What is the real reason MCPS uses Lottery for Middle School Magnet Program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

No. They changed to universal testing because too many qualified, non-prepped students were left behind and many were not aware of the opportunity. Full stop. Plain and simple

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find the whole magnet thing racist and favoring rich people in general even with the lottery.

A top 100 school district in another state did away with then for “equity” reasons around 20 years ago.

They took that money and instead of focusing on the top 5 percent of students spent it in a new type of magnet school for the bottom 5 percent of students to provide remedial help, better teacher to student rations, provide autistic and help special needs kids and kids with emotional issues.

Why did well off straight A white and Asian kids with college educated parents need extra help.

It is like putting Tom Brady on a bad football team and deciding let’s only give Tom Brady extra help. No you spend resources on the players that need it not the already great players.

I see that only some people bring up race in this discussion. This is not about race or color of skin or economic status. This is about academic achievement. By the way, magnet program is not extra help. It is to provide enough challenges for G&T kids who has a consistent record of higher academic progress evidenced by the consistent test scores. I wonder why some twist and distract the topic of discussion here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find the whole magnet thing racist and favoring rich people in general even with the lottery.

A top 100 school district in another state did away with then for “equity” reasons around 20 years ago.

They took that money and instead of focusing on the top 5 percent of students spent it in a new type of magnet school for the bottom 5 percent of students to provide remedial help, better teacher to student rations, provide autistic and help special needs kids and kids with emotional issues.

Why did well off straight A white and Asian kids with college educated parents need extra help.

It is like putting Tom Brady on a bad football team and deciding let’s only give Tom Brady extra help. No you spend resources on the players that need it not the already great players.

This whole thread reminds me of the NYT podcast Nice White Parents. Privledged, wealthy people who think the public school owes them something special because they’re enrolling precious Larla in their local school system and who feed off exclusion at the expense of a vast majority of children. That there are so many people who are freaking out because a small number of kids who are very bright and capable and who will likely be successful in the magnet have been admitted despite not being 99th percentile is absurd - and shows how entitled so many parents on this forum are. No wonder MCPS is going to the crapper. Parents like these drain resources and divert attention from a majority of the children in the school.

Not really. This is about future generations and the kids who work and perform at 90th percentile and above beed bigger challenges to continue the progress. CES programs were originally intended for that purpose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If it is true that upwards of 50% of the accepted students were coming out of test prep schools then it is obvious that the students who were not enrolled in the test prep schools were disadvantaged.

You can't fault those families for being able to afford the enrichment, or at the test prep schools for being so good, but you can't in full knowledge of their effectiveness act like all of those testers didn't have an advantage going into the exam hall.

Apply your same philosophy in sports. Any one why did not touch a baseball bat in his entire life because he had to focus on academics is at a total disadvantage on getting selected into a baseball team. Others who worked hard on the field for years because their parents encouraged them has a clear advantage in sports over kids who did not focus on sports but on academics.

Can we fault the family that could not spend time with kids in the baseball field so that kids can get selected into baseball team?

Why not select the kids who was at a disadvantage in the team?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS was on track to really improve the magnet selection a couple of years ago, putting emphasis on selection methods which favored CoGAT and cohort over MAP and grades (ability over privilege) and doing away with inherent bias like teacher recommendations and parent- initiated applications. By bringing MAP and grades back as the prime selection methods, they have had to vastly widen the pool to overcome the strong privilege bias those metrics create. So they are now just scooping tons of kids into the magnet system without making any effort to consider the need.

Every single word of this. They were doing the right thing, and it was working. The decision to throw it in the trash before the first cohort even finished the program is inexplicable.

The about-face isn´t inexplicable. It´s based on 2 things: Covid + litigation. The cohorts were attacked in the litigation, and from the court record, MCPS admin seems to not have a clue on how to deal with that allegation.

