Spin-off "The student as a paying customer"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well this gets to be more of a problem when schools charge so much. $75k all in for a year of school is insanely expensive for most people. It's only natural that they're going to want something tangible back for that type of money.

Turns out that there is some point where an intangible idea like "you must have learned something" isn't going to cut it for the kind of money they're demanding. It's the schools own fault, imo.

I say this as someone with no skin (no kids, no plans to have them, graduated long ago with no loans) in the game btw.

...but the professors literally have z e r o control over that.

Seriously, what are professors supposed to do, go to each and every student's room and demand to watch them study to make sure they actually put the required effort in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well this gets to be more of a problem when schools charge so much. $75k all in for a year of school is insanely expensive for most people. It's only natural that they're going to want something tangible back for that type of money.

Turns out that there is some point where an intangible idea like "you must have learned something" isn't going to cut it for the kind of money they're demanding. It's the schools own fault, imo.

I say this as someone with no skin (no kids, no plans to have them, graduated long ago with no loans) in the game btw.

...but the professors literally have z e r o control over that.

They go along with it though. They're complicit in a corrupt system. They're not idiots, they must see where this is going.

You think it's going to get any better when they're charging 100k a year?

So you're saying they should flunk more kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This attitude seems to cut right to the heart of a very entitled generation.
The student is a paying customer for dorms and food, yes! The actual education, is NOT a commodity. "I paid 3k for this chemistry class and I still got a D, I should pass because I paid". I am former faulty, and I got so fed up with kids who expected to be spoon fed the answers and information, and won't open their BOOKS . Student: "You didn't tell me this would be on the exam." Me: "Is it in the assigned textbook? Is it in the syllabus?" Back in MY day, I read the entire assigned text! Imagine that! And if I didn't understand the assigned text, I read another text covering the same material. I went to lectures, and talked to TAs as needed.
I know some people may say "Why go to college if I can just read the book?" The value added is from faculty helping you understand concepts, or correlate the material to other disciplines, from having peers to spark discussions.
Sheesh

Sorry, professor. Long gone are the days where a year of college could be paid with some summer job. Undergrad is $28,000-78,000 per year. You Ivory Tower bureaucrats are living high on the hog in your bubble, most of you contribute literally nothing to society and just exist to exploit families. That's just the truth. College has become a very expensive racket.

Well I hope for your sake and the sake of your children that all teachers everywhere decide to quit tomorrow. That'll teach 'em.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Older student here again. But, side question. I have a Prof that will give edits on papers and then we have next draft... what am I to think of this Prof who will literary rewrite my sentence(not content, just phrasing) and then I will put his sentence into next draft thinking that is what he thinks sounds better, and he will rip to shreds that sentence telling me it makes no sense?

There are severe grammatical and/or syntax errors. The edits your professor made was the best he could but your sentences are still problematic.

[Anonymous]

Those of you who have never worked in academia have it wrong. It IS a scam, and the professors are being used by the schools. Here is an example: did you know that even a full professor, with tenure (top of the pecking order) has to bring in 85% of his/her salary with grant money (forever). Each grant usually lasts 2-5 years, so you are constantly seeking your next grant. Yes, the University only covers 15% of their salary (and makes a ton of "indirect costs" off all of the grants the bring in).

Successful researchers typically have a team of technicians, statisticians, coordinators: and the professor has to bring in 100% of their team's salaries (including benefits). It is not a cushy, relaxing, navel-gazing existence--trust me.

[Anonymous]

Note: the percentage varies, but at Hopkins it is 85% (which is another reason, faculty members often push students off to TA's. they are under so much pressure to keep their jobs--literally)

[Anonymous]

A lot of colleges coast on their name and reputation. The quality of teaching and lecturers/professors is not that good.
Sounds like some cannot even be bothered to assist struggling students

[Anonymous]

College has become “an experience” that is sold to the parents. Of all the colleges and all the majors only a few are even remotely worth the money. Those are very hard and those teachers will not let the student off (unless they are rich at an elite school) There the gentleman’s C has morphed into the Gentleman’s A.

