Oppositional Defiant Disorder: losing my MIND, need a good thearapist/DX

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, my child was also extremely difficult starting around age 2-3 and really traumatically difficult 4-6. He was similar to yours in that he was fine if he had total control of his environment--in fact he was quite independent and able to entertain himself. He had a great imagination and could be excited and happy to the extreme. But any transition threw him off and he didn't have the resources to deal with the big feelings. He was more of a meltdown kid than a tantrum kid but, like yours, he basically resisted every instruction. It really seemed like he was unable to take input/guidance/suggestions from another person. He was actually much worse at school than yours... he wasn't disruptive but totally self-absorbed and resistant. And unhappy!

We started weekly therapy when he was 4 and did it non-stop year-round until he was 8 or so. He was first diagnosed with generalized anxiety and eventually at age 6 with severe ADHD. I had to work a lot with the therapist myself to understand how to parent my son... and I read pretty much every book suggested in this thread and more. As others have said: TONS of structure, total consistency, simple rules and crystal clear expectations, advanced warning for (each and every!!!) transition--these were all critical and incredibly effective. They seem both "too easy" and like "too much work" ... I rolled my eyes at first and thought alternately "I already do that!" and "I can't give him a warning before every single XYZ" but ... well, we trained ourselves and it was shockingly effective. Basically this, friendly gentle voice: "Son, five minutes till we leave"... "son, one minute till we leave" ... "okay we leave... if any hesitation, immediately pick up kid and go". Gentle advance noticed and absolute enforcement are totally critical--zero negotiation. I had to follow through on EVERY RULE, every warning, and do so immediately. With things clearly more anxiety-based like refusing to go inside a birthday party... you take a different approach. A lot of support, a lot of positive talk, but always challenging kid to complete task. It may feel worse for a few days but it is INCREDIBLY reassuring to an anxious or adhd child to actually know what is coming and then succeed in getting through it. My son hates learning a new routine but once he accepts it, it is very comforting for him!

We have done a lot to work with this kid, but I want to tell you how incredibly worth it all the effort has been. From the beginning, for me, what killed me the most was how deeply unhappy my son was. Like he wasn't being given a chance to have a childhood! I am so relieved and happy to report that he is, at age 12, totally different. Or rather... what we have now is overwhelmingly his positive qualities and rarely the negative ones. But it took a ton of intervention and work from the whole family to get him here... to get him feeling comfortable with himself and happy most of the time. And, probably only you can understand how amazing this is to me, but my child is totally cooperative now. The defiance was so tied into his miserable feelings and unhappiness, his out-of-control feelings and need to regain control. Once he felt better about himself, he was totally receptive to instruction. It is taken years, but he is such a wonderful kid, so empathetic to others, and ... who knows, maybe stronger for his struggles.

Please get help, OP. It will be hard but it will make your life, and that of your child, so much better.

The above is great advice!! We had a similar experience with my son who has ASD. He is now quite flexible with just a little advance notice and sometimes a reminder. Routine is critical and following through is critical. We also found that it was extremely important to explain to him what to do, rather than what not to do and to tell him things rather than ask him. We never say "do you want to shower".. we give an instruction "it is 7 pm, time to get in the shower". The combination of figuring out the issue/diagnosis, therapy and changing our parenting has made all of our lives 1000 times better.

Sending you hugs and wishing you lots of success!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, my child was also extremely difficult starting around age 2-3 and really traumatically difficult 4-6. He was similar to yours in that he was fine if he had total control of his environment--in fact he was quite independent and able to entertain himself. He had a great imagination and could be excited and happy to the extreme. But any transition threw him off and he didn't have the resources to deal with the big feelings. He was more of a meltdown kid than a tantrum kid but, like yours, he basically resisted every instruction. It really seemed like he was unable to take input/guidance/suggestions from another person. He was actually much worse at school than yours... he wasn't disruptive but totally self-absorbed and resistant. And unhappy!

