What if your child, who was qualified for their "reach" or "stretch" school, chose not to apply?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would conclude that it wasn't the student's reach school, it was the parents' reach school. Let the kid apply to the very good other schools he or she was interested in, and let well enough alone.

I would never force my kids to go to Princeton (DH's alma mater) or Harvard (mine). They can go somewhere THEY want to attend.

NP here. No offense meant to any one poster in particular here. But I have a hard time believing that most parent (legacies also) with a child who turns out to be the class valedictorian with the 2400 SAT, and the amazing, recruitable talents, would not at least want or desire their child to apply and keep their options open. Remember, OP is not asking about attending, but simply about applying . Also, 16 and 17-year old young adults still need a little bit of guidance and direction when it comes to big and important life decisions. What OP has described is essentially a completely uninformed decision. Imagine that your spouse came home to say, "Honey, I toured the campus of this great corporation, went to an information session, and I plan to leave my current job tomorrow and move us near there." A college tour, which includes an information session of about 1.5 hour, plus a walking tour of about 1.5 hour, is simply not enough to make a decision without something more. Did your child study the programs and curriculum of the universities? Did your child consider how the programs at these places will further support and develop their outside interests in music, the arts, athletics? Did your child speak to current professors or students in their intended area of study? I am not saying that you have to do these things, but I think that the "the class valedictorian with the 2400 SAT, and the amazing, recruitable talents" would be wrong to exclude four top "reach" schools without more information -- and on the basis of only one visit. I would suggest that she discuss the options with her college counselors, and ask them to put her in touch with some of the high school's alums who attended her reaches and other choices as well.

Here's where this argument falls down for me. If you TRULY believe that there are dozens (scores, hundreds, insert your number here) of top-notch colleges out there, and if you TRULY believe that your child will be launched well from any of them, and if you have been avoiding the Tiger Mom syndrome and have been supporting your child's well-being and interests over Striving For The Top, etc., then you cannot also with a straight face argue that they should apply to HYP just in case. If you make this argument, then you are tacitly agreeing with the notion that HYP are special and that your child should go there if she can, even if she doesn't think the school would be a good fit for her. I actually think this kind of pushing is very undermining.

Every other school that the kid likes or doesn't like is based on exactly the same 3 hour visit. Why is it okay to reject, say, Williams or MIT based on a 3-hour visit but not Princeton? Why the double standard?

Personally, I find this girl's attitude and confidence to be very refreshing. This girl will be just as impressive going to and graduating from any number of colleges that are not HYP. If she doesn't need this kind of validation, why does her mother?

Regarding providing direction and guidance to 17 and 18 year olds: This is not the same as a parent who says: "I want you to apply to W&M and UVA even though you aren't sold on them, because I want to make sure you have a top-notch option that we can afford." It's not the same as saying, "I know you love these 5 elite SLACs, but I insist you find 3 safety schools to apply to that you would be okay with attending."

I think that that we should generally assume, for purposes of a DCUM College Forum discussion, that the parent has NOT "been avoiding the Tiger Mom syndrome". In fact, that assumption would explain a lot of the posts on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please let this one go.

-Mom to 3 college grads

What did your three college graduates decide to do?

One toured HYP and opted out of applying. I thought he'd like Stanford, but he found it didn't have the energy he wanted. He did apply and got into Berkeley, but he ended up taking a full ride to a very good state university where he got two degrees (B.A. and B.S.) and tons of attention and opportunities.

Another only wanted to follow her swimming passion and opted for a private DIII school in PA that offered a decent scholarship. She didn't apply to many other colleges.

The third applied primarily to big DI schools and loved her experience at one of them, but like her older sister, she had no interest in HYP.

I have one more to go.

Thanks for this candid and optimistic outlook!

