Banneker versus School Without Walls

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
DP. The current SAT is so far removed from the test of previous generations that it shouldn't have the same name anymore. So equating it with eugenics of the 1920s is just bizarre.

Funny you should say that. Per the College Board, SAT is no longer an acronym for Scholastic Aptitude Test, it's just a word that happens to be all caps. Why? Because the "Aptitude" being tested was originally conceived of as genetic and impacted heavily by race.

Yes, the test has changed a lot over the years, but telling non-white parents that they should just trust that everything's good now with a test ORIGINALLY EXPLICITLY DESIGNED TO KEEP THEIR ANCESTORS OUT OF COLLEGE is really asking quite a lot, particularly given that the test continues to show racial and economic bias.

Somehow I doubt that all of the SAT proponents on this thread would embrace a test designed explicitly to show that white people were inferior, despite any tweaks to the test. Particularly if there was ongoing evidence of bias in the test.

(But the median scores of white kids are lower than those of Asian kids on the SAT and other standardized tests. A fact that is conveniently glossed over or framed as "white/Asian" scores. If white people want to go on about "racial superiority" they are very loose with the facts).

Yes, so if the test format really does heavily favors whites and blatantly discriminates against other groups on the "easy questions," how is it that Asians, including low SES Asians, score much higher overall than other minorities? Hint: most of them study hard from a young age because their families expect them to...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, grow up. You've been try to shout down everybody who disagrees with you for ten pages now.

Arguably, the SAT does test content, what should be easy math and reading content for college-bound high school juniors and seniors. Many SAT takers need to go back to review algebra and geometry they took two, three even for years earlier to ensure that they can score high. SAT reading is pitched at around an 8th grade level.

Yet one Banneker booster after another comes here to holler that the test is racist, superfluous, outmoded, ossified and on its way out. What's the goal? To let DCPS off the hook in failing to prepare the Banneker students to ace what should be an eminently manageable test for the cream of the DCPS HS crop, at least where AA and Latino students are concerned. Frankly, BASIS' scores for AA kids put Banneker to shame.

The data is clear that:

- The SAT is most effective at predicting parental income.
- The SAT does a worse job than high school grades at predicting student success in college.
- There are clear changes that could be made to the SAT that would reduce the racial and SES gaps by making the test harder, changes that the college board as resisted. In fact, the trend for the past couple of decades has been to make the test easier in ways that objectively increase the SES and racial gap.

Also, it's absolutely clear that the SAT was developed expressly for the purpose of offering a veneer of science to support 1920s white supremacy.

You seem unwilling to confront any of those clearly demonstrated facts, instead claiming that the SAT is "easy" and "at an 8th grade level" --- seemingly unaware that the US average SAT score is 1051, and that this national number is artificially high when compared to DMV-area schools because the test if administered for free during school hours, so far more kids take it than in other areas of the country (where only college-bound kids take it, and they pay to take the test).

I get that FOR YOUR KIDS the SAT is easy. Me too. I was a national merit scholar, took the test only once and never studied at all. But competent policymaking is not about making policy based on my individual experience or yours. It's about looking at data to understand what's actually going on in the world and making policy accordingly. Denying obvious issues with the SAT (which are amply supported by data) and taking refuge in anecdotes about your individual experience doesn't help anyone.

So you claim. Please provide peer-reviewed cites for all your claims.

The SAT is most effective at predicting parental income.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797612438732

The SAT does a worse job than high school grades at predicting student success in college.
Correlation coefficient of grades: .53. Of SAT: .51. Not peer reviewed, but this is the College Board's own data.
https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/pdf/national-sat-validity-study-overview-admissions-enrollment-leaders.pdf

There are clear changes that could be made to the SAT that would reduce the racial and SES gaps by making the test harder, changes that the college board as resisted. In fact, the trend for the past couple of decades has been to make the test easier in ways that objectively increase the SES and racial gap.
https://www.hepg.org/her-home/issues/harvard-educational-review-volume-73-issue-1/herarticle/a-method-for-reestimating-sat-scores_23

And a followup directly addressing ETS claims about Freedles work
https://www.hepg.org/her-home/issues/harvard-educational-review-volume-80-issue-1/herarticle/the-case-of-freedle,-the-sat,-and-the-standardizat

And Carl Bingham's history and the purpose behind is work on testing is widely known, but if you need a primer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Brigham

Unfortunately, the articles you cite contradict your claims or just suggest that there should be more research. Please stop spreading false information.

