Getting into top 20 college is nearly impossible without

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:LOL @ fake template websites (nobody visits). Also LOL @ "created an app!" (nobody ever downloaded or used).

The helicopter-parents / consultant-guided scams are so obvious.

Yes, but do the school figure this out or do they fall for it? I read a fascinating article about a consultant in Silicon Valley somewhere that for $40K would guarantee your kids would get into certain schools. He set up his own charity the the kids worked for, etc. It was disgusting to me (and I could actually afford to pay that if I believed in it). I just wondered if the schools get it that the kids are being molded and guided (more than guided, really) like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Or be black

Bigot

nt

How can it be bigotry if it is a fact and true? We have 'B' students in our prep school going to ivies due to being URM or athlete. B student URM soccer player recruited to Harvard - was he good enough to play pro? No. Students recruited to Yale getting tutoring in basic math classes during the summer. If people knew all that goes on w the ivies, they won't bother wasting their time to apply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:LOL @ fake template websites (nobody visits). Also LOL @ "created an app!" (nobody ever downloaded or used).

The helicopter-parents / consultant-guided scams are so obvious.

My kid made an app when he was 12, and another when he was 14. He didn't use one of those app templates. Instead he spent 2-3 months watching some guy from NUU who had a free online course on the programming languages he needed (I think C++ and two other languages?). He also built other stuff during high school. Trust me, XDH and I don't have a clue about this stuff.

Did people buy the app? Not outside his family and friends. Did it get him into his first choice college? Nope.

Oh well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Or be black

Bigot

nt

How can it be bigotry if it is a fact and true? We have 'B' students in our prep school going to ivies due to being URM or athlete. B student URM soccer player recruited to Harvard - was he good enough to play pro? No. Students recruited to Yale getting tutoring in basic math classes during the summer. If people knew all that goes on w the ivies, they won't bother wasting their time to apply.

I'm all for affirmative action and the examples above don't bother me in the least.

What bothers me is savvy families who game the system. The one kid I know at Stanford is 1/4 black + American Indian, and 3/4 white. I've seen the grandparents. Otherwise the kid isn't much different from all the other smart-but-not-brilliant over-achievers in this area. The parents are highly educated and hold really well-paying jobs, and knew how to do this. That's not what affirmative action's about, folks. (Before anybody asks, neither of my kids applied to Stanford.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Or be black

Bigot

nt

How can it be bigotry if it is a fact and true? We have 'B' students in our prep school going to ivies due to being URM or athlete. B student URM soccer player recruited to Harvard - was he good enough to play pro? No. Students recruited to Yale getting tutoring in basic math classes during the summer. If people knew all that goes on w the ivies, they won't bother wasting their time to apply.

I'm all for affirmative action and the examples above don't bother me in the least.

What bothers me is savvy families who game the system. The one kid I know at Stanford is 1/4 black + American Indian, and 3/4 white. I've seen the grandparents. Otherwise the kid isn't much different from all the other smart-but-not-brilliant over-achievers in this area. The parents are highly educated and hold really well-paying jobs, and knew how to do this. That's not what affirmative action's about, folks. (Before anybody asks, neither of my kids applied to Stanford.)

It's even worse when you have American born white kids who may have grandparents from Spain who are entitled to claim, and do claim, to be Hispanic to give them an edge on college admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Or be black

Bigot

nt

How can it be bigotry if it is a fact and true? We have 'B' students in our prep school going to ivies due to being URM or athlete. B student URM soccer player recruited to Harvard - was he good enough to play pro? No. Students recruited to Yale getting tutoring in basic math classes during the summer. If people knew all that goes on w the ivies, they won't bother wasting their time to apply.

I'm all for affirmative action and the examples above don't bother me in the least.

What bothers me is savvy families who game the system. The one kid I know at Stanford is 1/4 black + American Indian, and 3/4 white. I've seen the grandparents. Otherwise the kid isn't much different from all the other smart-but-not-brilliant over-achievers in this area. The parents are highly educated and hold really well-paying jobs, and knew how to do this. That's not what affirmative action's about, folks. (Before anybody asks, neither of my kids applied to Stanford.)

It's even worse when you have American born white kids who may have grandparents from Spain who are entitled to claim, and do claim, to be Hispanic to give them an edge on college admissions.

