Spin-off "The student as a paying customer"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well this gets to be more of a problem when schools charge so much. $75k all in for a year of school is insanely expensive for most people. It's only natural that they're going to want something tangible back for that type of money.

Turns out that there is some point where an intangible idea like "you must have learned something" isn't going to cut it for the kind of money they're demanding. It's the schools own fault, imo.

I say this as someone with no skin (no kids, no plans to have them, graduated long ago with no loans) in the game btw.

...but the professors literally have z e r o control over that.

They go along with it though. They're complicit in a corrupt system. They're not idiots, they must see where this is going.

You think it's going to get any better when they're charging 100k a year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well this gets to be more of a problem when schools charge so much. $75k all in for a year of school is insanely expensive for most people. It's only natural that they're going to want something tangible back for that type of money.

Turns out that there is some point where an intangible idea like "you must have learned something" isn't going to cut it for the kind of money they're demanding. It's the schools own fault, imo.

I say this as someone with no skin (no kids, no plans to have them, graduated long ago with no loans) in the game btw.

I completely agree with this. If universities are going to charge crippling tuition that will impact these students the rest of.tbeir lives with loans, they *should* act like customers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well this gets to be more of a problem when schools charge so much. $75k all in for a year of school is insanely expensive for most people. It's only natural that they're going to want something tangible back for that type of money.

Turns out that there is some point where an intangible idea like "you must have learned something" isn't going to cut it for the kind of money they're demanding. It's the schools own fault, imo.

I say this as someone with no skin (no kids, no plans to have them, graduated long ago with no loans) in the game btw.

...but the professors literally have z e r o control over that.

Too bad so sad, IMO. Professors are part of the system and therefore are part of what students are buying.

Frankly -- and I say this as someone who is in an academic family -- I think more and more families should be deeply questioning the value they are getting. They should be acting like consumers. I think the academic attitude that people should just hand over life-crippling amount of money without being demanding about what they are getting to be appalling.

You don't want to be questioned? Have more control? Go teach at community college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This attitude seems to cut right to the heart of a very entitled generation.
The student is a paying customer for dorms and food, yes! The actual education, is NOT a commodity. "I paid 3k for this chemistry class and I still got a D, I should pass because I paid". I am former faulty, and I got so fed up with kids who expected to be spoon fed the answers and information, and won't open their BOOKS . Student: "You didn't tell me this would be on the exam." Me: "Is it in the assigned textbook? Is it in the syllabus?" Back in MY day, I read the entire assigned text! Imagine that! And if I didn't understand the assigned text, I read another text covering the same material. I went to lectures, and talked to TAs as needed.
I know some people may say "Why go to college if I can just read the book?" The value added is from faculty helping you understand concepts, or correlate the material to other disciplines, from having peers to spark discussions.
Sheesh

Sorry, professor. Long gone are the days where a year of college could be paid with some summer job. Undergrad is $28,000-78,000 per year. You Ivory Tower bureaucrats are living high on the hog in your bubble, most of you contribute literally nothing to society and just exist to exploit families. That's just the truth. College has become a very expensive racket.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This attitude seems to cut right to the heart of a very entitled generation.
The student is a paying customer for dorms and food, yes! The actual education, is NOT a commodity. "I paid 3k for this chemistry class and I still got a D, I should pass because I paid". I am former faulty, and I got so fed up with kids who expected to be spoon fed the answers and information, and won't open their BOOKS . Student: "You didn't tell me this would be on the exam." Me: "Is it in the assigned textbook? Is it in the syllabus?" Back in MY day, I read the entire assigned text! Imagine that! And if I didn't understand the assigned text, I read another text covering the same material. I went to lectures, and talked to TAs as needed.
I know some people may say "Why go to college if I can just read the book?" The value added is from faculty helping you understand concepts, or correlate the material to other disciplines, from having peers to spark discussions.
Sheesh

Sorry, professor. Long gone are the days where a year of college could be paid with some summer job. Undergrad is $28,000-78,000 per year. You Ivory Tower bureaucrats are living high on the hog in your bubble, most of you contribute literally nothing to society and just exist to exploit families. That's just the truth. College has become a very expensive racket.

