I guess I still don't understand transgender definitions of gay and straight

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm assuming you're a woman who likes men. You like men, not penises. Do you want to kiss a man, or a penis? Do you want to marry a man, or a penis? Do you see a picture of a man and think he's attractive, or a picture of a penis and think it's attractive. I'll answer for you, you look at human MEN and find them attractive, not penises as a body part. Straight women are interested in being in relationships with men, not penises with legs. Look up the following transgender men, who are men born with vaginas: "Benjamin Melzer" "Aydian Dowling" "Laith Ashley De La Cruz" and "Wesley Finn Tucker". Any straight woman would die to go out with these men, and just because these men were born without penises doesn't mean they're not desireable or that they're unlovable. Lesbians are attracted to people who look like women. NO lesbian would be attracted to any of the men listed above, straight women would, and are. They all have heterosexual girlfriends.

I like a man and a penis. I want to kiss a man and a penis. And if i am being honest, the penis pften makes up for the man. Occiasionally, back in my single years, the penis at times was of far more interest that the man. There is no subtracting the penis from any part of it for me.

That may be what is so confusing for some people, it is not something that can be parsed separately so neatly for everyone.

I dont care how good you look, no way I am dating you without the specific sexual part and function.... but i am also a breeder, right, so its a huge part of my identity to have that sexual function and gender identity fused. I will never call myself cis anything btw.

Why not? If you're a biological woman who identifies as a woman, you're a ciswoman or cisgender. Why is that hard?

[Anonymous]

NP. Why do we need to label ourselves as Ciswomen or Cisgender? Aren't labels something we are trying to move away from?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. Why do we need to label ourselves as Ciswomen or Cisgender? Aren't labels something we are trying to move away from?

It can be useful when talking about gender, like now. I don't call myself a ciswoman in general conversation, but when talking about issues of gender with my friends--most cis, some trans, some genderqueer, etc--it might be good to identify oneself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Why not? If you're a biological woman who identifies as a woman, you're a ciswoman or cisgender. Why is that hard?

NP. It's not that it's hard, it's that it is incorrect.

Cisgender is defined as: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth.

I am a woman because I am an adult human female- not because I identify as such. In the same way, I am a human because I am a homo sapiens- not because I identify as such.

I do not have any internal sense of gender (read: gender identity). The "feelings" that go along with my gender are the literal ones related to my menstrual cycle, and that's something I cannot "identify" out of, even if I wanted to.

[Anonymous]

I see it this way. If you are a transman (doesn't matter if you've had surgery or not) and you're attracted to women then you're straight. The same for transwomen, surgery or no surgery, if you're attracted to men then you're straight. Or however you really wanna label yourself because sexuality truly is a spectrum. I feel like it's not the sexuality of the transperson that people are confused about, it's the sexuality of the person DATING them. And to the person that posted about liking the person, not the genitalia, I got what you were saying. I love my wife, not her vagina. I mean her vagina is fine but I'm not a fan of genitalia overall to be quite honest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why not? If you're a biological woman who identifies as a woman, you're a ciswoman or cisgender. Why is that hard?

NP. It's not that it's hard, it's that it is incorrect.

Cisgender is defined as: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth.

I am a woman because I am an adult human female- not because I identify as such. In the same way, I am a human because I am a homo sapiens- not because I identify as such.

I do not have any internal sense of gender (read: gender identity). The "feelings" that go along with my gender are the literal ones related to my menstrual cycle, and that's something I cannot "identify" out of, even if I wanted to.

I am the same way as you. I find that most trans identity is very highly stereotyped gender roles. It is as though identifying as a woman means that you have penis but like pink, frilly skirts, make-up, butterflies, hair extensions, and high heels. As a woman who isn't particularly feminine and doesn't identify with really any of the things that transwomen talk about as how they knew they were a woman it doesn't make sense to me. Similar to 'thinking like a woman", as though we all think the same? I am again more stereotypically masculine in that sense. I am not emotional, more solution focused, etc. It is strange to me. I am still a woman even if I don't fit all the gender stereotypes of being female. Yet based on what transwomen say makes them a woman and not a man...I am actually not a woman by their standards. I don't have any particular feeling or identity about being a woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why not? If you're a biological woman who identifies as a woman, you're a ciswoman or cisgender. Why is that hard?