[Anonymous]

My son is probably not HYP material, but we are in a similar place. He has no"reaches" on his list at all and has no interest in adding schools to his list just because they are more selective than the "match" schools that he really likes. He has a real anti-elitist bent. Truth be told, he likes his"safety" best of all, and mom and dad loved it, too. But it is considerably less selective than other schools he can likely get into, so I have been urging him not to get his heart set on it. I do think attending a more selective school keeps more doors open, if you can do well, and exposes you to really interesting people. But then again there is something to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. Sometimes I think our kids know themselves better than we know them, because we are too busy projecting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She's a teenager.

Insist that she applied to at least two to three of those reaches and make a good faith effort in the interviews.

Tell her you'll discuss all her options once she gets her acceptances, but it is her choice.

Then, if she gets in, encourage her to travel for an admitted students weekend at one of the reaches.

I thought I wanted to go to a less prestigious school, too. You know why? Because they did a major selling job on me because they HAVE to.

++, and Double +

But what's wrong with that? Some kids really soar when they are the big fish in smaller ponds.

Because you never see the admissions officers again once you are a student! It doesn't matter that dean of admissions so and so at top thirty school really wanted you to come whereas dean of admissions at top ten school sent you a form letter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son is probably not HYP material, but we are in a similar place. He has no"reaches" on his list at all and has no interest in adding schools to his list just because they are more selective than the "match" schools that he really likes. He has a real anti-elitist bent. Truth be told, he likes his"safety" best of all, and mom and dad loved it, too. But it is considerably less selective than other schools he can likely get into, so I have been urging him not to get his heart set on it. I do think attending a more selective school keeps more doors open, if you can do well, and exposes you to really interesting people. But then again there is something to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. Sometimes I think our kids know themselves better than we know them, because we are too busy projecting.

This is really helpful, and a lot like I am feeling as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of my kids went to Yale and the other visited and said he wouldn't apply. When I asked him to articulate why he said he did not like the Gothic architecture and he did not like the fact that in a lecture hall of a 150 desks not one was for lefties. Maybe those sound like stupid reasons to you, but they made sense to him as indicators of why he didn't want to be there. He ended up somewhere else and was very happy. It's the kid's decision, and whether the kid can fully articulate the reasons or not, they are there.

And then we could discuss the fact that Harvard undergrads are mostly taught by TAs...

NP here again. But see, PP, you had one child who did apply Yale, and decided to attend. What if that child, clearly one of the best and brightest of her or his generation, and with the intellectual gifts and the additional talents to go anywhere she or he wanted, had refused to apply to Yale out of hand? She or he would have given up an opportunity which they loved. Understandably your other child did not want to attend Yale, but perhaps less because of Gothic architecture and rightie desks, and more likely because of the pressure of sibling rivalry with a "brilliant' older brother or sister. I assume that you are being modest about your younger son, and --given that he had the potential for Yale -- that the "somewhere else" he attended was Princeton, or Stanford, or Harvard? In any case, hearing from parents whose exceptional children applied to and attended the very top schools that OP should "relax" and let her own top student forego a similar opportunity, is hardly reassuring.

But you talk like this is a zero sum game. It's not. If Yale child did not go to Yale, she would have gone somewhere else and likely loved that instead. You also talk like everyone who goes to Yale loves it. But that's not true either. (In fact, I know half a dozen Harvard grads and *none* of them loved it.)

This HYP fetishism is just ridiculous.

Perhaps you are right PP, but your younger son ended up attending Harvard didn't he? It is very easy for a parent whose two children attended Yale and Harvard to dismiss OP's desire for her daughter's achievement as simply a "fetishism".

I don't really think so. Imagine if someone sees a Rolex as the sign of success, and you point out to them that there are lots of watches out there that tell time just as well, and are less ostentatious. Now we can get hugely sidetracked by all the ways that that analogy doesn't work, but just consider the possibility that treating HYP admission as the prime, or only, measure of "achievement" is a form of fetishism.