1) The Psychological Science article you cite:

“In all the data sets, the SAT showed incremental validity over secondary school grades in predicting subsequent academic performance, and this incremental relationship was not substantially affected by controlling for SES.”

2) The College Board study you cite:

“• The SAT is strongly predictive of college success; students with higher SAT scores are more likely to have higher grades in college.

• Using the SAT in conjunction with high school GPA (HSGPA) is the most powerful way to predict future academic performance.

• The SAT is useful beyond admissions; data show that SAT scores are important predictors of student retention to the second year.

• Colleges can use SAT scores to identify students who may need academic support before they start college and throughout their college education.”

3) The Harvard Education Review article you cite:

“By replicating Freedle’s methodology with a more recent SAT dataset and by addressing some of the technical criticisms from ETS, Santelices and Wilson confirm that SAT items do function differently for the African American and White subgroups in the verbal test and argue that the testing industry has an obligation to study this phenomenon.”

4) A Wikipedia entry about Carl Brigham (not Bingham, in case you need a reminder on his actual name) that you cite notes that in 1930 he recanted his original 1923 work:

By 1930, Brigham “realized that the SAT test scores do not measure innate ability passed through genes, but are instead a 'composite including schooling, family background, familiarity with English, and everything else relevant and irrelevant'."

The SAT test in 2021 has nothing to do with what was created in 1926--that was almost 100 years ago.

Plus, no one says the SAT is perfect. Good for the College Board to keep tweaking the SAT to make it a more useful tool for admissions.

[Anonymous]

+1000. You rock, PP. Thanks for standing up to the eugenics minded bully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, grow up. You've been try to shout down everybody who disagrees with you for ten pages now.

Arguably, the SAT does test content, what should be easy math and reading content for college-bound high school juniors and seniors. Many SAT takers need to go back to review algebra and geometry they took two, three even for years earlier to ensure that they can score high. SAT reading is pitched at around an 8th grade level.

Yet one Banneker booster after another comes here to holler that the test is racist, superfluous, outmoded, ossified and on its way out. What's the goal? To let DCPS off the hook in failing to prepare the Banneker students to ace what should be an eminently manageable test for the cream of the DCPS HS crop, at least where AA and Latino students are concerned. Frankly, BASIS' scores for AA kids put Banneker to shame.

The data is clear that:

- The SAT is most effective at predicting parental income.
- The SAT does a worse job than high school grades at predicting student success in college.
- There are clear changes that could be made to the SAT that would reduce the racial and SES gaps by making the test harder, changes that the college board as resisted. In fact, the trend for the past couple of decades has been to make the test easier in ways that objectively increase the SES and racial gap.

Also, it's absolutely clear that the SAT was developed expressly for the purpose of offering a veneer of science to support 1920s white supremacy.

You seem unwilling to confront any of those clearly demonstrated facts, instead claiming that the SAT is "easy" and "at an 8th grade level" --- seemingly unaware that the US average SAT score is 1051, and that this national number is artificially high when compared to DMV-area schools because the test if administered for free during school hours, so far more kids take it than in other areas of the country (where only college-bound kids take it, and they pay to take the test).

I get that FOR YOUR KIDS the SAT is easy. Me too. I was a national merit scholar, took the test only once and never studied at all. But competent policymaking is not about making policy based on my individual experience or yours. It's about looking at data to understand what's actually going on in the world and making policy accordingly. Denying obvious issues with the SAT (which are amply supported by data) and taking refuge in anecdotes about your individual experience doesn't help anyone.

So you claim. Please provide peer-reviewed cites for all your claims.

The SAT is most effective at predicting parental income.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797612438732

The SAT does a worse job than high school grades at predicting student success in college.
Correlation coefficient of grades: .53. Of SAT: .51. Not peer reviewed, but this is the College Board's own data.
https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/pdf/national-sat-validity-study-overview-admissions-enrollment-leaders.pdf

There are clear changes that could be made to the SAT that would reduce the racial and SES gaps by making the test harder, changes that the college board as resisted. In fact, the trend for the past couple of decades has been to make the test easier in ways that objectively increase the SES and racial gap.
https://www.hepg.org/her-home/issues/harvard-educational-review-volume-73-issue-1/herarticle/a-method-for-reestimating-sat-scores_23

And a followup directly addressing ETS claims about Freedles work
https://www.hepg.org/her-home/issues/harvard-educational-review-volume-80-issue-1/herarticle/the-case-of-freedle,-the-sat,-and-the-standardizat

And Carl Bingham's history and the purpose behind is work on testing is widely known, but if you need a primer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Brigham

Unfortunately, the articles you cite contradict your claims or just suggest that there should be more research. Please stop spreading false information.