NP. It's not that it's hard, it's that it is incorrect.

Cisgender is defined as: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth.

I am a woman because I am an adult human female- not because I identify as such. In the same way, I am a human because I am a homo sapiens- not because I identify as such.

I do not have any internal sense of gender (read: gender identity). The "feelings" that go along with my gender are the literal ones related to my menstrual cycle, and that's something I cannot "identify" out of, even if I wanted to.

I am the same way as you. I find that most trans identity is very highly stereotyped gender roles. It is as though identifying as a woman means that you have penis but like pink, frilly skirts, make-up, butterflies, hair extensions, and high heels. As a woman who isn't particularly feminine and doesn't identify with really any of the things that transwomen talk about as how they knew they were a woman it doesn't make sense to me. Similar to 'thinking like a woman", as though we all think the same? I am again more stereotypically masculine in that sense. I am not emotional, more solution focused, etc. It is strange to me. I am still a woman even if I don't fit all the gender stereotypes of being female. Yet based on what transwomen say makes them a woman and not a man...I am actually not a woman by their standards. I don't have any particular feeling or identity about being a woman.

Do you actually know any transmen or transwomen? Hair extensions and frilly pink clothes may be the picture we get from widely-publicized people like Caitlyn Jenner, but "real life" people who have transitioned aren't necessarily that stereotype-based.

As for your non-feelings about being female: that's so awesome for you. I have the same feelings as a cisgender woman. But I also have the empathy to recognize that not everyone feels the same as me.

[Anonymous]

I stay as far away as possible from these problems and their definitions.
We're all human, we all have a place in society. I don't want to know the rest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"The more predominant view is that the penis is a female sex organ if the penis owner identifies as a woman."

Really? I had no idea this was the case. I know that most transgendered people have not gone through genital surgery, but that can be for a variety of reasons (simple cost being one of them). I really hadn't heard anyone talk about their penis being a female sex organ if they identify as a woman.

Yes. The current wave of trans activism holds that it is cissexist (transphobic) to only be attracted to women with vaginas or men with penises. Genitals do not correspond with gender or sexual orientation. Riley J. Dennis, a prominent activist and writer, explains here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5GYlZKfBmI

Danielle Muscato, a trans activist who went viral for her takedown of Trump after the election, puts it more succinctly (NSFW): https://twitter.com/DanielleMuscato/status/839611526998818817

A safe-sex guide from Human Rights Campaign, a top LGBT organization that gives a rundown on the correct anatomical terminology: http://assets.hrc.org//files/assets/resources/Trans_Safer_Sex_Guide_FINAL.pdf

NP. Yeah, see, this is where I get off the train. Call me trans phobic then. I'm only attracted to men with penises. Sorry, not sorry.

This seems to me like transgender activists seeking acceptance in part by trying to define other people's orientations as unacceptable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I stay as far away as possible from these problems and their definitions.
We're all human, we all have a place in society. I don't want to know the rest.

Agreed.

And the above poster is also right: this entire thread reeks of transgender activists making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why not? If you're a biological woman who identifies as a woman, you're a ciswoman or cisgender. Why is that hard?

NP. It's not that it's hard, it's that it is incorrect.

Cisgender is defined as: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth.

I am a woman because I am an adult human female- not because I identify as such. In the same way, I am a human because I am a homo sapiens- not because I identify as such.

I do not have any internal sense of gender (read: gender identity). The "feelings" that go along with my gender are the literal ones related to my menstrual cycle, and that's something I cannot "identify" out of, even if I wanted to.

I am the same way as you. I find that most trans identity is very highly stereotyped gender roles. It is as though identifying as a woman means that you have penis but like pink, frilly skirts, make-up, butterflies, hair extensions, and high heels. As a woman who isn't particularly feminine and doesn't identify with really any of the things that transwomen talk about as how they knew they were a woman it doesn't make sense to me. Similar to 'thinking like a woman", as though we all think the same? I am again more stereotypically masculine in that sense. I am not emotional, more solution focused, etc. It is strange to me. I am still a woman even if I don't fit all the gender stereotypes of being female. Yet based on what transwomen say makes them a woman and not a man...I am actually not a woman by their standards. I don't have any particular feeling or identity about being a woman.