Irony is the whole drama is to score points at the expense of future generations. Every kid is gifted in one way or other however the successful schools around the world identify the talent and encourge kids to achieve their maximum potential in those specific areas. They would not try to make everyone a scientist. Even if MCPS wins the case, the future looks bleak

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the biggest problem with the "home school cohort" was that MCPS could never explain how it chose who would be "kept" in the cohort and who would be sent to CES.

MCPS never really did anything for these "home school cohorts," so it was essentially just window dressing on an exclusion tool. As long as your school had over 20 magnet candidates then MCPS had a process to exclude many of them.

The problem is that it was a total black box.

MCPS to this day has not explained its process for deciding who would be excluded from being sent to CES.

Not after multiple requests for explanation. Not after being sued. Not after switching to a lottery.

You would think MCPS could explain their process of selecting the home school cohorts after they ditched the concept. Yet they refuse to.

Makes it sound like MCPS is hiding something. They should have explained their process by now if it was fair and just.

Absolutely agree. MCPS is not transparent at all. I believe that is because they are scared that parents will present better ideas and improve the program for all children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS was on track to really improve the magnet selection a couple of years ago, putting emphasis on selection methods which favored CoGAT and cohort over MAP and grades (ability over privilege) and doing away with inherent bias like teacher recommendations and parent- initiated applications. By bringing MAP and grades back as the prime selection methods, they have had to vastly widen the pool to overcome the strong privilege bias those metrics create. So they are now just scooping tons of kids into the magnet system without making any effort to consider the need.

Every single word of this. They were doing the right thing, and it was working. The decision to throw it in the trash before the first cohort even finished the program is inexplicable.

The about-face isn´t inexplicable. It´s based on 2 things: Covid + litigation. The cohorts were attacked in the litigation, and from the court record, MCPS admin seems to not have a clue on how to deal with that allegation.

Irony is the whole drama is to score points at the expense of future generations. Every kid is gifted in one way or other however the successful schools around the world identify the talent and encourge kids to achieve their maximum potential in those specific areas. They would not try to make everyone a scientist. Even if MCPS wins the case, the future looks bleak

On the contrary, the wealthy prep kids will be fine even without these special programs. However, this will be life changing for many less fortunate kids who are lucky enough to win a spot in a program which they'd never had a shot at before without $10k in prep classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

Agree, people seem to be intentionally obtuse despite the fact they've laid this out perfectly, but no matter what they say people are going to complain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the three PP's. The reality is that parents want a differentiated MS curriculum (and looking at MCPS math and reading scores, looks like the MS curriculum is not good). Why is all the energy around tinkering with a magnet program (for advanced learners)? Anybody have insights on that. Why not improve academic opportunities at the homeschool level?

Maybe trying to undermine magnet problems and show that they are working for equity is an MCPS smokescreen to hide the real problems. Look at the numbers here. Where does all the billions pf MCPS funding go for god's sake? If they are producing such results. Only 33% passed MCAP Math in spring 2019 and 15% now. Abysmal.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/education/bs-md-maryland-test-scores-20211208-wk5aen5r5bfx5eag2p57pamjcy-story.html

The first Maryland standardized tests given since the beginning of the pandemic show a dramatic drop in student achievement, mirroring a nationwide trend of academic loss, according to preliminary data released by the state education department Tuesday.

Just 15% of the state’s public school students passed math and 35% passed English, the greatest single-year declines on any state tests given in at least the past two decades in Maryland.

The standardized tests, known as the Maryland Comprehensive Assessment Program, are considered difficult to pass. More than half of the state’s public school students regularly fail the tests — given in math and English in grades three through eight and in some high school subjects — in years before the pandemic.

However, the pass rate for math fell by more than half from the 33% who passed in the spring of 2019, the last time the test was given. English scores were down by about 8 percentage points since testing before the pandemic.

My God.. what are they doing to the kids? If the pass percentages are what you stated, then its an abject failure of the school system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the three PP's. The reality is that parents want a differentiated MS curriculum (and looking at MCPS math and reading scores, looks like the MS curriculum is not good). Why is all the energy around tinkering with a magnet program (for advanced learners)? Anybody have insights on that. Why not improve academic opportunities at the homeschool level?