Affirmative action where it benefits the black professionals whose kids don't work as hard knowing they have an advantage? Why don't we have affirmative action for the POOR? I wouldn't have a problem w a ECONOMIC Affirmative action. Get rid of legacies, $$$$$, URMS, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the resent at preferences for URMs. It's not like white people aren't favored in everything!

Because if an exceptional URM got a spot then that spot should have gone to their mediocre white kid. It's never mediocre white kid with the grandparents who donate $2 million a year that "stole" the seat, just the exceptional URMs who make up 10 percent of the student body.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they're a URM, they're a shoo-in, even without great grades.

This is wrong.

Harvard admitted 2,056 applicants this year - of those admitted, 14.6 percent were African-American. That's 300 students. 300 African-Americans in the entire US of A were admitted by Harvard last year.

How many of them were recruited athletes? According to the NY Times, HYP admit about 200 recruited athletes over 35 sports each year. Let's guess that 20 percent of those athletes are African-American - that's 40 students. So now we're down to 260 African-American students who were admitted to Harvard last year. How many of them are legacy kids? The Crimson reported that 30 percent of the Class of 2021 were legacy students. If the African-American legacy enrollment rate is even only half that of the entire Class, that would be another 39 kids.

At that point, you're looking at 221 African-Americans admitted who are neither athletes nor legacy. Hardly a shoo-in.

What I have seen, as others have mentioned, is that to get into HYP you have to have impeccable credentials, and then something extra. For African-Americans, that something extra is their URM status - but only if they're in that 4.0, 1550, strong extracurricular category. For others, that something extra might be a national award, or whatever. And if you have the impeccable everything, but not the something extra, then you end up at Duke or Brown or Penn.

There might not be 300 URM kids in the US that have those stats. Only a couple of hundred AA kids each year score above 750 on either section, you would need both above that. I looked at ACT scores for AA kids a few years back and there were 31 AA kids who scored 35 and above on the ACT. Good but not great credentials will get an AA kid into an Ivy League school.

There are also many white kids that get into HYP with scores of 32-33. The only population that would be majority 35 and above is Asian.

From Naviance data I can tell you that this is not remotely true. Without a 34+ you don't have a prayer.

I can't stand it when people spew misinformation. From our school's Naviance it tells you the low average and high ACT score for students admitted across the country. Here is the breakdown of the average score:

ACT scores national average (according to Naviance):

Harvard - 33
Yale - 33
Princeton - 33
Stanford - 32
Brown - 31

Naviance also gives you the low, average and high scores across the middle 50%. You don't have to pay attention to the BS people say on here. If your kid has scores in the middle 50% and has a distinct passion and something to say, they should apply.

Our school, comprised of mostly highly educated families, also showed on Naviance that you need at least a 1500+ on the SAT to be admitted to the types of schools listed above. When we would point out an exception, the counselor would make it clear that was a special case, and not one that applied to our exceptional but not exceptional DS. Brown, for instance, shows on their website that they only admit 7% of applicants with less than a 33 ACT. So sure, apply with your 31 ACT to Brown, but realize you are likely wasting your time and far more likely to go to Bard than Brown. (The exception would be if you are in a school where a 31 is the highest score around -- most likely a school with a less affluent population, and yay for those kids). Time is short senior year, and it is better to have a realistic idea of what is possible and not spend too much time chasing the very unlikely.

I was refuting the person who said you don't have a prayer with lower than 34. 7% is more than 0%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to debunk this so hard because I've written about this before, but I have a DD at Stanford and she's about as normal as they come. People were shocked when she got in, her counselor told her she had a snow ball's chance in hell and almost refused to do the damn paperwork for the application, but they were wrong and so are a lot of you.

DD was a good student with a decent, but not crazy GPA. Her SAT scores were good, but seriously in line with plenty of people's who were rejected based on her schools scattercram. She's was basically around the in-pool for UVA. She did zero extra-circulars. And I mean, zero.

Her interest was shopping, fashion, and make up. She was a crazy online shopper, she had a website about make-up and fashion, she worked at a make up store, was crazy about the beauty industry and online shopping. She had an interest in STEM and talked about ideas she wanted to pursue and why she thought her view and perspective was different. She wrote her essay about merchandising, consumer trends, and how stores and websites drive people to choose certain things. It's basically what led her to studying a STEM based program and working at a large online retailer last summer. She wasn't hooked.