1) The Psychological Science article you cite:

“In all the data sets, the SAT showed incremental validity over secondary school grades in predicting subsequent academic performance, and this incremental relationship was not substantially affected by controlling for SES.”

2) The College Board study you cite:

“• The SAT is strongly predictive of college success; students with higher SAT scores are more likely to have higher grades in college.

• Using the SAT in conjunction with high school GPA (HSGPA) is the most powerful way to predict future academic performance.

• The SAT is useful beyond admissions; data show that SAT scores are important predictors of student retention to the second year.

• Colleges can use SAT scores to identify students who may need academic support before they start college and throughout their college education.”

3) The Harvard Education Review article you cite:

“By replicating Freedle’s methodology with a more recent SAT dataset and by addressing some of the technical criticisms from ETS, Santelices and Wilson confirm that SAT items do function differently for the African American and White subgroups in the verbal test and argue that the testing industry has an obligation to study this phenomenon.”

4) A Wikipedia entry about Carl Brigham (not Bingham, in case you need a reminder on his actual name) that you cite notes that in 1930 he recanted his original 1923 work:

By 1930, Brigham “realized that the SAT test scores do not measure innate ability passed through genes, but are instead a 'composite including schooling, family background, familiarity with English, and everything else relevant and irrelevant'."

The SAT test in 2021 has nothing to do with what was created in 1926--that was almost 100 years ago.

Plus, no one says the SAT is perfect. Good for the College Board to keep tweaking the SAT to make it a more useful tool for admissions.

Banneker's SAT math average math score is LOWER than its verbal score. Santelices and Wilson "confirm that SAT items do function differently for the African American and White subgroups in the VERBAL TEST." OK, I get that, so what's DCPS' excuse for Banneker's hopeless average SAT math score? How can poster after poster come here claiming that the school is "excellent" when most of the students still test in the 400s on SAT math? Where's the racial bias in the math questions?

[Anonymous]

This is such foolishness…in the 1980s my African-American mother was very clear that I was never to measure myself against black folks or white folks because the academic performance of both was abysmal to mediocre, certainly nothing to aspire too. Luckily we lived in a college town and several of the very few Asians (at the time) in my hometown attended Saturday math classes at the university, which my mom had me join from elem through middle. She was never explicit about it, but she was certainly communicating that these are the kids/families you need to be emulating, at least academically. Yes, my parents, both of whom grew up dirt poor in the Jim Crow south, were “uppity” like that, and thank God they were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I used to volunteer at Banneker and I was blown away by the students. They were such amazing, hard working and intelligent kid. They were respectful and very motivated to serve in their community.

It's depressing that every time the school is mentioned on DCUM you see parents doing Olympics level mental gymnastics to defend why they don't want to send their children to a school. Just admit that you where their child would be an ethnic minority. There have been studies that white families have need at least 30 % of white students where they will feel comfortable sending their children to an ethnically mixed school.

+1 This is the truth and the rest are just excuses. It's difficult being a minority as kid-bullying can be brutal. I've known a few recent grads and they all say "over prepared for college". They have attended Top 10 Unis, HBCUs, etc. The most important thing is that they are graduating and doing well. No school is perfect and maybe Banneker needs to focus some on standardized testing. Unless your kid is there, you really don't know. It may not even impact your child. You really have to ask the administration what type of prep is provided. Even private school parents complain about the test scores and schools not doing enough.....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is such foolishness…in the 1980s my African-American mother was very clear that I was never to measure myself against black folks or white folks because the academic performance of both was abysmal to mediocre, certainly nothing to aspire too. Luckily we lived in a college town and several of the very few Asians (at the time) in my hometown attended Saturday math classes at the university, which my mom had me join from elem through middle. She was never explicit about it, but she was certainly communicating that these are the kids/families you need to be emulating, at least academically. Yes, my parents, both of whom grew up dirt poor in the Jim Crow south, were “uppity” like that, and thank God they were.

I like this story.

[Anonymous]

Many of us on this thread would probably agree if average SAT scores were in the 600s. But the 400s for math? Please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such foolishness…in the 1980s my African-American mother was very clear that I was never to measure myself against black folks or white folks because the academic performance of both was abysmal to mediocre, certainly nothing to aspire too. Luckily we lived in a college town and several of the very few Asians (at the time) in my hometown attended Saturday math classes at the university, which my mom had me join from elem through middle. She was never explicit about it, but she was certainly communicating that these are the kids/families you need to be emulating, at least academically. Yes, my parents, both of whom grew up dirt poor in the Jim Crow south, were “uppity” like that, and thank God they were.

