I guess I still don't understand transgender definitions of gay and straight

[Anonymous]

I read this article a few days ago on CNN and haven't been able to wrap my head around Devin's problem, and realized maybe in the anonymity of DCUM I could get some education.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/17/health/heart-of-the-matter-dating-transgender/

Devin is identifying as a "straight man" wanting to date women. Except, Devin is genetically female, and despite taking testosterone and identifying as male, has female genitalia. To me, this person isn't a straight man and therefore shouldn't be surprised that straight women don't want to date him/her because he/she isn't actually a man.

Help me understand this. When Bruce Jenner transitioned to being Caitlin I remember watching an episode of her show early on where she claimed to be interested in women, but not a lesbian. Aren't lesbians women who are sexually attracted to other women? So, if Caitlin was sexually attracted to women, then was she not a she?

I'm respectful of people's choices, but there isn't an easy way to ask these questions to put some understanding together with tolerance.

[Anonymous]

Gender =/= sexuality.

I am a cisgender straight woman, so I am a woman who likes men. My friend Selina is a transgender lesbian, so she is a woman who likes other women; her wife is a cisgender lesbian. Straight transgender women like men.

My husband is a cisgender straight man, so he is a man who likes women. My friend Sam is a transgender straight man, so he is a man who likes women. Gay transgender men like men.

[Anonymous]

I appreciate the explanation. Let me follow up on your friend Sam, as an example.

I understand that Sam is a transgender straight man. I understand that Sam likes women. Does Sam have a vagina or penis? Regardless of how we define gender or sexual attraction, I don't think(?) we've changed how we assign body parts to gender. So, even if Sam lives like a man, thinks like a man, perceives himself to be a man, is he not a woman and/or does that mean he dates women who are lesbians?

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude and insensitive. I'm trying to wrap my head around comprehension of that delta between gender and sexuality and how it expresses itself. DD is in 4th grade and has a transgender classmate, who honestly is the first transgender person that I think I've ever known personally, so I don't have a lot of information in response to any questions she asks.

[Anonymous]

It doesn't matter whether Sam has a vagina or penis. Sam probably dates heterosexual women who are attracted to men. Sam and his partner discuss what genitalia Sam possesses and Sam's date decides whether she's still attracted to him regardless of his genitalia. And if she decides she's still into Sam she's probably still hetero, but maybe not. Sexuality is all a spectrum and these labels are not so important. Does that help?

[Anonymous]

There are actually a good number of trans folks who identify as "straight" or "gay" but as it pertains to their gender identity. It has less to do about connections between trans/gay and more to do about how a person identifies in terms of gender, and separately how they identify in terms of being gay/straight/bi/asexual/pansexual, etc.


I am a lesbian. When I was in college, I dated a woman who had former only dated men. She identified, I suppose, as straight or bi before we got together. Then she identified as lesbian. Years later, my ex realized that "she" didn't identify as a woman - he then began using male pronouns, changed his name, and has since had both top and bottom surgery. But he still is only interested in women, and therefore identifies as a straight man. He has had several relationships with women since that time but I don't know how those women identify.

[Anonymous]

I think sexuality is fluid and shouldn't be held to the 4 definitives straight /gay male/female. I am a cisgender straight woman. That said, DH and I do enjoy threesomes from time to time and I enjoy being with another woman sometimes. I don't identify as bisexual as this enjoyment only comes when I'm doing it with DH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think sexuality is fluid and shouldn't be held to the 4 definitives straight /gay male/female. I am a cisgender straight woman. That said, DH and I do enjoy threesomes from time to time and I enjoy being with another woman sometimes. I don't identify as bisexual as this enjoyment only comes when I'm doing it with DH.

I agree, but what you're talking about is sexuality, and not gender identity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate the explanation. Let me follow up on your friend Sam, as an example.

I understand that Sam is a transgender straight man. I understand that Sam likes women. Does Sam have a vagina or penis? Regardless of how we define gender or sexual attraction, I don't think(?) we've changed how we assign body parts to gender. So, even if Sam lives like a man, thinks like a man, perceives himself to be a man, is he not a woman and/or does that mean he dates women who are lesbians?

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude and insensitive. I'm trying to wrap my head around comprehension of that delta between gender and sexuality and how it expresses itself. DD is in 4th grade and has a transgender classmate, who honestly is the first transgender person that I think I've ever known personally, so I don't have a lot of information in response to any questions she asks.

Sam identifies as a man, Sam dates women, Sam therefore identifies as a straight man. The women that date Sam may identify in different ways. It's possible that a woman who identifies as a straight, bi, or gay woman might date Sam. It's possible that a woman who dates Sam may simply identify as queer.