Do you actually know any transmen or transwomen? Hair extensions and frilly pink clothes may be the picture we get from widely-publicized people like Caitlyn Jenner, but "real life" people who have transitioned aren't necessarily that stereotype-based.

As for your non-feelings about being female: that's so awesome for you. I have the same feelings as a cisgender woman. But I also have the empathy to recognize that not everyone feels the same as me.

I'm not the PP to whom you're responding, but I do know trans people and I agree with the PP.

Years ago, I didn't know much on the topic, but wanted to learn more so I could better understand the issue. What I came away with wasn't what I expected to learn going in.

Overall, yes, a lot of the framework underlying it is sexist and in some particularly horrifying ways, homophobic. It is only reinforcing sex stereotypes.

[Anonymous]

I'm a cisgender woman, and I have to say: Trans people (the ones I've met, the ones I actually know as people who have thoughts and feelings and hopes and doubts and think about bathrooms yes and the rate of suicide in their youth yes but also cooking dinner and doing well at whatever work project they're dealing with) have blown my mind open in realizing what I have always assumed was just, you know, true & unchanging about gender and sex. I'm really grateful to them.

OP, you sound really open to learning, and I hope you've gotten some context for how trans people experience their gender & their sexuality.

Some of this language still feels more stilted & academic than intuitive to me, but I assume it's because I'm cis and I've only dated cisgendered people. So I've never had to get language around it, because how I experience my gender is reflected in the world around me. I'm a tomboy who grew up to be a woman who can get it together to put on a dress for occasions. And all hail the feminists of the 70s who helped make sure that my version of girlhood raised fewer eyebrows than it would have 20 years before. My gender & the sex everyone assumed I was didn't conflict.

But to the people who feel really alienated by this language, I guess I just offer you the fact that listening to the experiences of other people (and the work that allies to trans people have done--like in this thread--to remind me that yeah of course a penis is a female sex organ if a transfeminine woman has one but also if I'm not having sex with a transfemine woman...then I don't need to worry about her sex organs.) has opened my eyes to the mutability of gender in really useful ways.

It's also made me a (slightly?) less self-involved asshole. And I think that's essentially the point of our time on earth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a cisgender woman, and I have to say: Trans people (the ones I've met, the ones I actually know as people who have thoughts and feelings and hopes and doubts and think about bathrooms yes and the rate of suicide in their youth yes but also cooking dinner and doing well at whatever work project they're dealing with) have blown my mind open in realizing what I have always assumed was just, you know, true & unchanging about gender and sex. I'm really grateful to them.

OP, you sound really open to learning, and I hope you've gotten some context for how trans people experience their gender & their sexuality.

Some of this language still feels more stilted & academic than intuitive to me, but I assume it's because I'm cis and I've only dated cisgendered people. So I've never had to get language around it, because how I experience my gender is reflected in the world around me. I'm a tomboy who grew up to be a woman who can get it together to put on a dress for occasions. And all hail the feminists of the 70s who helped make sure that my version of girlhood raised fewer eyebrows than it would have 20 years before. My gender & the sex everyone assumed I was didn't conflict.

But to the people who feel really alienated by this language, I guess I just offer you the fact that listening to the experiences of other people (and the work that allies to trans people have done--like in this thread--to remind me that yeah of course a penis is a female sex organ if a transfeminine woman has one but also if I'm not having sex with a transfemine woman...then I don't need to worry about her sex organs.) has opened my eyes to the mutability of gender in really useful ways.

It's also made me a (slightly?) less self-involved asshole. And I think that's essentially the point of our time on earth.