We started weekly therapy when he was 4 and did it non-stop year-round until he was 8 or so. He was first diagnosed with generalized anxiety and eventually at age 6 with severe ADHD. I had to work a lot with the therapist myself to understand how to parent my son... and I read pretty much every book suggested in this thread and more. As others have said: TONS of structure, total consistency, simple rules and crystal clear expectations, advanced warning for (each and every!!!) transition--these were all critical and incredibly effective. They seem both "too easy" and like "too much work" ... I rolled my eyes at first and thought alternately "I already do that!" and "I can't give him a warning before every single XYZ" but ... well, we trained ourselves and it was shockingly effective. Basically this, friendly gentle voice: "Son, five minutes till we leave"... "son, one minute till we leave" ... "okay we leave... if any hesitation, immediately pick up kid and go". Gentle advance noticed and absolute enforcement are totally critical--zero negotiation. I had to follow through on EVERY RULE, every warning, and do so immediately. With things clearly more anxiety-based like refusing to go inside a birthday party... you take a different approach. A lot of support, a lot of positive talk, but always challenging kid to complete task. It may feel worse for a few days but it is INCREDIBLY reassuring to an anxious or adhd child to actually know what is coming and then succeed in getting through it. My son hates learning a new routine but once he accepts it, it is very comforting for him!

We have done a lot to work with this kid, but I want to tell you how incredibly worth it all the effort has been. From the beginning, for me, what killed me the most was how deeply unhappy my son was. Like he wasn't being given a chance to have a childhood! I am so relieved and happy to report that he is, at age 12, totally different. Or rather... what we have now is overwhelmingly his positive qualities and rarely the negative ones. But it took a ton of intervention and work from the whole family to get him here... to get him feeling comfortable with himself and happy most of the time. And, probably only you can understand how amazing this is to me, but my child is totally cooperative now. The defiance was so tied into his miserable feelings and unhappiness, his out-of-control feelings and need to regain control. Once he felt better about himself, he was totally receptive to instruction. It is taken years, but he is such a wonderful kid, so empathetic to others, and ... who knows, maybe stronger for his struggles.

Please get help, OP. It will be hard but it will make your life, and that of your child, so much better.

So much of this post could be me writing about my almost 6 year old boy. It's amazing, and it's wonderful to hear a success story!!!

OP, Kazdin and his methods were really helpful to me when my child was toddler/preschooler age, and right now I'm having the most success w/ the approach of Ross Greene, www.livesinthebalance.org And we are adding in weekly sessions w/ a therapist and will probably incorporate some cognitive behavioral work.

I empathize with where you are. Hang in there!!! I do think there is a very good chance you and your son can find a way to grow through this and come out happier and more confident on the other side. All the very best to you both.

[Anonymous]

As to the posters re FASD - sure, brain encepathly can be caused by that, and lead to ADHD and anxiety and ODD, but its not clear that its fundamentally different than ADHD/anxiety/ODD caused by other types of damage or genetics or what have you. They likely all respond the same way to therapies and interventions. Regardless it would be very rare for ODD to appear alone, without anxiety/sensory issues/ADHD.

[Anonymous]

Consider PCIT (parent-child interaction therapy).

[Anonymous]

Sounds exactly like my son at that age who was eventually diagnosed with OCD. He also was self aware and felt inside something was wrong with the way he was feeling. This made him very open to therapy to get help. He's now an amazing high schooler. Hang in there.

[Anonymous]

Read Dr. Shapiro's book and try to get into one of his Journey classes. If anything else you will meet other local parents and learn some effective strategies.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like my son. We just did the best we could because he was super successful and self motivated at school. He got bored really easily and always argued about everything catat home. At school
He as a leader and an extreme achiever. Things got better at home as long as he was fed and super busy. He also had to be in control with f everything. When he was in high school he found his own therapist he has always been extremely self confident and able to advocate for himself. She helped him a lot. He is now at an Ivy getting straight -
As and belongs to numerous organizations. He is well liked but still needs to be the leader not the follower. He still argues a lot when he comes home. But it's much better than it used to be. I am not suggesting that you son doesn't need help. I am only saying that he may just be a highly driven personality. When young kids are like this the adults around them seem to be standing in their way. BTW my kid d has a super high IQ combined with lots of Physical energy and needs little sleep parenting kids like this can be both rewarding and terrible