[Anonymous]

I was the early poster who's child applied, though prodded, to an instate reach. I couldn't make peace with her not applying because I kept imagining a scenario of most of her best friends attending. They didn't. Like the OP, the same feeling of not wanting our child to regret not applying. I thought DD might change her mind between October and May.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of my kids went to Yale and the other visited and said he wouldn't apply. When I asked him to articulate why he said he did not like the Gothic architecture and he did not like the fact that in a lecture hall of a 150 desks not one was for lefties. Maybe those sound like stupid reasons to you, but they made sense to him as indicators of why he didn't want to be there. He ended up somewhere else and was very happy. It's the kid's decision, and whether the kid can fully articulate the reasons or not, they are there.

And then we could discuss the fact that Harvard undergrads are mostly taught by TAs...

NP here again. But see, PP, you had one child who did apply Yale, and decided to attend. What if that child, clearly one of the best and brightest of her or his generation, and with the intellectual gifts and the additional talents to go anywhere she or he wanted, had refused to apply to Yale out of hand? She or he would have given up an opportunity which they loved. Understandably your other child did not want to attend Yale, but perhaps less because of Gothic architecture and rightie desks, and more likely because of the pressure of sibling rivalry with a "brilliant' older brother or sister. I assume that you are being modest about your younger son, and --given that he had the potential for Yale -- that the "somewhere else" he attended was Princeton, or Stanford, or Harvard? In any case, hearing from parents whose exceptional children applied to and attended the very top schools that OP should "relax" and let her own top student forego a similar opportunity, is hardly reassuring.

But you talk like this is a zero sum game. It's not. If Yale child did not go to Yale, she would have gone somewhere else and likely loved that instead. You also talk like everyone who goes to Yale loves it. But that's not true either. (In fact, I know half a dozen Harvard grads and *none* of them loved it.)

This HYP fetishism is just ridiculous.

Perhaps you are right PP, but your younger son ended up attending Harvard didn't he? It is very easy for a parent whose two children attended Yale and Harvard to dismiss OP's desire for her daughter's achievement as simply a "fetishism".

I don't really think so. Imagine if someone sees a Rolex as the sign of success, and you point out to them that there are lots of watches out there that tell time just as well, and are less ostentatious. Now we can get hugely sidetracked by all the ways that that analogy doesn't work, but just consider the possibility that treating HYP admission as the prime, or only, measure of "achievement" is a form of fetishism.

PP, I know that you mean well, and that you are giving us good advice that you truly believe in. However, when you tell your lovely story about how your younger son did not want to apply to his older brother/sister's university, Yale, because the Gothic architecture and "rightie" desks did not feel "right" during his visit -- and how you were fine with that, and let him follow his instinct and to instead apply "somewhere else" that he wound up enjoying immensely . . . Well, that helpful and "pertinent" story loses its lovely punch when the "somewhere else" that he applied to, was admitted to, attended, and enjoyed so much is Harvard. How would you have felt if, instead, like the OP's daughter, your younger son had dismissed Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford as well, since (like his older sibling) he is obviously a talented young person capable of any of those schools. You might have felt bad about it, or you might have felt fine with it, but you will never truly know since that was not the choice your children made? OP appears (or claims) to have a similarly talented and intelligent young achiever, and she "worries" about the opportunities left on the table when one does not apply. (And be honest, are you not "proud" that your children attended those schools? Do you perk up when you meet other graduates of those same schools? Have you ever been judgmental when your acquaintance's children have attended other schools? If you answered no to all of these questions, then you are truly a saint.)

Here is my husband's story. DH was from a western state and had already been selected as an "X" scholar (prestigious in-state scholarship to an in-state college), when a drama teacher at his high school encouraged him at the last minute (days before the post-marked application was due by snail mail) so apply to one of the four schools being discussed here. Long story short, DH was admitted and it altered the course of his life. After college he knew that he could accomplish anything that he wanted, and that he was as just good as his peers from wealthier backgrounds, and well-known high schools, and larger metropolitan areas.