I have no trouble with the mutability of gender. But I do have trouble with the notion that sex organs are mutable. If a penis is a female sex organ, then why would a transgender woman care if she had one? Why aren't breasts also male, if they are attached to a transgender man? Why would a transgender man get mastectomies--aren't his breasts "male" because he is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a cisgender woman, and I have to say: Trans people (the ones I've met, the ones I actually know as people who have thoughts and feelings and hopes and doubts and think about bathrooms yes and the rate of suicide in their youth yes but also cooking dinner and doing well at whatever work project they're dealing with) have blown my mind open in realizing what I have always assumed was just, you know, true & unchanging about gender and sex. I'm really grateful to them.

OP, you sound really open to learning, and I hope you've gotten some context for how trans people experience their gender & their sexuality.

Some of this language still feels more stilted & academic than intuitive to me, but I assume it's because I'm cis and I've only dated cisgendered people. So I've never had to get language around it, because how I experience my gender is reflected in the world around me. I'm a tomboy who grew up to be a woman who can get it together to put on a dress for occasions. And all hail the feminists of the 70s who helped make sure that my version of girlhood raised fewer eyebrows than it would have 20 years before. My gender & the sex everyone assumed I was didn't conflict.

But to the people who feel really alienated by this language, I guess I just offer you the fact that listening to the experiences of other people (and the work that allies to trans people have done--like in this thread--to remind me that yeah of course a penis is a female sex organ if a transfeminine woman has one but also if I'm not having sex with a transfemine woman...then I don't need to worry about her sex organs.) has opened my eyes to the mutability of gender in really useful ways.

It's also made me a (slightly?) less self-involved asshole. And I think that's essentially the point of our time on earth.

You are a straight woman, so it's easy for you to say that it doesn't matter to you if trans politics consider a penis a female sex organ if it's on a transwoman.

It *does* matter greatly to lesbians, who have fought for decades for their rights to love who they love- other women- without persecution or hatred. It's been a long, hard-fought battle. But now trans politics say that lesbians who won't have sex with transwomen are "genital fetishists" (see the section on the "cotton ceiling" here by a lesbian feminist: https://sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2017/02/22/lezbehonest-about-queer-politics-erasing-lesbian-women/). Or see the video by trans activist Riley J. Cooper on page 2 of this thread. It reeks of homophobia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a cisgender woman, and I have to say: Trans people (the ones I've met, the ones I actually know as people who have thoughts and feelings and hopes and doubts and think about bathrooms yes and the rate of suicide in their youth yes but also cooking dinner and doing well at whatever work project they're dealing with) have blown my mind open in realizing what I have always assumed was just, you know, true & unchanging about gender and sex. I'm really grateful to them.

OP, you sound really open to learning, and I hope you've gotten some context for how trans people experience their gender & their sexuality.

Some of this language still feels more stilted & academic than intuitive to me, but I assume it's because I'm cis and I've only dated cisgendered people. So I've never had to get language around it, because how I experience my gender is reflected in the world around me. I'm a tomboy who grew up to be a woman who can get it together to put on a dress for occasions. And all hail the feminists of the 70s who helped make sure that my version of girlhood raised fewer eyebrows than it would have 20 years before. My gender & the sex everyone assumed I was didn't conflict.

But to the people who feel really alienated by this language, I guess I just offer you the fact that listening to the experiences of other people (and the work that allies to trans people have done--like in this thread--to remind me that yeah of course a penis is a female sex organ if a transfeminine woman has one but also if I'm not having sex with a transfemine woman...then I don't need to worry about her sex organs.) has opened my eyes to the mutability of gender in really useful ways.

It's also made me a (slightly?) less self-involved asshole. And I think that's essentially the point of our time on earth.

You are a straight woman, so it's easy for you to say that it doesn't matter to you if trans politics consider a penis a female sex organ if it's on a transwoman.

It *does* matter greatly to lesbians, who have fought for decades for their rights to love who they love- other women- without persecution or hatred. It's been a long, hard-fought battle. But now trans politics say that lesbians who won't have sex with transwomen are "genital fetishists" (see the section on the "cotton ceiling" here by a lesbian feminist: https://sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2017/02/22/lezbehonest-about-queer-politics-erasing-lesbian-women/). Or see the video by trans activist Riley J. Cooper on page 2 of this thread. It reeks of homophobia.

I suppose it is only a coincidence that in this debate, as ever, it is people with penises who are telling people with vulvas what to do and how to do it.