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, my child was also extremely difficult starting around age 2-3 and really traumatically difficult 4-6. He was similar to yours in that he was fine if he had total control of his environment--in fact he was quite independent and able to entertain himself. He had a great imagination and could be excited and happy to the extreme. But any transition threw him off and he didn't have the resources to deal with the big feelings. He was more of a meltdown kid than a tantrum kid but, like yours, he basically resisted every instruction. It really seemed like he was unable to take input/guidance/suggestions from another person. He was actually much worse at school than yours... he wasn't disruptive but totally self-absorbed and resistant. And unhappy!

We started weekly therapy when he was 4 and did it non-stop year-round until he was 8 or so. He was first diagnosed with generalized anxiety and eventually at age 6 with severe ADHD. I had to work a lot with the therapist myself to understand how to parent my son... and I read pretty much every book suggested in this thread and more. As others have said: TONS of structure, total consistency, simple rules and crystal clear expectations, advanced warning for (each and every!!!) transition--these were all critical and incredibly effective. They seem both "too easy" and like "too much work" ... I rolled my eyes at first and thought alternately "I already do that!" and "I can't give him a warning before every single XYZ" but ... well, we trained ourselves and it was shockingly effective. Basically this, friendly gentle voice: "Son, five minutes till we leave"... "son, one minute till we leave" ... "okay we leave... if any hesitation, immediately pick up kid and go". Gentle advance noticed and absolute enforcement are totally critical--zero negotiation. I had to follow through on EVERY RULE, every warning, and do so immediately. With things clearly more anxiety-based like refusing to go inside a birthday party... you take a different approach. A lot of support, a lot of positive talk, but always challenging kid to complete task. It may feel worse for a few days but it is INCREDIBLY reassuring to an anxious or adhd child to actually know what is coming and then succeed in getting through it. My son hates learning a new routine but once he accepts it, it is very comforting for him!

We have done a lot to work with this kid, but I want to tell you how incredibly worth it all the effort has been. From the beginning, for me, what killed me the most was how deeply unhappy my son was. Like he wasn't being given a chance to have a childhood! I am so relieved and happy to report that he is, at age 12, totally different. Or rather... what we have now is overwhelmingly his positive qualities and rarely the negative ones. But it took a ton of intervention and work from the whole family to get him here... to get him feeling comfortable with himself and happy most of the time. And, probably only you can understand how amazing this is to me, but my child is totally cooperative now. The defiance was so tied into his miserable feelings and unhappiness, his out-of-control feelings and need to regain control. Once he felt better about himself, he was totally receptive to instruction. It is taken years, but he is such a wonderful kid, so empathetic to others, and ... who knows, maybe stronger for his struggles.

Please get help, OP. It will be hard but it will make your life, and that of your child, so much better.

OP here. THANK YOU so much for this extremely thoughtful post. So much of what you say resonates with me. Even down to the fierce independence and creativity and imagination. My son is a really talentef artist and is always deep involved in some sort of artwork and had always been able to happily play alone. Compared to my other child, his imagination blows me away. Even though right now i feel like we are in a dark pit, there are still so many beautiful qualities he has.

To those of you who recommended the Kazdin book, i purchased it last night on audible and am already 7hrs into the 10hr book. It has inspired me and I've immediately incorporated changes in my reaction to my son. The book has been like a punch to the gut. Everything that worked perfectly with my 1st child has been a miserable failure with my second and what Kazdin says makes so much sense. I feel like this needs to be broken down and tackled one small piece at a time. I feel renewed.

I so desire to transform my relationship with my son and most of all I want him to be happy with himself because when he told me he feels sad inside because hes always mad, that really made me realize there is something much bigger here than a behavior peoblem and the skills i have from first parenting a happy easy going child dors NOT work on my youngest. Looking forward for getring helo for him and us and looking forward to my older child to not have to be exposed to so much turmoil because it saddens me to think that one day they might hate each other.

