Disciplining the undisciplinable - HELP me with my 4yo DD

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for the input everyone. I agree with PP above who talks about consistent discipline - we definitely fail there. Older DS has anxiety, I wouldn't be surprised if she develops it too. DH and I both ask each other all the time - where did she come from? We were both anxious but very chill kids. Her intensity and volume is so out of character for our introverted low key family, and I try so hard to embrace it because I want to love her for who she is (I DO love her for who she is), but I am completely exhausted by the behavior.

I’d recommend moving to the special needs forum. You’ll get more compassion there. Definitely a psychologist/therapist for the three of you (her and parents, most will rotate based on what she needs - some family, some just parent, some just her). Time outs don’t work for kids like that. Time ins do but they get old. Make sure she knows her feelings are uncomfortable but are not “bad.” She’s old enough to know this isn’t fun, isn’t normal etc and your job is to protect her self esteem and sense of self. She’s a great kid with huge feelings! You are going to help her learn to talk to them better. Read as many feelings books to her as you can. Talk about feelings when you aren’t in the moment. Dr Becky has a class on deeply feeling kids you might enjoy. I’d recommend the book Mindful Discipline (will be helpful in you remaining present for her) and the Ross Greene Explosive Child. I have a tough but delightful 4 year old too. I feel your love for her and understand how hard it is. You are doing the right things!

[Anonymous]

Definitely agree with others that you should contact a developmental pediatrician and likely get a referral for a juvenile psychiatrist and/or behavioral psychologist. This could be anxiety or another deeper issue that is being exhibited as aggression and extreme emotional outbursts.

I think you’ve done all you can possibly do without getting the assistance of professionals who deal with these challenges and have great tools and resources to help you all get on a better path.

This is not a physically or emotionally safe and healthy environment for any of you right now. I applaud you for waving the flag and escalating to a higher level. Wishing you luck.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like food allergies.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you are doing your very best. I had a few thoughts:

1) When you implement a sticker chart or reward system or put up a visual check list (like getting out the door with shoes, backpack, lunch) you have to keep doing it for a longer time than you probably think. At least a month, but with a strong willed child, longer. And like a pp said...make it iron clad. Many parents think they’re consistent but when it comes down to it, there is intermittent reinforcement left and right with tiny adjustments or “oh it’s a special day” or “we don’t have time”.

2) Most kids need more movement and exercise than they are getting. I particularly think that morning before school would be a great time for kids to get fresh air, run around, climb something. It calms their bodies and minds. I know morning routines are often hectic getting out of the house, so it may seem crazy to factor in 20-30 minutes of movement, but if it saves you from the meltdowns over not wanting to wear shoes or I didn’t get the color cup I wanted...it could be worth it. If you can’t get outside then put on a series of Go Noodle videos

[Anonymous]

Completely recommend against a sticker chart or other reward type system. Smart kids don’t react well to them in the ling term. Also, don’t do time out. That’s the worst for a kid with anxiety. Do time IN when a parent takes child to a quiet place and provides a calm unreactive presence for as long as the child needs to calm down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was like this as a child. I had/have really bad anxiety.

Chiming in to say same. Not sure if the behavior had already started at 4 because I don't have memories that far back, but sounds like my whole childhood. Horrible impulse control and disregulated emotional responses (entirely with my family/at home). Was really bright and a perfectionist so did extremely well at school, so I'm sure my parents had no f'ing clue why I behaved that way at home. And I have horrible anxiety which I didn't even realize until I was an adult.

At 30, I'm still working on proper regulation of emotions when I don't feel "in control" of a situation. Ask my husband how fun I am when I slip into my anxious rage responses instead of taking a minute to process before responding to something.

[Anonymous]

My DD just turned 4 and has some similar challenges. She’s destructive but perhaps a bit less so than you describe, but a lot of kicking, biting, yelling, breaking things etc when she’s mad. She has large stretches of being extremely kind and loving too. She has resisted all efforts to potty train her. I don’t think the behavior is “planned”. For example, if she throws a tantrum over not getting a cookie she can stop. A tantrum over her anger / sadness she just doesn’t seem able to stop. I had an allergy that caused severe congestion and affected my hearing as a kid and have ADHD and wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the same for her. Just today she wanted to be carried everywhere and woke up last night crying because her toes hurt - she bit the nails and skin to the point she has sores. She just had her 4 year old physical a few weeks ago and here’s what we’re doing (in case it helps):

(1) most her anger and outbursts are because we don’t understand her so we’ve started (private) speech therapy
(2) we’re also pursing a speech and OT evaluation through our school district (but haven’t submitted all the paperwork
(3) after many calls I found a family behavior therapist and starting meeting soon. He recommended the book “The Whole Brain Child” and another therapist and some friends recommended “Raising Your Spirited Child”
(4) she had a pediatric ophthalmology appointment to rule that out as a factor in her anger
(5) she has an audiologist appointment soon (she has ear tubes; had a perforated ear drum as a baby, speaks loudly, is terrified of loud noises / things that vibrate and didn’t pass her hearing exam at the pediatrician for many frequencies so I’m “hopeful” this will explain a lot)
(6) ped has referred us to a developmental ped - we are working on the paperwork
(7) speech therapist - who works mostly with autistic children - has recommended seeking a private OT evaluation (but the developmental ped might do that too)
(8) in making calls I also spoke to a child psychiatrist. He’s not taking patients right now and typically starts working with kids around age 5. He doesn’t think zoom would work well but put me on his list to call in a few months. I’m hopeful that timing will either mean that it’s clear we should meet with him or we’ve seen improvements / answers from the other steps