[Anonymous]

Here's the point some of you are missing: OP's daughter gave it a chance but ISN'T INTERESTED! THE CHILD does not want to apply-the person who will have to live out the decision.

[Anonymous]

Long story short, DH was admitted and it altered the course of his life. After college he knew that he could accomplish anything that he wanted, and that he was as just good as his peers from wealthier backgrounds, and well-known high schools, and larger metropolitan areas.

Yes but...had he attended another college, you'd be singing a different but likely similarly effusive song. Talent, intelligence, and hard work will out.

[Anonymous]

If my sixteen year old told me that she wanted to commit to anything or anyone that she had only spent three hours with, I would tell her to study the issue further, and then we would discuss it. In fact, I know that my daughter regularly spends more than three hours a night on just a few subjects alone.

If OP's daughter has spent many, many, oh-so-many countless hours during her high school years devoted to her studies, her talents, her volunteer work, her job, her athletics, her extracurriculars, and her social relations, then she similarly owes it to herself, her potential, and her future, to spend more than three hours considering those (whether they be UVA or AU) "reach" schools which all of that hard work and devotion has prepared her for.

Where you attend college is a serious and important life decision, a bit like marriage in that it will follow you around, and she should devote some serious time to contemplating her "suitors".

[Anonymous]

OP,

It might be fear of failure. My son had it. If her counselors are encouraging her to apply, she should reconsider. However, it's quite loaded. I know top students were were shut out, despite counselors advising them to apply. It's kind of embarrassing for them, because people eventually tell others where they applied.

Maybe the question is, how would you and the school feel if she were accepted to any of these reach schools and wanted to go somewhere else?

These poor kids are under so much pressure! Maybe she's the smart one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Long story short, DH was admitted and it altered the course of his life. After college he knew that he could accomplish anything that he wanted, and that he was as just good as his peers from wealthier backgrounds, and well-known high schools, and larger metropolitan areas.

Yes but...had he attended another college, you'd be singing a different but likely similarly effusive song. Talent, intelligence, and hard work will out.

The people my husband met and studied with affected him deeply, and set into course a chain of events that led him to where he is today. At his core my husband is a good, loving, honest, hard-working, ambitious, and intelligent man, and he would have been all of those things no matter where he went to college -- true. However his opportunities, the ability to distance from the responsibilities of very poor (in many ways) childhood, and the connections and doors his education opened, have definitely placed him somewhere he would not have been without it. Of the students from his town who were awarded the same prestigious scholarship to the in-state option in years before and after, most returned to his mid-size hometown, while some traveled out to the mid-size regional city. This is not to say that these people do not have happy and satisfying professional lives and careers, many of them surely do, but none had the post-graduate and professional opportunities or success (the financial difference, though a small and arguably "unimportant" part of "success", is striking) that he has had. College or university is not only the four years you spend there, but potentially also the knowledge, experiences, ideas, friends, and network that you carry out with you for the rest of your life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

PP, I know that you mean well, and that you are giving us good advice that you truly believe in. However, when you tell your lovely story about how your younger son did not want to apply to his older brother/sister's university, Yale, because the Gothic architecture and "rightie" desks did not feel "right" during his visit -- and how you were fine with that, and let him follow his instinct and to instead apply "somewhere else" that he wound up enjoying immensely . . . Well, that helpful and "pertinent" story loses its lovely punch when the "somewhere else" that he applied to, was admitted to, attended, and enjoyed so much is Harvard. How would you have felt if, instead, like the OP's daughter, your younger son had dismissed Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford as well, since (like his older sibling) he is obviously a talented young person capable of any of those schools. You might have felt bad about it, or you might have felt fine with it, but you will never truly know since that was not the choice your children made? OP appears (or claims) to have a similarly talented and intelligent young achiever, and she "worries" about the opportunities left on the table when one does not apply. (And be honest, are you not "proud" that your children attended those schools? Do you perk up when you meet other graduates of those same schools? Have you ever been judgmental when your acquaintance's children have attended other schools? If you answered no to all of these questions, then you are truly a saint.)