Anyways, im rambling, but thanks.

Oh and P.S. on the FASD, nice touch!

[Anonymous]

I see different aspects of this in both of mine. My oldest has ASD and absolutely must have routine and predictability. If he's stressed by hunger, lack of sleep, or unpredictability, ODD behaviors start flaring up. He's 9yo now and much more self-aware now. If he's not stressed, he's a delight to be around. He responds best to structure and Dr Greene approach (The Explosive Child).

My younger son is extremely independent and hard-headed. If I tell him to do something, he has to make clear before he does it that he's not doing it just because I said so. Routine helps with him because it let's him be more independent and in control. He responds better to Kazdin approach but any negative feedback backfires since he will double down rather than give in. He does actually want to please, he just has to feel like he's in control of himself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The one key thing is that the behavior is only at home. When the teachers give a demand, he is okay. That indicates that it is a home issue. Sounds like family counseling needs to come first.

.

Actually this isn't true. Many kids with issues (ADHD/-anxiety, etc) hold it together at school even though it's extremely hard for them , they are mentally and physically done - no gas in the tank- when they get home and then things can get rough

[Anonymous]

Read or listen to The Explosive Child . I listen to it every six months or so and have for several years. It really helped us. My son was like yours at 7 and is now 14. He's doing great but it took us a long time and therapy to get here. You have to really learn to look at your reactions and triggers too. You mention you have add I have a mood disorder and it makes parenting a child with one that much harder!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is very difficult, but more so at school. Is there any difference between school and home? Is he always angry? What keeps him calm and happy?

For my son, the neuropsych testing was not very helpful as we already knew that anxiety and ADHD were driving him. Even with his behaviors, he is not considered odd. Medication was key (Zoloft first, then added Concerta). We have also had success with a social skills group (Alvord and Baker) and family therapy. However, individual therapy is still not something he is ready for- he is 9. It ends up being too much of what he hates- talking about his feelings.

He is great at school and from what I read on ODD that can be quite typical. He is not angry when he is doing what he wants, but the SECOND my DH or I ask him to do something even minor he meltdown. Hes happy as can br as long as hes dictating the shots. Hang your backpack up results in rage. He gets irritated at the most minor of things. Today was the way his brother was breathing (allergies and stuffy).

So, we walk on eggshells. Tonight in order to get him in the shower, i didn't ask him to get in the shower, i coaxed him upstairs and into the bathroom ans then asked him to get in thr shower. A tantrum ensued, but at least we were in the bathroom, not downstairs, which getring up the stairs for a shower is half the battle. We basicslly operate around him. It is is mentally taxing. I love my son, but im ashamed to admit, im beginning to not like him very much.

Hugs to you. I'm so sorry. This sounds so much like my son. It is exhausting. With kids who are oppositional, there is no positive feedback to keep you going through the rough stuff, and it drains your soul.

All I can tell you is that with time our DS is beginning to mature (he is 14) and the tantrums and compliance issues don't come quite as often now. He has been diagnosed with ADHD and anxiety and the concerta made a huge difference in his mood, even more than the Zoloft.

We go to Kennedy Krieger. A large part of therapy is teaching parents how to react, not teaching the kids how to behave. Learning to ignore or respond with equilibrium is key (and that is very difficult, I know). And not to ever get into arguments. Consistency - don't let your guard down and think, well this one time I can give in because he's been such a dear the past few hours. They need to know what to expect. For example, I learned to go in and turn off the computer if DS didn't get off the first time I asked. Didn't give him multiple warnings, I just went in and said, time's up. After a few times of that, and losing progress in games he was playing (and yes, a few meltdowns), he is now much more likely to get off as soon as I walk into the room. He still rarely gets off if I ask from another room, but this is progress.

Lots of praise when he does something right or the first time you ask. Lots and lots and lots of praise. Tell him all the things he's doing right. Give him big rewards.