I like this story.

Me, too. My spouse, who's first generation Asian-American, got 700s on the SAT despite being the only person in his family who spoke halfway decent English.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to volunteer at Banneker and I was blown away by the students. They were such amazing, hard working and intelligent kid. They were respectful and very motivated to serve in their community.

It's depressing that every time the school is mentioned on DCUM you see parents doing Olympics level mental gymnastics to defend why they don't want to send their children to a school. Just admit that you where their child would be an ethnic minority. There have been studies that white families have need at least 30 % of white students where they will feel comfortable sending their children to an ethnically mixed school.

+1 This is the truth and the rest are just excuses. It's difficult being a minority as kid-bullying can be brutal. I've known a few recent grads and they all say "over prepared for college". They have attended Top 10 Unis, HBCUs, etc. The most important thing is that they are graduating and doing well. No school is perfect and maybe Banneker needs to focus some on standardized testing. Unless your kid is there, you really don't know. It may not even impact your child. You really have to ask the administration what type of prep is provided. Even private school parents complain about the test scores and schools not doing enough.....

It is difficult being a minority in an all white school. It is not difficult being one of few white kids. Minority children are very inclusive and nice or at least this has been my kids’ experience. We have come believe there are some real problems in white culture.

[Anonymous]

Please define "white culture."

Where I grew up, almost all of the poor kids were white. To my knowledge, very few scored high on SATs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, grow up. You've been try to shout down everybody who disagrees with you for ten pages now.

Arguably, the SAT does test content, what should be easy math and reading content for college-bound high school juniors and seniors. Many SAT takers need to go back to review algebra and geometry they took two, three even for years earlier to ensure that they can score high. SAT reading is pitched at around an 8th grade level.

Yet one Banneker booster after another comes here to holler that the test is racist, superfluous, outmoded, ossified and on its way out. What's the goal? To let DCPS off the hook in failing to prepare the Banneker students to ace what should be an eminently manageable test for the cream of the DCPS HS crop, at least where AA and Latino students are concerned. Frankly, BASIS' scores for AA kids put Banneker to shame.

The data is clear that:

- The SAT is most effective at predicting parental income.
- The SAT does a worse job than high school grades at predicting student success in college.
- There are clear changes that could be made to the SAT that would reduce the racial and SES gaps by making the test harder, changes that the college board as resisted. In fact, the trend for the past couple of decades has been to make the test easier in ways that objectively increase the SES and racial gap.

Also, it's absolutely clear that the SAT was developed expressly for the purpose of offering a veneer of science to support 1920s white supremacy.

You seem unwilling to confront any of those clearly demonstrated facts, instead claiming that the SAT is "easy" and "at an 8th grade level" --- seemingly unaware that the US average SAT score is 1051, and that this national number is artificially high when compared to DMV-area schools because the test if administered for free during school hours, so far more kids take it than in other areas of the country (where only college-bound kids take it, and they pay to take the test).

I get that FOR YOUR KIDS the SAT is easy. Me too. I was a national merit scholar, took the test only once and never studied at all. But competent policymaking is not about making policy based on my individual experience or yours. It's about looking at data to understand what's actually going on in the world and making policy accordingly. Denying obvious issues with the SAT (which are amply supported by data) and taking refuge in anecdotes about your individual experience doesn't help anyone.

So you claim. Please provide peer-reviewed cites for all your claims.

The SAT is most effective at predicting parental income.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797612438732

The SAT does a worse job than high school grades at predicting student success in college.
Correlation coefficient of grades: .53. Of SAT: .51. Not peer reviewed, but this is the College Board's own data.
https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/pdf/national-sat-validity-study-overview-admissions-enrollment-leaders.pdf

There are clear changes that could be made to the SAT that would reduce the racial and SES gaps by making the test harder, changes that the college board as resisted. In fact, the trend for the past couple of decades has been to make the test easier in ways that objectively increase the SES and racial gap.
https://www.hepg.org/her-home/issues/harvard-educational-review-volume-73-issue-1/herarticle/a-method-for-reestimating-sat-scores_23

And a followup directly addressing ETS claims about Freedles work
https://www.hepg.org/her-home/issues/harvard-educational-review-volume-80-issue-1/herarticle/the-case-of-freedle,-the-sat,-and-the-standardizat

And Carl Bingham's history and the purpose behind is work on testing is widely known, but if you need a primer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Brigham

Unfortunately, the articles you cite contradict your claims or just suggest that there should be more research. Please stop spreading false information.