I do think there's an element of randomness, but I also think a compelling story and interest tied can sometimes make someone stand out.

That just sent my BS meter off. Sure sounds like you wrote her essays.

PP here. You can guess away, but no, I didn't write her essay. I didn't even care/know about her STEM interests beyond knowing that she did a shopping/styling website.

What I was trying to explain is the whole craziness that drives the DC area is pointless. These types of schools can pick plenty of kids with perfect scores and achievements. It's not as important as encouraging your kid to pursue their own interests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to debunk this so hard because I've written about this before, but I have a DD at Stanford and she's about as normal as they come. People were shocked when she got in, her counselor told her she had a snow ball's chance in hell and almost refused to do the damn paperwork for the application, but they were wrong and so are a lot of you.

DD was a good student with a decent, but not crazy GPA. Her SAT scores were good, but seriously in line with plenty of people's who were rejected based on her schools scattercram. She's was basically around the in-pool for UVA. She did zero extra-circulars. And I mean, zero.

Her interest was shopping, fashion, and make up. She was a crazy online shopper, she had a website about make-up and fashion, she worked at a make up store, was crazy about the beauty industry and online shopping. She had an interest in STEM and talked about ideas she wanted to pursue and why she thought her view and perspective was different. She wrote her essay about merchandising, consumer trends, and how stores and websites drive people to choose certain things. It's basically what led her to studying a STEM based program and working at a large online retailer last summer. She wasn't hooked.

I do think there's an element of randomness, but I also think a compelling story and interest tied can sometimes make someone stand out.

That just sent my BS meter off. Sure sounds like you wrote her essays.

PP here. You can guess away, but no, I didn't write her essay. I didn't even care/know about her STEM interests beyond knowing that she did a shopping/styling website.

What I was trying to explain is the whole craziness that drives the DC area is pointless. These types of schools can pick plenty of kids with perfect scores and achievements. It's not as important as encouraging your kid to pursue their own interests.

Bust you said you disagreed with OP's point then went on to completely validate and conform it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to debunk this so hard because I've written about this before, but I have a DD at Stanford and she's about as normal as they come. People were shocked when she got in, her counselor told her she had a snow ball's chance in hell and almost refused to do the damn paperwork for the application, but they were wrong and so are a lot of you.

DD was a good student with a decent, but not crazy GPA. Her SAT scores were good, but seriously in line with plenty of people's who were rejected based on her schools scattercram. She's was basically around the in-pool for UVA. She did zero extra-circulars. And I mean, zero.

Her interest was shopping, fashion, and make up. She was a crazy online shopper, she had a website about make-up and fashion, she worked at a make up store, was crazy about the beauty industry and online shopping. She had an interest in STEM and talked about ideas she wanted to pursue and why she thought her view and perspective was different. She wrote her essay about merchandising, consumer trends, and how stores and websites drive people to choose certain things. It's basically what led her to studying a STEM based program and working at a large online retailer last summer. She wasn't hooked.

I do think there's an element of randomness, but I also think a compelling story and interest tied can sometimes make someone stand out.

That just sent my BS meter off. Sure sounds like you wrote her essays.

PP here. You can guess away, but no, I didn't write her essay. I didn't even care/know about her STEM interests beyond knowing that she did a shopping/styling website.

What I was trying to explain is the whole craziness that drives the DC area is pointless. These types of schools can pick plenty of kids with perfect scores and achievements. It's not as important as encouraging your kid to pursue their own interests.

Bust you said you disagreed with OP's point then went on to completely validate and conform it.

but, confirm -- sorry for the typos

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to debunk this so hard because I've written about this before, but I have a DD at Stanford and she's about as normal as they come. People were shocked when she got in, her counselor told her she had a snow ball's chance in hell and almost refused to do the damn paperwork for the application, but they were wrong and so are a lot of you.

DD was a good student with a decent, but not crazy GPA. Her SAT scores were good, but seriously in line with plenty of people's who were rejected based on her schools scattercram. She's was basically around the in-pool for UVA. She did zero extra-circulars. And I mean, zero.

Her interest was shopping, fashion, and make up. She was a crazy online shopper, she had a website about make-up and fashion, she worked at a make up store, was crazy about the beauty industry and online shopping. She had an interest in STEM and talked about ideas she wanted to pursue and why she thought her view and perspective was different. She wrote her essay about merchandising, consumer trends, and how stores and websites drive people to choose certain things. It's basically what led her to studying a STEM based program and working at a large online retailer last summer. She wasn't hooked.