Good luck. Make sure you take some time for yourself to recharge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The one key thing is that the behavior is only at home. When the teachers give a demand, he is okay. That indicates that it is a home issue. Sounds like family counseling needs to come first.

.

Actually this isn't true. Many kids with issues (ADHD/-anxiety, etc) hold it together at school even though it's extremely hard for them , they are mentally and physically done - no gas in the tank- when they get home and then things can get rough

Yup. I know it's been a tough day when I pick up my 9yo and he glares and grunts at me instead of giving me a hug. I usually start an audio book in the car for the ride home and don't say anything to him, otherwise he'll start ranting at me. Then we walk in the door in the door at home and I hand him a protein shake. If I engage with his ranting during any of this, it'll just escalate but if I follow this procedure he'll calm down and come apologize to me.

[Anonymous]

OP,

Glad the Kazdin Method has proved insightful. Just checking in for a gentle reminder to call KKI or Children's to schedule a global evaluation of your kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is very difficult, but more so at school. Is there any difference between school and home? Is he always angry? What keeps him calm and happy?

For my son, the neuropsych testing was not very helpful as we already knew that anxiety and ADHD were driving him. Even with his behaviors, he is not considered odd. Medication was key (Zoloft first, then added Concerta). We have also had success with a social skills group (Alvord and Baker) and family therapy. However, individual therapy is still not something he is ready for- he is 9. It ends up being too much of what he hates- talking about his feelings.

He is great at school and from what I read on ODD that can be quite typical. He is not angry when he is doing what he wants, but the SECOND my DH or I ask him to do something even minor he meltdown. Hes happy as can br as long as hes dictating the shots. Hang your backpack up results in rage. He gets irritated at the most minor of things. Today was the way his brother was breathing (allergies and stuffy).

So, we walk on eggshells. Tonight in order to get him in the shower, i didn't ask him to get in the shower, i coaxed him upstairs and into the bathroom ans then asked him to get in thr shower. A tantrum ensued, but at least we were in the bathroom, not downstairs, which getring up the stairs for a shower is half the battle. We basicslly operate around him. It is is mentally taxing. I love my son, but im ashamed to admit, im beginning to not like him very much.

Hugs to you. I'm so sorry. This sounds so much like my son. It is exhausting. With kids who are oppositional, there is no positive feedback to keep you going through the rough stuff, and it drains your soul.

All I can tell you is that with time our DS is beginning to mature (he is 14) and the tantrums and compliance issues don't come quite as often now. He has been diagnosed with ADHD and anxiety and the concerta made a huge difference in his mood, even more than the Zoloft.

We go to Kennedy Krieger. A large part of therapy is teaching parents how to react, not teaching the kids how to behave. Learning to ignore or respond with equilibrium is key (and that is very difficult, I know). And not to ever get into arguments. Consistency - don't let your guard down and think, well this one time I can give in because he's been such a dear the past few hours. They need to know what to expect. For example, I learned to go in and turn off the computer if DS didn't get off the first time I asked. Didn't give him multiple warnings, I just went in and said, time's up. After a few times of that, and losing progress in games he was playing (and yes, a few meltdowns), he is now much more likely to get off as soon as I walk into the room. He still rarely gets off if I ask from another room, but this is progress.

Lots of praise when he does something right or the first time you ask. Lots and lots and lots of praise. Tell him all the things he's doing right. Give him big rewards.

Good luck. Make sure you take some time for yourself to recharge.

I agree with this. Ridiculous amounts of praise for positive behaviours and zero emotional reaction from your part for negative behavior. "No, I'm not doing my homework" You: "That's unfortunate because you are so bright and your teacher will be so disappointed. Remember you earn ipad time when you complete your assignments" If he hits his sibling, you say, very calmly "You know that is not acceptable, you have lost (insert whatever privilege) but you can earn it back if you offer a heartfelt apology any time today, whenever you are ready" and then walk away. The less we react, the less he reacts and the shorter his tantrums. Keeping your cool and not allowing yourself to get worked up helps you stay less stressed also.