I guess I still don't understand transgender definitions of gay and straight

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm assuming you're a woman who likes men. You like men, not penises. Do you want to kiss a man, or a penis? Do you want to marry a man, or a penis? Do you see a picture of a man and think he's attractive, or a picture of a penis and think it's attractive. I'll answer for you, you look at human MEN and find them attractive, not penises as a body part. Straight women are interested in being in relationships with men, not penises with legs. Look up the following transgender men, who are men born with vaginas: "Benjamin Melzer" "Aydian Dowling" "Laith Ashley De La Cruz" and "Wesley Finn Tucker". Any straight woman would die to go out with these men, and just because these men were born without penises doesn't mean they're not desireable or that they're unlovable. Lesbians are attracted to people who look like women. NO lesbian would be attracted to any of the men listed above, straight women would, and are. They all have heterosexual girlfriends.

speak for yourself. me, I like penises. I think if you look at a man, think he is sexually attractive, and not think of penises, you just really aren't very sexual.

Hm. I like men a lot. On a sliding scale, I'd say I'm probably 90% heterosexual. I like sex a lot, and my DH and I have an active physical life together.

But I can honestly say that I very, very, very rarely look at a man--attractive or not--and try to picture his penis or wonder what it looks like. The penis itself isn't that important to me outside of its actual use. I guess I'm a fan of men but not penises.

[Anonymous]

Let me ask this. My biological sex is female. I menstrate. I bear children. I produce milk for those children. I like penises and like hard lean bodies.

But, how do I figure out what "gender" I am? I think I must be the gender equivalent of color blind, because I can not begin to imagine how one knows what gender one is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask this. My biological sex is female. I menstrate. I bear children. I produce milk for those children. I like penises and like hard lean bodies.

But, how do I figure out what "gender" I am? I think I must be the gender equivalent of color blind, because I can not begin to imagine how one knows what gender one is?

I think this goes to the point one of the PPs was making about "gender" involving a lot of stereotypes and the issue of being transgender raising some flags regarding what "is" and "isn't" masculine or feminine. On the one hand, there is much more recognition these days that gender is fluid and that people do not need to be just one way to be a man or a woman. On the other hand, transgenderism does run the risk of feeding into gender stereotypes. It's an interesting dichotomy -- on the one hand, there are people who were born female and consider themselves female but dress or act in a way more commonly associated with men are saying, "Society needs to accept that you can be a woman without liking pink and wearing heels and having long hair!" On the other, there are people who were born male but consider themselves female, and while they are also challenging the traditional notion of what a female may "typically" look like because they probably have some attributes typically considered to look more "male," in most cases, they tend to dress and act in a way that is hyper female and thus reinforce some of these stereotypes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask this. My biological sex is female. I menstrate. I bear children. I produce milk for those children. I like penises and like hard lean bodies.

But, how do I figure out what "gender" I am? I think I must be the gender equivalent of color blind, because I can not begin to imagine how one knows what gender one is?

I think this goes to the point one of the PPs was making about "gender" involving a lot of stereotypes and the issue of being transgender raising some flags regarding what "is" and "isn't" masculine or feminine. On the one hand, there is much more recognition these days that gender is fluid and that people do not need to be just one way to be a man or a woman. On the other hand, transgenderism does run the risk of feeding into gender stereotypes. It's an interesting dichotomy -- on the one hand, there are people who were born female and consider themselves female but dress or act in a way more commonly associated with men are saying, "Society needs to accept that you can be a woman without liking pink and wearing heels and having long hair!" On the other, there are people who were born male but consider themselves female, and while they are also challenging the traditional notion of what a female may "typically" look like because they probably have some attributes typically considered to look more "male," in most cases, they tend to dress and act in a way that is hyper female and thus reinforce some of these stereotypes.