Our pediatrician spent a long time talking to me and then called me that night while she was writing her notes to ask more questions. Your ped should be a resource and your school district can help (I hadn’t realized to that). I wrote the “what do you wish you’d known” post in the SN forum and got some good tips when it felt overwhelming to start.

[Anonymous]

Pp here. I also have an 8 year old DD and like you described op I see signs of anxiety and perfectionism but generally she’s a typical / pretty awesome kid. It is hard to know what’s triggered by the pandemic but either way it’s worth seeking help. And sorry about the typos

[Anonymous]

I have a 2.5 year old and behaves very similarly to the daughter of OP, minus being extremely loud. However at daycare she is a compliant child. She has had hitting and 1 biting issue, but for the most part follows the program. At home, it’s a different story. Had had outbursts since about 7 or 8 months old. I am trying to gauge if this is “terrible twos” or something else. She will apologize and displays concern and empathy if she thinks I am hurt, so I am pleased with that.

This has been a helpful thread. Thanks everyone.

[Anonymous]

Hi… Resurrecting this thread because we’re in the same boat. But with a 5 yo. Anyone else want to chime in to add some wisdom or advice? OP, if you’re out there, any update? (hope all is well/sending good vibes)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was never as bad as you say, but around that age, when there was such blatant outright defiance, we were not averse to using moderate spanking to re-establish control and provide an unpleasant consequence for this. (You said "tough love.")

NO Absolutely not OP NO

[Anonymous]

I totally agree about seeking advice from a development pediatrician. The extreme behavior could be a result of anxiety or a behavioral disorder; she might also benefit from play therapy (the negative self talk is the worst of it IMO).

Otherwise, I’m sure you’ve tried everything in the meantime, but I would implement (if you don’t have it already) a very strict schedule. Some of her flying off the handle may come from being anxious about what is happening next. Routine, structure, rules can bring a lot of good to a defiant child. But you have to be strict and stick to it or risk the outcome of her learning greater levels of manipulation. Also, some kids are more motivated by consequences for bad behavior than rewards for good behavior. Or a combo. Try the inverse of the treats to see if you get any changes.

[Anonymous]

I work with young kids and find age four the most challenging age, but your daughter is reacting outside the range of typical. Anxiety would be my first guess, but feel it will be anxiety in combination with something else. Seek guidance and assessment to help your family.

[Anonymous]

I think you need to make her room safe for time outs. You could use 123 magic or another thing. The timeout isn’t a “punishment” it’s help calming down and regaining control. So the room needs to be a padded cell, basically, so you don’t have to intervene. I would offer stuffies and maybe a cozy chair as a “calm down” corner. Short term it’s more work for you but long term it will help.

The big red flag is your DH “losing it” about the guitars. Adults should not “lose it” with children. We get frustrated and make mistakes, but there’s never an excuse for “losing it.” I think people use that term to try not normalize or excuse behavior that is not normal or excusable no matter how mad you are. Frankly given your situation with your DD, the guitars should be put away. Does that suck for him? Of course it does! There’s nothing fair about parenting.

I also like the book “parenting with love and logic.” Some of it is weird or useless but a lot of it is great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hi… Resurrecting this thread because we’re in the same boat. But with a 5 yo. Anyone else want to chime in to add some wisdom or advice? OP, if you’re out there, any update? (hope all is well/sending good vibes)

I wasn't a part of the original thread but I went to the SN forum asking questions back in the fall of 2021 because of similar issues with my 5yo son. He ended up being diagnosed with severe ADHD-combined and autism level 1. Strikingly similar presentation as the OP of this thread. Obviously have no idea how OP's situation turned out and would never try to internet diagnose. Simply advising how our situation played out because autism never entered our minds as a possibility.

First, I'd recommend starting with the pediatrician. Just be frank and they can give recommendations from there. Be prepared for waitlists, but if you're able to pay out of pocket they will not be as long. We did a combo of this-psycho-educational testing out of pocket which nailed down the ADHD-Combined plus waitlist for Kennedy Krieger Center for Autism and Related Disorders (got off the waitlist in Oct of this year). If you're in the MD/NOVA/DC area be aware that finding a developmental pediatrician as recommended by some of the folks previously in this thread can be arduous. We are willing to drive anywhere in the area and are still on waitlists for developmental pediatricians so keep that in mind.

And finally, always remember this is not because of your parenting. We spent a lot of time in the lead up to appointments completely confused because nothing we tried seemed to work. Good news is with education on our part and medication plus occupational therapy on his, he is thriving.