Getting into top 20 college is nearly impossible without

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, URM = shoe in is incorrect. People don't realize that these days the applicant pool at most top schools is one where white applicants are not a majority. Brown's 2021 applicant profile (http://www.browndailyherald.com/2017/03/21/class-2021-applicant-profile/) is 9% Black- that's nearly 3000 black student applicants. Brown's admit profile looks around 11% African American, so less than 300 black students are getting in and nearly 2700 are getting denied.

Some top colleges post their black student acceptance rates here: https://www.jbhe.com/2017/01/black-first-year-students-at-the-nations-leading-research-universities-2016/ It's no where near 100% for any of them. And even for the missing ones, if you use the overall yields to extrapolate acceptances (Columbia overall yield = 65%, 176 enrolled black students = 271 admitted, black acceptance rate = 5.8%) you'll see that there's barely a boost, if any.

That 5.8% acceptance rate would be more like 1.8% without the URM hook.

And still your non-URM kid would still have a low probability of getting in.

It would be a more fair system without all these preferences and hooks.

System will never be fair as long as money and prestige is involved. This includes sports, endowments, etc.

[Anonymous]

The UMC white person anxiety on this thread is HEAVY.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they're a URM, they're a shoo-in, even without great grades.

Nope. Wrong. You can see on the common data sets that the majority of kids accepted are in the top 10% of their class. These schools are not taking mediocre URM students, they are taking the cream of the crop.

Except that non-URMS have to be in the top 1% of their class as opposed to the top 10%.

So what...there are more non-URMS competing against each other and therefore the competition is harder.

Good rationalization.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they're a URM, they're a shoo-in, even without great grades.

This is wrong.

Harvard admitted 2,056 applicants this year - of those admitted, 14.6 percent were African-American. That's 300 students. 300 African-Americans in the entire US of A were admitted by Harvard last year.

How many of them were recruited athletes? According to the NY Times, HYP admit about 200 recruited athletes over 35 sports each year. Let's guess that 20 percent of those athletes are African-American - that's 40 students. So now we're down to 260 African-American students who were admitted to Harvard last year. How many of them are legacy kids? The Crimson reported that 30 percent of the Class of 2021 were legacy students. If the African-American legacy enrollment rate is even only half that of the entire Class, that would be another 39 kids.

At that point, you're looking at 221 African-Americans admitted who are neither athletes nor legacy. Hardly a shoo-in.

What I have seen, as others have mentioned, is that to get into HYP you have to have impeccable credentials, and then something extra. For African-Americans, that something extra is their URM status - but only if they're in that 4.0, 1550, strong extracurricular category. For others, that something extra might be a national award, or whatever. And if you have the impeccable everything, but not the something extra, then you end up at Duke or Brown or Penn.

There might not be 300 URM kids in the US that have those stats. Only a couple of hundred AA kids each year score above 750 on either section, you would need both above that. I looked at ACT scores for AA kids a few years back and there were 31 AA kids who scored 35 and above on the ACT. Good but not great credentials will get an AA kid into an Ivy League school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they're a URM, they're a shoo-in, even without great grades.

Nope. Wrong. You can see on the common data sets that the majority of kids accepted are in the top 10% of their class. These schools are not taking mediocre URM students, they are taking the cream of the crop.

Not from prep schools - the URMs that get into the ivies are not top 10%

[Anonymous]

Is this news?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If they're a URM, they're a shoo-in, even without great grades.

Yes, this explains why URMs are the majority at all the colleges especially at HYPS, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they're a URM, they're a shoo-in, even without great grades.

Yes, this explains why URMs are the majority at all the colleges especially at HYPS, etc.

They may be the majority among the bottom 20% at those schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they're a URM, they're a shoo-in, even without great grades.

This is wrong.

Harvard admitted 2,056 applicants this year - of those admitted, 14.6 percent were African-American. That's 300 students. 300 African-Americans in the entire US of A were admitted by Harvard last year.

How many of them were recruited athletes? According to the NY Times, HYP admit about 200 recruited athletes over 35 sports each year. Let's guess that 20 percent of those athletes are African-American - that's 40 students. So now we're down to 260 African-American students who were admitted to Harvard last year. How many of them are legacy kids? The Crimson reported that 30 percent of the Class of 2021 were legacy students. If the African-American legacy enrollment rate is even only half that of the entire Class, that would be another 39 kids.

At that point, you're looking at 221 African-Americans admitted who are neither athletes nor legacy. Hardly a shoo-in.

What I have seen, as others have mentioned, is that to get into HYP you have to have impeccable credentials, and then something extra. For African-Americans, that something extra is their URM status - but only if they're in that 4.0, 1550, strong extracurricular category. For others, that something extra might be a national award, or whatever. And if you have the impeccable everything, but not the something extra, then you end up at Duke or Brown or Penn.

There might not be 300 URM kids in the US that have those stats. Only a couple of hundred AA kids each year score above 750 on either section, you would need both above that. I looked at ACT scores for AA kids a few years back and there were 31 AA kids who scored 35 and above on the ACT. Good but not great credentials will get an AA kid into an Ivy League school.

The only credential you are talking about is test scores. They have the grades and wait for it...they are interesting kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they're a URM, they're a shoo-in, even without great grades.

