Disciplining the undisciplinable - HELP me with my 4yo DD
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Anonymous
NP here and this is our 6 y/o old too - ADHD and HFA. His behavior got significantly better with meds and ABA therapy. |
Anonymous
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Another Np with a child who was like this who was subsequently diagnosed with ASD. First we got an anxiety diagnosis and that was accurate but the root of the anxiety was unmanaged ASD.
The diagnosis was hard. I am so sad that we spent DC’s entirely early childhood trying to use parenting techniques that are not intended for kids who have autism. Obviously you cannot diagnose online like this but now when I hear if a difficult child I just want to beg the parent to not make my mistakes and rule out autism before trying yet another time out. |
Anonymous
+2 This does sound excessive and like you two are handling it appropriately but it isn’t working. Time to call in professionals. |
Anonymous
| I don't really think sticker charts work. I know some swear by them and they worked okayish for my easygoing 3yo for a bit, but I think the consequences need to be more literal and easy to understand vs. just external validation. |
Anonymous
| I would definitely make an appointment to talk to my pediatrician to start and to see what specialist they recommend so that we could get professional help from someone who can identify what these patterns mean. This sounds out of the realm of normal 4yo defiance (saying this with a ton of compassion as I also have a difficult 4yo). Hugs! |
Anonymous
| Another book to recommend is Whole Brain Child. The best thing about the book is it has activities and ways to talk to your child and bring them into what you are learning and how you will be applying it. I have fallen into the trap before of reading something and applying it, without brining my kids along in the planning and execution phase. So, I am parenting differently but they are not in on the learning or the why of what is happening. This book gave me ways to talk about it and opened up some communication that has been really effective. |
Anonymous
| Warning and time out. Stick with it even if she refuses and it takes hours. |
Anonymous
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Same exact boat with our DD4.5. I could have written this word for word.
It's exhausting. |
Anonymous
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When she is calm, make eye contact and tell her that you know that she is having a hard time with big feelings and that you are going to find some good doctors who will know what to do. On some level she knows she is out of control. Remove most things from her bedroom so that she doesn’t hurt anything or herself.
Get an allergy evaluation with Dr. Nsouli. That won’t be the cure, but could be a part. He’s in Burke and at the Watergate. Praise constantly for good behavior. Can you and husband alternate one on one during more difficult times, like transition times? Definitely keep a written log of meltdowns and suspected triggers and what happened and how you handled it, and time of day. Feed frequent high-protein snacks, if possible. The behavior log is where a therapist will start, so save time and have it ready. Don’t talk when she’s hit the top of the crisis cycle. It’s pointless and will frustrate you. Use visual cues and short phrases when she’s ramping up, if you can. “Safe hands.” “Breathe with me.” Sometimes Popsicles help kids regulate. It’s not a reward in that case. The cold sucking helps them calm. Good luck. |
Anonymous
| I have not read all the posts. I only have to say that I would not use her room as a place for you to time out. unless you plan on stripping her room of everything except mattress on the floor, then I would definitely not put her in a place with her toys and her belongings for a time out. I do agree with the posters and say that you should probably have her evaluated in someway so that you can start to help her get a handle on her anxiety. |
Anonymous
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Several thoughts ...