I do think there's an element of randomness, but I also think a compelling story and interest tied can sometimes make someone stand out.

That just sent my BS meter off. Sure sounds like you wrote her essays.

PP here. You can guess away, but no, I didn't write her essay. I didn't even care/know about her STEM interests beyond knowing that she did a shopping/styling website.

What I was trying to explain is the whole craziness that drives the DC area is pointless. These types of schools can pick plenty of kids with perfect scores and achievements. It's not as important as encouraging your kid to pursue their own interests.

Bust you said you disagreed with OP's point then went on to completely validate and conform it.

but, confirm -- sorry for the typos

I do disagree. It's not about academic awards or what you do in school so much as it is about finding your interests and being willing to march to the beat of your own drummer even if that means you're not involved at school in anything. My kid did zero school activities, she won no awards, her teachers pretty much thought she was a bright enough kid, but not the type they would see getting into a school like Stanford. But she did and she's doing well there because she's driven by her own interests, she's not trying to grab some sort of brass ring of achievement, she's doing what she wants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in secondary education. I know a white girl who got into an Ivy for soccer the summer after 9th grade. She's no genius. I also have a black football player who has offers from a few Ivies and he's a nice kid, but a legit idiot.

Wait, how is this new info?

To the OP, someone actually does get in. URM, athlete, legacy are hooks we would all LOVE to have.

I just wonder where a top Ivy can hide dummy athletes? I don't think any Ivies have remedial coursework like public Us offer. And a football player at an Ivy isn't leaving early to go pro, they have to hide these kids in classes for the full 4 years.

And the 9th grader getting into an Ivy two years before coach or admissions sees her SAT? Explain THAT.

I went to law school at a big football school ... guess who tutors the athletes? I imagine there are similar tutoring gigs at Ivy schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to debunk this so hard because I've written about this before, but I have a DD at Stanford and she's about as normal as they come. People were shocked when she got in, her counselor told her she had a snow ball's chance in hell and almost refused to do the damn paperwork for the application, but they were wrong and so are a lot of you.

DD was a good student with a decent, but not crazy GPA. Her SAT scores were good, but seriously in line with plenty of people's who were rejected based on her schools scattercram. She's was basically around the in-pool for UVA. She did zero extra-circulars. And I mean, zero.

Her interest was shopping, fashion, and make up. She was a crazy online shopper, she had a website about make-up and fashion, she worked at a make up store, was crazy about the beauty industry and online shopping. She had an interest in STEM and talked about ideas she wanted to pursue and why she thought her view and perspective was different. She wrote her essay about merchandising, consumer trends, and how stores and websites drive people to choose certain things. It's basically what led her to studying a STEM based program and working at a large online retailer last summer. She wasn't hooked.

I do think there's an element of randomness, but I also think a compelling story and interest tied can sometimes make someone stand out.

That just sent my BS meter off. Sure sounds like you wrote her essays.

PP here. You can guess away, but no, I didn't write her essay. I didn't even care/know about her STEM interests beyond knowing that she did a shopping/styling website.

What I was trying to explain is the whole craziness that drives the DC area is pointless. These types of schools can pick plenty of kids with perfect scores and achievements. It's not as important as encouraging your kid to pursue their own interests.

Bust you said you disagreed with OP's point then went on to completely validate and conform it.

but, confirm -- sorry for the typos

I do disagree. It's not about academic awards or what you do in school so much as it is about finding your interests and being willing to march to the beat of your own drummer even if that means you're not involved at school in anything. My kid did zero school activities, she won no awards, her teachers pretty much thought she was a bright enough kid, but not the type they would see getting into a school like Stanford. But she did and she's doing well there because she's driven by her own interests, she's not trying to grab some sort of brass ring of achievement, she's doing what she wants.

Enuf. OP said you won't get in without a special talent. You said you strongly disagreed. Then proceeded to tell how your daughter got in because of .... her special talent. Exactly reinforcing the same point the OP was making.

[Anonymous]

^^ NP I don't think that poster was describing her kids "special talent" just her kids actual work. That is not a "special talent" and you're being truculent, leave it.