This is wrong.

Harvard admitted 2,056 applicants this year - of those admitted, 14.6 percent were African-American. That's 300 students. 300 African-Americans in the entire US of A were admitted by Harvard last year.

How many of them were recruited athletes? According to the NY Times, HYP admit about 200 recruited athletes over 35 sports each year. Let's guess that 20 percent of those athletes are African-American - that's 40 students. So now we're down to 260 African-American students who were admitted to Harvard last year. How many of them are legacy kids? The Crimson reported that 30 percent of the Class of 2021 were legacy students. If the African-American legacy enrollment rate is even only half that of the entire Class, that would be another 39 kids.

At that point, you're looking at 221 African-Americans admitted who are neither athletes nor legacy. Hardly a shoo-in.

What I have seen, as others have mentioned, is that to get into HYP you have to have impeccable credentials, and then something extra. For African-Americans, that something extra is their URM status - but only if they're in that 4.0, 1550, strong extracurricular category. For others, that something extra might be a national award, or whatever. And if you have the impeccable everything, but not the something extra, then you end up at Duke or Brown or Penn.

There might not be 300 URM kids in the US that have those stats. Only a couple of hundred AA kids each year score above 750 on either section, you would need both above that. I looked at ACT scores for AA kids a few years back and there were 31 AA kids who scored 35 and above on the ACT. Good but not great credentials will get an AA kid into an Ivy League school.

There are also many white kids that get into HYP with scores of 32-33. The only population that would be majority 35 and above is Asian.

[Anonymous]

It just seems so unfair to me that some parents are spending a lot of money for college counselors to package their kids for acceptance into college.
Just wondering if this really gives them any advantage over the rest of our kids - or if the admission committees can spot these applicants ans that is why the counselors are bemoaning the low acceptance rates for their clients. If our kids stats were golden (including a major talent) why would we need you anyway?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The UMC white person anxiety on this thread is HEAVY.

As an MC Asian parent, I would give anything to be in a White person's shoes because it is even more difficult for Asians and we have to outscore Whites too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It just seems so unfair to me that some parents are spending a lot of money for college counselors to package their kids for acceptance into college.
Just wondering if this really gives them any advantage over the rest of our kids - or if the admission committees can spot these applicants ans that is why the counselors are bemoaning the low acceptance rates for their clients. If our kids stats were golden (including a major talent) why would we need you anyway?

I don’t think college counselors are getting kids into HYPS. What they probably are doing is encouraging families to consider early apps to other t10 or t20 schools as an alternative to an unhooked SCEA app. And finding LACs and other schools where full pay and high stats are a winning combination or where ther3 is merit money available.

Personally as a white UMC parent, I’ve got no problem with a system in which only truly exceptional kids get into top colleges. (That said, I don’t think that’s what we have — money, power & fame play too big a role). And as a former prof and alumn interviewer, I can tell you that high standardized test scores and a high GPA aren’t any indication that a student is really talented. Standardized tests set a low and arbitrary bar and the level of work that gets a student an A varies wildly by school/class. “Perfect” stats may show discipline (internally or externally imposed), but they aren’t a sign of brilliance. The good news is if your truly brilliant kid doesn’t get into HYPS, s/he will still be truly brilliant and there are so many other excellent universities where s/he can flourish. I’ll also add that a diverse student body benefits everyone at the school and that it has *never* been my experience (teaching/studying in 4 top tier schools) that URM students were underqualified or less capable than their white classmates. (Athletes, on the other hand....)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The UMC white person anxiety on this thread is HEAVY.

As an MC Asian parent, I would give anything to be in a White person's shoes because it is even more difficult for Asians and we have to outscore Whites too.

Yeah, that sucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just seems so unfair to me that some parents are spending a lot of money for college counselors to package their kids for acceptance into college.
Just wondering if this really gives them any advantage over the rest of our kids - or if the admission committees can spot these applicants ans that is why the counselors are bemoaning the low acceptance rates for their clients. If our kids stats were golden (including a major talent) why would we need you anyway?

I don’t think college counselors are getting kids into HYPS. What they probably are doing is encouraging families to consider early apps to other t10 or t20 schools as an alternative to an unhooked SCEA app. And finding LACs and other schools where full pay and high stats are a winning combination or where ther3 is merit money available.

Personally as a white UMC parent, I’ve got no problem with a system in which only truly exceptional kids get into top colleges. (That said, I don’t think that’s what we have — money, power & fame play too big a role). And as a former prof and alumn interviewer, I can tell you that high standardized test scores and a high GPA aren’t any indication that a student is really talented. Standardized tests set a low and arbitrary bar and the level of work that gets a student an A varies wildly by school/class. “Perfect” stats may show discipline (internally or externally imposed), but they aren’t a sign of brilliance. The good news is if your truly brilliant kid doesn’t get into HYPS, s/he will still be truly brilliant and there are so many other excellent universities where s/he can flourish. I’ll also add that a diverse student body benefits everyone at the school and that it has *never* been my experience (teaching/studying in 4 top tier schools) that URM students were underqualified or less capable than their white classmates. (Athletes, on the other hand....)

Do you mean URM athletes or all athletes?