Here is my husband's story. DH was from a western state and had already been selected as an "X" scholar (prestigious in-state scholarship to an in-state college), when a drama teacher at his high school encouraged him at the last minute (days before the post-marked application was due by snail mail) so apply to one of the four schools being discussed here. Long story short, DH was admitted and it altered the course of his life. After college he knew that he could accomplish anything that he wanted, and that he was as just good as his peers from wealthier backgrounds, and well-known high schools, and larger metropolitan areas.

Actually my other kid did not go to Harvard (or Stanford or Princeton)-- he did go to an excellent school but probably not the most prestigious school he could have gotten into (we won't know because I didn't "make" him apply to those places). Did I think he should apply to Yale? Sure, but I never said so and I am more proud of him for knowing what was right for him than I would be if he had applied to H/Y/P and gotten in, or even gone there just for the name. You seem so blind to the possible value of any school other than H/Y/P/S that you assume that any other choice is unreasonable and any advice I have is irrelevant.

If OP was saying her daughter had a shot at Yale but wanted to go to Sarah Lawrence because they have an excellent double major in music and women's studies then I think we could reasonably discuss how to balance what you think you want to major in with other factors. I can't say that SL would definitely always be the wrong choice but I'd certainly admit that I'd encourage my kid to have multiple options to consider. But OP specifically said her kid was looking at 6-7 excellent top ranked schools, just not H/Y/P/S. To act like applying to Williams and not to Harvard because you don't think Harvard is right for you is a failure to fulfill your potential is (IMO) nuts.

And my third kid and kids' friends went to all kind of schools so no, I am not judgmental about where kids go to schools. It really sounds like you are using the brand name of schools as a proxy for how good a job you did raising your kid and that is all kinds of wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Long story short, DH was admitted and it altered the course of his life. After college he knew that he could accomplish anything that he wanted, and that he was as just good as his peers from wealthier backgrounds, and well-known high schools, and larger metropolitan areas.

Yes but...had he attended another college, you'd be singing a different but likely similarly effusive song. Talent, intelligence, and hard work will out.

The people my husband met and studied with affected him deeply, and set into course a chain of events that led him to where he is today. At his core my husband is a good, loving, honest, hard-working, ambitious, and intelligent man, and he would have been all of those things no matter where he went to college -- true. However his opportunities, the ability to distance from the responsibilities of very poor (in many ways) childhood, and the connections and doors his education opened, have definitely placed him somewhere he would not have been without it. Of the students from his town who were awarded the same prestigious scholarship to the in-state option in years before and after, most returned to his mid-size hometown, while some traveled out to the mid-size regional city. This is not to say that these people do not have happy and satisfying professional lives and careers, many of them surely do, but none had the post-graduate and professional opportunities or success (the financial difference, though a small and arguably "unimportant" part of "success", is striking) that he has had. College or university is not only the four years you spend there, but potentially also the knowledge, experiences, ideas, friends, and network that you carry out with you for the rest of your life.

NP here-one with ivy degrees. And I can tell you that there are many, many ivy grads who probably ended up like the guys from your husband's hometown who went to the good state schools.

And there are those who went to lesser named schools who ended up doing much better than your husband.

I agree with the poster who said that it is YOUR HUSBAND that made all the difference. Ivies graduate thousands of students each year who will lead comfortable lives but not change the world in any significant way. State and other schools do the same. It's about the KID.

OP's kid doesn't want to even apply much less go. Your husband did want to apply. (He only needed the support--which OP's daughter has.) Huge difference.

I often what makes so many ivy students suicidal. I mean, they were obviously hardworking, capable students otherwise they wouldn't have been accepted. I wondered what made them crack while others did not. This thread makes me wonder if a great part of their distress is that they really did not want to be there in the first place. Were they simply satisfying their parents' wishes?

A kid with no intrinsic motivation to attend+pressure cooker environment = DISASTER.