Maybe trying to undermine magnet problems and show that they are working for equity is an MCPS smokescreen to hide the real problems. Look at the numbers here. Where does all the billions pf MCPS funding go for god's sake? If they are producing such results. Only 33% passed MCAP Math in spring 2019 and 15% now. Abysmal.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/education/bs-md-maryland-test-scores-20211208-wk5aen5r5bfx5eag2p57pamjcy-story.html

The first Maryland standardized tests given since the beginning of the pandemic show a dramatic drop in student achievement, mirroring a nationwide trend of academic loss, according to preliminary data released by the state education department Tuesday.

Just 15% of the state’s public school students passed math and 35% passed English, the greatest single-year declines on any state tests given in at least the past two decades in Maryland.

The standardized tests, known as the Maryland Comprehensive Assessment Program, are considered difficult to pass. More than half of the state’s public school students regularly fail the tests — given in math and English in grades three through eight and in some high school subjects — in years before the pandemic.

However, the pass rate for math fell by more than half from the 33% who passed in the spring of 2019, the last time the test was given. English scores were down by about 8 percentage points since testing before the pandemic.

You do know that MCPS is not Maryland, right?
These numbers are for the state.
My God

Those were scary numbers if it were for MCPS considering the ROI

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

I do not know why does it matter if parents provide additional support that students need. Doesn't this happen in sports too? Do we disadvantage a group of people in sports becasue they got that extra help in coaching camps to get drafted into the team?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

Agree, people seem to be intentionally obtuse despite the fact they've laid this out perfectly, but no matter what they say people are going to complain.

Read the letter that was sent to families about the process on September 30, 2021. It clearly states that FARMS (along with other student services such as ESOL, IEPS, etc.) will be used in the process to identify students. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CRmtqKsA1v55uADF05lpwlbFuLpRgC12puS-6Be8GVw/edit

I'll even cut and paste the pertinent language for you.

Multiple criteria will continue to be used to identify students for enriched services and include 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 data such as report card grades, reading level, external assessments Measures of Academic Progress-Reading (MAP-R) and Measures of Academic Progress-Math (MAP-M) and student services (students who receive services in ESOL- English for Speakers of Other Languages, FARMS- Free and Reduced Meals System, IEP- Individualized Education Plan or a 504 plan). The Cognitive Abilities Assessment (CogAT) will not be administered this year.
The universal review process will occur in December 2021 by identifying the students who demonstrate the potential to be successful in enriched services. These students will be placed into a lottery pool. All students in the lottery pool are guaranteed enriched instruction either in the regional magnet or local enriched courses. Students with missing data, such as students new to MCPS for the 2021-2022 school year, private/home schooled students may be considered for placement into the candidate pool by an expert review panel pending all required data is submitted. See below for more information. Once the lottery pool has been identified, a lottery will be conducted for placement into a regional magnet program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Test prep is a red herring. MCPS switched to universal testing to increase participation of black and Hispanic students. Full stop. Then they switched to a “lottery” because COGAT could not be administered and they were in the midst of a discrimination lawsuit based of their use of local norming and cohorts. I (and other parents on this thread) would like some transparency around “the lottery”. How much is FARMS weighted in this lottery? Is gender being used to balance classes. How are students being pulled out of the “waitpool” to build classes.

Have they even said FARMS is a consideration? If they haven't said it is a factor, then why even ask that? Also gender balancing has always gone on with these programs. Don't need them to tell me how that's done either. It's obvious. In fact, the term lottery makes it all clear.

It is not clear at all. Lottery is just the final step. We need to know what criteria they use to put the kids in the lottery pool. Do they even consider academic performance? What is the cutoff percentile? or Are they just look at the race of the students? Are there any quotas being set for specific race to be included in the lottery pool? There are so many questions that we do not know answers to. It also appears that you are very clear on the process. Can you enlighten us parents with your wisdom?