1) The Psychological Science article you cite:

“In all the data sets, the SAT showed incremental validity over secondary school grades in predicting subsequent academic performance, and this incremental relationship was not substantially affected by controlling for SES.”

2) The College Board study you cite:

“• The SAT is strongly predictive of college success; students with higher SAT scores are more likely to have higher grades in college.

• Using the SAT in conjunction with high school GPA (HSGPA) is the most powerful way to predict future academic performance.

• The SAT is useful beyond admissions; data show that SAT scores are important predictors of student retention to the second year.

• Colleges can use SAT scores to identify students who may need academic support before they start college and throughout their college education.”

3) The Harvard Education Review article you cite:

“By replicating Freedle’s methodology with a more recent SAT dataset and by addressing some of the technical criticisms from ETS, Santelices and Wilson confirm that SAT items do function differently for the African American and White subgroups in the verbal test and argue that the testing industry has an obligation to study this phenomenon.”

4) A Wikipedia entry about Carl Brigham (not Bingham, in case you need a reminder on his actual name) that you cite notes that in 1930 he recanted his original 1923 work:

By 1930, Brigham “realized that the SAT test scores do not measure innate ability passed through genes, but are instead a 'composite including schooling, family background, familiarity with English, and everything else relevant and irrelevant'."

The SAT test in 2021 has nothing to do with what was created in 1926--that was almost 100 years ago.

Plus, no one says the SAT is perfect. Good for the College Board to keep tweaking the SAT to make it a more useful tool for admissions.

+100. You nailed it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to volunteer at Banneker and I was blown away by the students. They were such amazing, hard working and intelligent kid. They were respectful and very motivated to serve in their community.

It's depressing that every time the school is mentioned on DCUM you see parents doing Olympics level mental gymnastics to defend why they don't want to send their children to a school. Just admit that you where their child would be an ethnic minority. There have been studies that white families have need at least 30 % of white students where they will feel comfortable sending their children to an ethnically mixed school.

+1 This is the truth and the rest are just excuses. It's difficult being a minority as kid-bullying can be brutal. I've known a few recent grads and they all say "over prepared for college". They have attended Top 10 Unis, HBCUs, etc. The most important thing is that they are graduating and doing well. No school is perfect and maybe Banneker needs to focus some on standardized testing. Unless your kid is there, you really don't know. It may not even impact your child. You really have to ask the administration what type of prep is provided. Even private school parents complain about the test scores and schools not doing enough.....

Actually, we really know, since Banneker's average SAT scores are awful for a magnet program. I'm not buying that lack of focus on standardized testing is the crux of the problem, not when the SAT trips up few HS upperclassmen who excel at reading and math. The math tested is nothing more than algebra I, II, geometry, which have become MS subjects in the last 20 years for the strongest college-bound math students. Familiarizing students with the test format is useful, but doesn't take very long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to volunteer at Banneker and I was blown away by the students. They were such amazing, hard working and intelligent kid. They were respectful and very motivated to serve in their community.

It's depressing that every time the school is mentioned on DCUM you see parents doing Olympics level mental gymnastics to defend why they don't want to send their children to a school. Just admit that you where their child would be an ethnic minority. There have been studies that white families have need at least 30 % of white students where they will feel comfortable sending their children to an ethnically mixed school.

+1 This is the truth and the rest are just excuses. It's difficult being a minority as kid-bullying can be brutal. I've known a few recent grads and they all say "over prepared for college". They have attended Top 10 Unis, HBCUs, etc. The most important thing is that they are graduating and doing well. No school is perfect and maybe Banneker needs to focus some on standardized testing. Unless your kid is there, you really don't know. It may not even impact your child. You really have to ask the administration what type of prep is provided. Even private school parents complain about the test scores and schools not doing enough.....

Actually, we really know, since Banneker's average SAT scores are awful for a magnet program. I'm not buying that lack of focus on standardized testing is the crux of the problem, not when the SAT trips up few HS upperclassmen who excel at reading and math. The math tested is nothing more than algebra I, II, geometry, which have become MS subjects in the last 20 years for the strongest college-bound math students. Familiarizing students with the test format is useful, but doesn't take very long.

So who is "we"...So "we" has access to multiple kids enrolled presently? Who can even verify the scores presented are actually accurate? DCPS is notorious for bad data...Could be an uproar for nothing and if it doesn't impact your kid, why even waste all the energy...Weird...

[Anonymous]

21 pages of opinions and mostly all from folks with no student at Banneker. Interesting.