ESOL- English for Speakers of Other Languages, FARMS- Free and Reduced Meals System, IEP- Individualized Education Plan or a 504 plan). The Cognitive Abilities Assessment (CogAT) will not be administered this year.
The universal review process will occur in December 2021 by identifying the students who demonstrate the potential to be successful in enriched services. These students will be placed into a lottery pool. All students in the lottery pool are guaranteed enriched instruction either in the regional magnet or local enriched courses. Students with missing data, such as students new to MCPS for the 2021-2022 school year, private/home schooled students may be considered for placement into the candidate pool by an expert review panel pending all required data is submitted. See below for more information. Once the lottery pool has been identified, a lottery will be conducted for placement into a regional magnet program.

Thank you for finding this Gem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

I agree with you that the process is not transparent enough, but I will note that MCPS can not take race into account for programs (that was an older lawsuit!). MCPS can use gender, income, and other things like having an IEP, receiving ESOL services, etc. MCPS uses FARMS as a proxy for race.

After reading so many threads, it looks like the best course for MCPS is to expand the program. No 2 kids are same and it is important for MCPS to identify the specific Gifts and Talents and help the kids achieve their maximum potential. What ever that may be. Be it academics, sports, arts, theater etc.
Lottery is not a solution to anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

You understand that it's illegal to consider race? I really can't grasp why you people need to make something this simple into some great conspiracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This region has astronomically more qualified kids than seats.

No. Take the top x number of students to fill the x number of seats. The lottery has been put in place to assist White mediocre students. They cannot compete against Asian students. They have used the excuse of Black and Hispanic students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

I agree with you that the process is not transparent enough, but I will note that MCPS can not take race into account for programs (that was an older lawsuit!). MCPS can use gender, income, and other things like having an IEP, receiving ESOL services, etc. MCPS uses FARMS as a proxy for race.

MCPS uses FARMS as a proxy for socioeconomic status or sometimes for poverty rate.

[Anonymous]

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

I think the lottery is a terrible strategy, but they've answered many of these questions in the past.

Yes, they consider report cards. For CES and Humanities, they need to see As in the previous year's report cards in ELA. For TPMS, they want As in Math.

The cut-off percentile for MAP is 85th percentile.

They do not consider race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

You understand that it's illegal to consider race? I really can't grasp why you people need to make something this simple into some great conspiracy.

As someone else said in the PP, they dress race up with FARM. Transparent process will avoid guess work from all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

You understand that it's illegal to consider race? I really can't grasp why you people need to make something this simple into some great conspiracy.

As someone else said in the PP, they dress race up with FARM. Transparent process will avoid guess work from all.

But the process they've laid out on their website is transparent. I'm sorry that you don't like it, but that's an entirely different matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

I think the lottery is a terrible strategy, but they've answered many of these questions in the past.

Yes, they consider report cards. For CES and Humanities, they need to see As in the previous year's report cards in ELA. For TPMS, they want As in Math.

The cut-off percentile for MAP is 85th percentile.

They do not consider race.

Right. We all got all that. So how does the FARMS status or IEP/504 factor in? Do those students get into the pool with different grades or MAP scores? If they don’t, how is that status being factored in with the lottery?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

I think the lottery is a terrible strategy, but they've answered many of these questions in the past.

Yes, they consider report cards. For CES and Humanities, they need to see As in the previous year's report cards in ELA. For TPMS, they want As in Math.

The cut-off percentile for MAP is 85th percentile.

They do not consider race.

Right. We all got all that. So how does the FARMS status or IEP/504 factor in? Do those students get into the pool with different grades or MAP scores? If they don’t, how is that status being factored in with the lottery?

They will scream “the process is transparent” but never actually answer these questions. So much for transparency.

[Anonymous]

For FARMS the scores are clearly lower. They have said as much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

I think the lottery is a terrible strategy, but they've answered many of these questions in the past.

Yes, they consider report cards. For CES and Humanities, they need to see As in the previous year's report cards in ELA. For TPMS, they want As in Math.

The cut-off percentile for MAP is 85th percentile.

They do not consider race.

Right. We all got all that. So how does the FARMS status or IEP/504 factor in? Do those students get into the pool with different grades or MAP scores? If they don’t, how is that status being factored in with the lottery?

They will scream “the process is transparent” but never actually answer these questions. So much for transparency.

There was a detailed post earlier that outlined the specifics, but I guess it's easier to cry it's not transparent than discuss facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

I think the lottery is a terrible strategy, but they've answered many of these questions in the past.

Yes, they consider report cards. For CES and Humanities, they need to see As in the previous year's report cards in ELA. For TPMS, they want As in Math.

The cut-off percentile for MAP is 85th percentile.

They do not consider race.

Right. We all got all that. So how does the FARMS status or IEP/504 factor in? Do those students get into the pool with different grades or MAP scores? If they don’t, how is that status being factored in with the lottery?

MAP scores are locally normed, so it is 85th percentile of students within each "tier" of schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?

I think the lottery is a terrible strategy, but they've answered many of these questions in the past.

Yes, they consider report cards. For CES and Humanities, they need to see As in the previous year's report cards in ELA. For TPMS, they want As in Math.

The cut-off percentile for MAP is 85th percentile.

They do not consider race.

Right. We all got all that. So how does the FARMS status or IEP/504 factor in? Do those students get into the pool with different grades or MAP scores? If they don’t, how is that status being factored in with the lottery?

They will scream “the process is transparent” but never actually answer these questions. So much for transparency.

There was a detailed post earlier that outlined the specifics, but I guess it's easier to cry it's not transparent than discuss facts.

Nope. There is not answers to these questions. Every time people raise these questions the answer is the same. There is a prior post that provides specifics (without providing it). The website is transparent (without linking it). It’s all a dodge and weave and it feels so motivated that I would not be surprised if MCPS pr people are in here posting this nonsense.

Where’s the info? Where’a the details? Never happen.