Nobody is coming around to check that Sam's dates have "date straight men" as part of their identity, though. If a woman who identifies as a lesbian has a crush on Sam and wants to date him, there's no Gay Robert's Rules of Order that says "stop, lesbian, can't date Sam, do not pass go do not collect $200."

[Anonymous]

I think it might help you to think of a transgendered person as someone who is missing their appropriate genitalia. The same as a man who has injured his penis and it is non-functioning. So there are three things going on. Gender identity (whether you feel like a woman or a man), sexual identity (whether you are attracted to men or women), and your body (which may have a functioning penis, a non-functioning uterus, a breast mastectomy, etc.). Your body's sexual organs can be completely different from your gender (or they can be non-functional). Same idea. Does that make sense?

[Anonymous]

PP here. To add on, transgender individuals want to be identified as their personal gender identity regardless of what parts they might have. I.e. you aren't less of a woman if you have a mastectomy (although of course lots of women do feel this way and often get plastic surgery so that their body again matches their gender identity). I have enormous sympathy for individuals who are born with genitalia that doesn't match their gender identity. What a terrible thing to have to live with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it might help you to think of a transgendered person as someone who is missing their appropriate genitalia. The same as a man who has injured his penis and it is non-functioning. So there are three things going on. Gender identity (whether you feel like a woman or a man), sexual identity (whether you are attracted to men or women), and your body (which may have a functioning penis, a non-functioning uterus, a breast mastectomy, etc.). Your body's sexual organs can be completely different from your gender (or they can be non-functional). Same idea. Does that make sense?

72% of transgender MTF people do not have genital surgery, so you're off base in thinking that the dominant view is that trans people feel they're missing the appropriate genitalia. The more predominant view is that the penis is a female sex organ if the penis owner identifies as a woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it might help you to think of a transgendered person as someone who is missing their appropriate genitalia. The same as a man who has injured his penis and it is non-functioning. So there are three things going on. Gender identity (whether you feel like a woman or a man), sexual identity (whether you are attracted to men or women), and your body (which may have a functioning penis, a non-functioning uterus, a breast mastectomy, etc.). Your body's sexual organs can be completely different from your gender (or they can be non-functional). Same idea. Does that make sense?

72% of transgender MTF people do not have genital surgery, so you're off base in thinking that the dominant view is that trans people feel they're missing the appropriate genitalia. The more predominant view is that the penis is a female sex organ if the penis owner identifies as a woman.

PP's point was trying to get OP to think about gender and sexuality apart from genitalia. They weren't saying anything about what genitalia any particular person has in real life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it might help you to think of a transgendered person as someone who is missing their appropriate genitalia. The same as a man who has injured his penis and it is non-functioning. So there are three things going on. Gender identity (whether you feel like a woman or a man), sexual identity (whether you are attracted to men or women), and your body (which may have a functioning penis, a non-functioning uterus, a breast mastectomy, etc.). Your body's sexual organs can be completely different from your gender (or they can be non-functional). Same idea. Does that make sense?

72% of transgender MTF people do not have genital surgery, so you're off base in thinking that the dominant view is that trans people feel they're missing the appropriate genitalia. The more predominant view is that the penis is a female sex organ if the penis owner identifies as a woman.

PP's point was trying to get OP to think about gender and sexuality apart from genitalia. They weren't saying anything about what genitalia any particular person has in real life.

PP's point, which I've bolded, is inaccurate. I corrected it with verifiable statistics. It's great to help people think of things in relatable ways, but not if the information is untrue for 99% of the general population and 70% of the specific population in question.

[Anonymous]

"The more predominant view is that the penis is a female sex organ if the penis owner identifies as a woman."

Really? I had no idea this was the case. I know that most transgendered people have not gone through genital surgery, but that can be for a variety of reasons (simple cost being one of them). I really hadn't heard anyone talk about their penis being a female sex organ if they identify as a woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"The more predominant view is that the penis is a female sex organ if the penis owner identifies as a woman."

Really? I had no idea this was the case. I know that most transgendered people have not gone through genital surgery, but that can be for a variety of reasons (simple cost being one of them). I really hadn't heard anyone talk about their penis being a female sex organ if they identify as a woman.

Yes. The current wave of trans activism holds that it is cissexist (transphobic) to only be attracted to women with vaginas or men with penises. Genitals do not correspond with gender or sexual orientation. Riley J. Dennis, a prominent activist and writer, explains here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5GYlZKfBmI

Danielle Muscato, a trans activist who went viral for her takedown of Trump after the election, puts it more succinctly (NSFW): https://twitter.com/DanielleMuscato/status/839611526998818817

A safe-sex guide from Human Rights Campaign, a top LGBT organization that gives a rundown on the correct anatomical terminology: http://assets.hrc.org//files/assets/resources/Trans_Safer_Sex_Guide_FINAL.pdf