If you are walking on eggshells and at your wits end, get professional help. You can pay for a private evaluation with a short timeline or go through your pediatrician to find the best course of action for getting an evaluation covered by insurance if money is a factor (private evaluations usually run $3-4k). You can also see professionals early that help with providing immediate supports while you wait to get a comprehensive evaluation. Your child may end up with a diagnosis or may not, but you will end up with a lot more insight and tools to help your family turn things around. Ideally contact your school to start an educational evaluation process before entering K (usually Child Find). This is different than an evaluation from a psychologist or a developmental pediatrician in that it's geared towards identifying what your child will need in the educational setting. By having this in place or at least having established communication with the school as your child enters the school setting, you're more likely to be able to immediately get on top of issues if (when) it turns out the gen ed setting with no accommodations is too much for them. There is usually a number of kindergarten kids starting this processing in late October/November, so get ahead of it. In the meantime, prioritize creating a consistent and simplified surroundings and routine for your child. A surprise outing may seem fun to you, but it can drive a child with anxiety and sensory issues over the edge. Simplifying their surroundings means less to throw or break during a meltdown, but also lessens anxiety. Your goal is to help your child learn how to regulate their responses, part of which is helping them learn how to calm down once they're aroused. The problem with time outs is they're conceived as a way to discipline a child while they're in an aroused state. Children who are constantly melting down are showing that they don't have the skills to regulate, so attempting to discipline when they're not calm simply isn't going to work. So that's a long way of saying, get rid of the time outs as a discipline tool or really any attempts to discipline in the middle of a meltdown. Time ins can help a child calm down safely so long as the adult can remain calm and non-reactive. Discipline is simply enforcing rules and expectations consistently (like a PP said, no "special days" or exceptions) and helping the child develop executive skills that are lagging. Book recommendations: Dr. Ross Greene's "The Explosive Child" is pretty much the go to recommendation and a good one. OP was right that it can be geared more towards parenting children who are a little bit older, but the mindset and principals are pretty universal. As trite as it sounds, your child isn't trying to "win" by having a meltdown like OP described, they have exceeded their ability to cope with the situation and need help both with calming down in the short term and developing executive functioning skills in the long term. The Kazdin Method - Rewards systems DO work, but they have to be practiced in very specific ways that are different in how most families do rewards charts. The Kazdin Method is a way to implement behaviorist techniques to extinguish specific bad behaviors using positive reinforcement without punishment. Not using punishment is harder in that it requires more effort and consistency from the adults (and also runs counter to how many of us were raised), however it is more effective for many children, especially those who get labeled as "oppositional". |
Anonymous
Agree with this. We had a difficult year with our DD when she was 3 and some of it sounds like what OP is talking about. Reward systems are really bad for DD and tend to stress her out. Even now, several years later, when we've addressed the behavioral issues that emerged at 3, we are super wary of reward systems in classrooms. She won't melt down like she used to but it creates a source of stress and anxiety for her. Same with time outs or anything that feels like a rejection when she's behaving poorly. It triggers this instant fear of abandonment. What does work: - Using music, comfort items, little games and rituals to make difficult or unpleasant tasks more fun and easier for her. Back when we were going through this, we had a playlist with a song for literally every transition or chore that had to be done every day. A brushing teeth song, a set of bath songs, getting dressed songs, songs for relaxing, songs for eating. We still sing some of these songs on hard days. Music is really central to DD's well being and you can see her visibly relax and adjust when we put on music. We continue to use music a lot to keep things even keel in our house. Also comfort items like special lovies or stuffed animals. Having ritual words to say before school, after school, before bed. All of this creates a comforting framework that seems to relax her and help her be her best self. - In the moment when you want to give a time out, offer a hug instead. I still do this one. When she's just losing it and being so obstinate and difficult (won't eat offered food, won't get dressed, is getting whiny, etc.), I say, "It seems like you are having a hard time right now. Would you like a hug?" I was VERY skeptical of this tactic when we started, and it also took practice to override my instinct to want to get away from her when she is annoying the crap out of me and instead offer connection. But it's like magic. After we hug, she can often articulate whatever feeling is causing the poor behavior (often: tired, hungry, frustrated, still stewing over something from earlier or last week that felt unjust). And we can have a conversation and move forward. |
Anonymous
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Hey OP, lots of sympathy for you but also, don’t despair. I have an intense, anxious, smart kid who was explosive pretty much from birth to age 7 and at age 9 he still struggles with anxiety but the explosiveness has calmed down so much. He is in therapy and his therapist agrees…there is nothing going on here except the fact that some kids really are just wired to be intense and sensitive. This is what I want to tell you—Age four was the absolute WORST. I didn’t think I would get through that year. Very similar behavior to what you describe. So, so hard.
You are doing a ton of things right but don’t expect yourself to be perfect. Sometimes you will get upset and that is actually an appropriate reaction. They need to know their actions impact others. Of course remaining calm as much as possible is ideal but guess what, you’re human. Honestly, you sound like a great parent. I found it really helpful to read up on intense kids, including the old classic “Raising your spirited child” which just helps affirm your experiences and gives some helpful framing and tools. Therapy helps too ( for me and for DS) but he didn’t start till more like age 8. It’s not easy but you will get through it. Hugs to you OP! |
Anonymous
How was your early childhood? |
Anonymous
| Read Good Inside by Becky Kennedy |