Wow! Truth be told. Thank you!!
It IS a racket, and it will come crashing down.

[Anonymous]

I am a parent. I am far from the 1%. My zip code is very low income.
I want my child to attend college to develop the right habits of the mind (questioning, reflecting, using logic and gaining new perspectives and insights). I am readying myself to take on debt to pay for my child to attend yet I do not view my child or myself as entering a consumer relationship. I want my child to bring all effort and interest and engage with the opportunity. I also hope for Professors who will enlighten and inspire my child to go deeper, think with more precision and introduce ideas and concepts which can be relied on to provide some sense of meaning/purpose to my child’s future life choices.
I suppose I am ready to view the challenges (small dorm room, shared showers, meh food choices) as an opportunity for those students to learn to cope. I welcome the guidance (such as reminders to interact with professionals in a professional manner) my child may receive from instructors or admins or other campus staff. Tuition, room, board, travel, dorm supplies, etc etc etc are all daunting expenses. I am certain there are other ways to hone ones mind than a college degree, yet the whole college experience and sequence of courses will likely cost less (time, heartache, wandering and making poor choices) than getting those eventual benefits via a ‘real world experiences‘ education would.
I myself went the real world route...and don’t recommend it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This attitude seems to cut right to the heart of a very entitled generation.
The student is a paying customer for dorms and food, yes! The actual education, is NOT a commodity. "I paid 3k for this chemistry class and I still got a D, I should pass because I paid". I am former faulty, and I got so fed up with kids who expected to be spoon fed the answers and information, and won't open their BOOKS . Student: "You didn't tell me this would be on the exam." Me: "Is it in the assigned textbook? Is it in the syllabus?" Back in MY day, I read the entire assigned text! Imagine that! And if I didn't understand the assigned text, I read another text covering the same material. I went to lectures, and talked to TAs as needed.
I know some people may say "Why go to college if I can just read the book?" The value added is from faculty helping you understand concepts, or correlate the material to other disciplines, from having peers to spark discussions.
Sheesh

Sorry, professor. Long gone are the days where a year of college could be paid with some summer job. Undergrad is $28,000-78,000 per year. You Ivory Tower bureaucrats are living high on the hog in your bubble, most of you contribute literally nothing to society and just exist to exploit families. That's just the truth. College has become a very expensive racket.

Not true. Tenure-track professors in my field start off making 60-80K while being expected to publish prolifically and bring extramural funding to the university from NIH and elsewhere. Maybe it’s a racket for some higher-ups, but not for most of your kid’s professors.

[Anonymous]

A comment from an international student I knew once, who told me university in his country was free, and therefore regarded as a privilege, while he saw U.S. students regarding themselves as employers of their professors. Not endorsing or disagreeing, but that was his perception.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This attitude seems to cut right to the heart of a very entitled generation.
The student is a paying customer for dorms and food, yes! The actual education, is NOT a commodity. "I paid 3k for this chemistry class and I still got a D, I should pass because I paid". I am former faulty, and I got so fed up with kids who expected to be spoon fed the answers and information, and won't open their BOOKS . Student: "You didn't tell me this would be on the exam." Me: "Is it in the assigned textbook? Is it in the syllabus?" Back in MY day, I read the entire assigned text! Imagine that! And if I didn't understand the assigned text, I read another text covering the same material. I went to lectures, and talked to TAs as needed.
I know some people may say "Why go to college if I can just read the book?" The value added is from faculty helping you understand concepts, or correlate the material to other disciplines, from having peers to spark discussions.
Sheesh

Sorry, professor. Long gone are the days where a year of college could be paid with some summer job. Undergrad is $28,000-78,000 per year. You Ivory Tower bureaucrats are living high on the hog in your bubble, most of you contribute literally nothing to society and just exist to exploit families. That's just the truth. College has become a very expensive racket.