If it about whether you like pretty, frilly things or plain, useful things, then I don't think "gender" should use the words "woman" and "male" to describe the opposite poles. There should be other words, since those things aren't really strongly correlated with the biological genders male and female. But, is this the correct way to know what "gender" you are? Or are there other aspects...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask this. My biological sex is female. I menstrate. I bear children. I produce milk for those children. I like penises and like hard lean bodies.

But, how do I figure out what "gender" I am? I think I must be the gender equivalent of color blind, because I can not begin to imagine how one knows what gender one is?

The rebuttal to this is that you don't feel a gender identity because your gender identity aligns with your sex, and you are thus "cisgender." From the POV of those who endorse the concept of gender identity, only people whose gender identity doesn't match their sex (and are thus transgender, non-binary, genderqueer, etc.) can "feel" their gender identity because they feel that something is off/out of alignment. To those who are cisgender, the feeling is unknowable. It is something that can only be understood by experiencing it, and cannot be adequately explained to those who are cisgender because cisgender people have no frame of reference for it.

[Anonymous]

Let's make this simple: If you have an "innie" you are a girl, and if you have an "outie" you are a boy. Nothing that you say will change this fact, nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask this. My biological sex is female. I menstrate. I bear children. I produce milk for those children. I like penises and like hard lean bodies.

But, how do I figure out what "gender" I am? I think I must be the gender equivalent of color blind, because I can not begin to imagine how one knows what gender one is?

The rebuttal to this is that you don't feel a gender identity because your gender identity aligns with your sex, and you are thus "cisgender." From the POV of those who endorse the concept of gender identity, only people whose gender identity doesn't match their sex (and are thus transgender, non-binary, genderqueer, etc.) can "feel" their gender identity because they feel that something is off/out of alignment. To those who are cisgender, the feeling is unknowable. It is something that can only be understood by experiencing it, and cannot be adequately explained to those who are cisgender because cisgender people have no frame of reference for it.

This is interesting. I am uncomfortable with the assertion that "everyone has an inborn gender identity, you just don't realize you have one because yours matches the sex you were assigned at birth." I don't feel like I have an inborn "gender identity." I'm a cisgender woman and I feel that my gender identity is socially constructed, like my identity as a short person and an American. If I'd been born a tall French man I would be a tall French man. I'm sure my personality would be somewhat different in that case.

I'm sure many cisgender women do feel they were born with a female gender identity, I just don't.

To be clear, I don't question that transgender people have a gender identity that doesn't "match" and that this is very painful. They should be allowed to live as the gender they identify with, use the pronouns they want to use, pee in the bathroom they need to use, etc. I just dont know why this has to go along with an assertion that EVERYONE has an inborn gender identity. It seems like, can't you just speak from your own experience, why do you have to try to speak for everyone else too?

I also wonder if all trans people accept that being trans is biological or innate, vs. a choice. This seems related to the question of whether everyone has an inborn gender identity. I certainly know some gay people who see sexual orientation as a choice, not something they were born with, even if that's a minority view. It would surprise me if all trans people accepted this "it's biological" position. (I don't personally know any trans people that I know of.) I can see why it makes sense to frame it that way for legal and rhetorical reasons. But it does seem like a weird case of trading one form of blind adherence to "science" (if you're born XX you're a woman, XY you're a man, that's it) for another (everyone's born with an innate female or male gender identity, some people's don't match the sex they were assigned at birth, that's it).

[Anonymous]

I don't anyone gay who views to whom they are sexually attracted as a matter of choice. I have heard of people -- moreso in the past than present -- who choose not to act on their sexual desires. Action is a matter of choice I suppose -- although it would be quite a sacrifice not to act on your true sexual attraction --- but I don't see attraction itself as being like that. As for trans people, I think it is similar. Clearly many people who have felt trans for years did not act on it - at least not publically. They chose not to transition. I suspect biologically it will eventually be shown that innate gender "identity" is a matter of degree. We all probably have characteristics we think of as more masculine or feminine, but very few of us would experience disphoria over this or deem ourselves transgender.