[Anonymous]

When people complain about tuition, they never seem to talk about discount rate. Those parents paying full freight are not only covering the costs of their own kids but others too. Schools give tons on discounts/scholarships, etc. to attract high stat kids and/or kids so their rankings improve. The reason universities focus so much on rank is because it's the #1 consideration for students and parents. Thus, it's a vicious cycle. If people didn't focus so much on ridiculous rankings, discount rate could go down, and tuition could also go down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Those of you who have never worked in academia have it wrong. It IS a scam, and the professors are being used by the schools. Here is an example: did you know that even a full professor, with tenure (top of the pecking order) has to bring in 85% of his/her salary with grant money (forever). Each grant usually lasts 2-5 years, so you are constantly seeking your next grant. Yes, the University only covers 15% of their salary (and makes a ton of "indirect costs" off all of the grants the bring in).

Successful researchers typically have a team of technicians, statisticians, coordinators: and the professor has to bring in 100% of their team's salaries (including benefits). It is not a cushy, relaxing, navel-gazing existence--trust me.

Former college teacher here: I agree. The schools would hire for a year or two then roll you out to the next one. Tenure track is elusive and handed out to the URMs that had the free ride in the first place. The salaries for most lower level teachers (that would be most) is ridiculous. It was a satisfying career but unaffordable after a few years.

[Anonymous]

And just try to fail someone for never attending class and never doing any of the assignments.

[Anonymous]

What is up with $75K a year and no AC in the dorms?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those of you who have never worked in academia have it wrong. It IS a scam, and the professors are being used by the schools. Here is an example: did you know that even a full professor, with tenure (top of the pecking order) has to bring in 85% of his/her salary with grant money (forever). Each grant usually lasts 2-5 years, so you are constantly seeking your next grant. Yes, the University only covers 15% of their salary (and makes a ton of "indirect costs" off all of the grants the bring in).

Successful researchers typically have a team of technicians, statisticians, coordinators: and the professor has to bring in 100% of their team's salaries (including benefits). It is not a cushy, relaxing, navel-gazing existence--trust me.

Former college teacher here: I agree. The schools would hire for a year or two then roll you out to the next one. Tenure track is elusive and handed out to the URMs that had the free ride in the first place. The salaries for most lower level teachers (that would be most) is ridiculous. It was a satisfying career but unaffordable after a few years.

This is completely untrue. “URMs” are underrepresented among faculty, especially TT and tenured faculty.

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/where-are-the-minority-professors

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/08/22/study-finds-gains-faculty-diversity-not-tenure-track

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Educators are fat-cat elitists one minute and then impoverished servants the next. Reality is somewhere in between, of course. Regardless, we generally treat everyone in education like crap.

As a parent I want to be treated as a valued client at places like admitted students day. I went to several and was glad to see most of the schools did a great job of that except for one of my kids top picks. My kid can't decide between 2 schools and the better school treated the parents like high schoolers at admitted students day. It was a well rated slac and I was stunned by their cluelessness.

I also don't understand the crappy accommodations and infrastructure problems I've seen at some of the schools that have huge endowments. To me that indicates a lack of respect for the students.

I also expect my kid to have decent teachers for the money but am not expecting anything to be spoon fed.

[Anonymous]

I think most people are missing the biggest disconnect in understanding how universities function.

Parents and students feel that they have a paying customer relationship with professors. Hence the attitude that “My tuition money pays your salary” They view teaching as the professors primary responsibility.

For most professors teaching is not the most important part of their job description - research is. Publishing and research is how professors keep their department rank - and this is what determines the university’s rank in their field. Faculty Raises, promotions and tenure are primarily a function of research quality. Teaching has very little impact on salary and promotion. There are countless tenured profs with terrible teaching evaluation. Professors with excellent teaching evaluations and terrible research get fired.

As long as parents want their kid to go to the “highest ranked” colleges without understanding what this means, there will continue to be this disconnect.