Not true. Tenure-track professors in my field start off making 60-80K while being expected to publish prolifically and bring extramural funding to the university from NIH and elsewhere. Maybe it’s a racket for some higher-ups, but not for most of your kid’s professors.

That doesn't count the lifetime benefits most tenured professors get, and tenured salaries are much higher than 60-80k. It is a racket.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This attitude seems to cut right to the heart of a very entitled generation.
The student is a paying customer for dorms and food, yes! The actual education, is NOT a commodity. "I paid 3k for this chemistry class and I still got a D, I should pass because I paid". I am former faulty, and I got so fed up with kids who expected to be spoon fed the answers and information, and won't open their BOOKS . Student: "You didn't tell me this would be on the exam." Me: "Is it in the assigned textbook? Is it in the syllabus?" Back in MY day, I read the entire assigned text! Imagine that! And if I didn't understand the assigned text, I read another text covering the same material. I went to lectures, and talked to TAs as needed.
I know some people may say "Why go to college if I can just read the book?" The value added is from faculty helping you understand concepts, or correlate the material to other disciplines, from having peers to spark discussions.
Sheesh

Sorry, professor. Long gone are the days where a year of college could be paid with some summer job. Undergrad is $28,000-78,000 per year. You Ivory Tower bureaucrats are living high on the hog in your bubble, most of you contribute literally nothing to society and just exist to exploit families. That's just the truth. College has become a very expensive racket.

Not true. Tenure-track professors in my field start off making 60-80K while being expected to publish prolifically and bring extramural funding to the university from NIH and elsewhere. Maybe it’s a racket for some higher-ups, but not for most of your kid’s professors.

That doesn't count the lifetime benefits most tenured professors get, and tenured salaries are much higher than 60-80k. It is a racket.

The average tenured professor salary is $84,470. Weird definition of "much higher," but okay.

Only about 1/4 of faculty positions are tenure-track, and tenure is being phased out.

- https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Tenure_Professor/Salary
- https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/10/12/about-three-quarters-all-faculty-positions-are-tenure-track-according-new-aaup ["About three-quarters of all faculty positions are off the tenure track, according to new AAUP analysis."]
- https://chroniclevitae.com/news/1482-how-hard-is-it-to-get-tenure

[Anonymous]

Educators are fat-cat elitists one minute and then impoverished servants the next. Reality is somewhere in between, of course. Regardless, we generally treat everyone in education like crap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like some college professors do not know how to teach.
Unclear instructions, professor who does not explain clearly, unorganized and sloppy

Yes, for the price we are paying we should expect more from them.

You should absolutely expect a Professor who explains material clearly and who is organized. What you are not entitled to however is a Professor who spoon feeds your child and teaches to the test. The goal should be to teach and train your child to work independently, to understand material and make connections to other disciplines and to the real world. The class is not a recipe with step by step instructions on how to do well on the examination. The exam is testing whether you have understood the material and can apply that knowledge in different and sometimes new ways. A student who can rise to this challenge will be better prepared for life after college because their employers will not provide them with grading rubrics that are as long as the assignments!

[Anonymous]

I am an older grad student. I was contacted 2 hours before papers were due by a young student who asked me to tell him what I am doing and what I am writing. I thought it was just for one assignment that Prof put me in charge of undergrads... but nope, e-mailed me for the next three assignments as well, and truly pestered me. I noticed that kid was rarely in class!

[Anonymous]

Older student here again. But, side question. I have a Prof that will give edits on papers and then we have next draft... what am I to think of this Prof who will literary rewrite my sentence(not content, just phrasing) and then I will put his sentence into next draft thinking that is what he thinks sounds better, and he will rip to shreds that sentence telling me it makes no sense?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Older student here again. But, side question. I have a Prof that will give edits on papers and then we have next draft... what am I to think of this Prof who will literary rewrite my sentence(not content, just phrasing) and then I will put his sentence into next draft thinking that is what he thinks sounds better, and he will rip to shreds that sentence telling me it makes no sense?

Hmmm... I had a boss like this. It was maddening.