Totally Freaked About the Entire College Industry and Game

[Anonymous]

There are the Ivy, MIT, and Stanford followed by everyone else. Look at where the majority of top officials are educated. Sure, someone will come out of 20-45 and change the world, but you can't argue with facts. Outside of the schools mentioned in the first sentence, they are all gaming the US News rankings, which have become the great arbitrator of American's social standing insecurities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are the Ivy, MIT, and Stanford followed by everyone else. Look at where the majority of top officials are educated. Sure, someone will come out of 20-45 and change the world, but you can't argue with facts. Outside of the schools mentioned in the first sentence, they are all gaming the US News rankings, which have become the great arbitrator of American's social standing insecurities.

But there are no guarantees in life and to look at a school as a magic bullet that is going to pave your kid's way forever is insane. Even coming out of Virginia or Berkeley or Tufts, not everyone is going to have this awesome career because there are only so many 1) high positions in corporate America, 2) one Secretary of State, and 3) one head of Goldman Sachs. Take the top 50 schools, multiply by the number of graduates, throw in people who got masters from there but went to a less known undergrad, and the competition is intense for these jobs. I know Harvard and Wharton MBAs who are not working - nothing is for sure anymore.

I know, "I want to give my kids the best chance". Fine. But a lot of top 50 graduates are going to have decent, not fantastic careers, no matter how smart they are and what they did in HS and college.

[Anonymous]

Buy some guides online OP and let your child engage fully in the process. Try not to stress out. Everyone gets in somewhere. Some parents have momentary grief getting over the fact their kid didn't get into "big name" school, but will forget that and brag about wherever it is they go. "Oh Johnny goes to UMBC because it has the best... program". Don't worry so much ...most of us are average.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are the Ivy, MIT, and Stanford followed by everyone else. Look at where the majority of top officials are educated. Sure, someone will come out of 20-45 and change the world, but you can't argue with facts. Outside of the schools mentioned in the first sentence, they are all gaming the US News rankings, which have become the great arbitrator of American's social standing insecurities.

This is true. Most parents would be better off sending their child to a solid state school they can afford where there are many majors to choose from and a range of different types of people to interact with. They should also drill the message that binge drinking and Greek life are the opposite of intellectualism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:18:09 Does your child have to play the sport? That's driving college? What if DC gets injured?

I cannot believe how high strung some of you sound!

There should be a poster: Stay Calm and Apply On.

18:19 here. Yes, my child HAS to play the sport. It's his whole world, and I would not take that from him. If he gets injured, he will get better, and he'll play again. But shutting out the opportunity to play would be devastating to him. I could not do it.

Yes, I'm high strung. Do you have a junior, PP? Do you have the resources to pay for private school without aid? If so, lucky you. Many are not so lucky, and yes this is a terribly stressful time and quite overwhelming to negotiate. We all want the best for our kids, don't we?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am glad you posted this.
Our kids are only in elementary school but I see folks with kids applying to college and it does sound like what you say.
We were talking to a counselor the other day and I did bring it up. She said that you really need to come up with your own family culture on what matters to you and stick with that. When you feel pressure from the outside, you are probably worrying about things that aren't important to you.

I have wondered though-- what's wrong with community college? I was talking with a colleague and she was saying that going to a community college would be so embarrassing for her kid. I totally do not understand that- but then again, my kids are still too young.

I do like the idea of letting things die down and taking that gap year. I did that in between college and grad school.

Just wanted to comment on community college:

I have two Ivy degrees, and went to a top private.

I SAH, so for fun, I took some classes at a community college. I was absolutely floored by what I found. Many of the kids there were as smart or smarter than the kids at the Ivies I'd attended. The difference is that most of them did not come from top schools, came from immigrant families, came from families where no one went to college and education was not valued. These kids (in their early 20s) figured out that to get ahead, they need college degrees, so while working full time jobs, they were going to night school at a community college. I've never met a more motivated, less spoiled, more interested and really sharp group of people. I was so much more impressed by my classmates at my community college than I was by the vast majority of my undergrad classmates at my Ivy and most of my grad school classmates.

There were some so-so kids too, but most were very bright, mature and motivated. I had to struggle to keep up with a lot of them.

If all other options fail, I'd feel comfortable letting DC go to community college for a year. The teachers were good too. Why such snobbery? Community college is a great deal!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I think your state of mind is common on the front end of the front end of the process. The good news is, as you transition from thinking about college to the practicalities of actual admissions process, you'll be surprised how much of this pressure will ease -- both for you and your daughter. A few observations based on our experience:
-- The only book we bought was the Fiske Guide. It doesn't use a ratings system but does provide a comprehensive and straightforward snapshot of each school, from academics to dorm life to drinking culture. It's a great reference if you're saying to yourself, I wonder what the deal is with Franklin and Marshall?
-- Just look at a bunch of schools when you're traveling. Look at big ones, small ones, city campuses, university towns. This will give you real images to mull, to balance out the paranoid visions of frat parties, etc.
-- Don't look at the college itself as the destination. Think about what the college will do for your child's personal and intellectual growth. As soon as the acceptances start rolling in, you will back in control of the process, and it's important that your daughter has choices that will give her real opportunities over four years, as opposed to just a line on her resume. Neither of my college kids attended the best schools they got into, FWIW.
-- Be realistic about money and you're going to play any part of this game, work that angle and cull schools on the front end based on aid prospects. I highly recommend The College Solution, a blog that focuses a lot on financing college.
Good luck.

Thank you for posting this, PP. It's a really sane approach. I've never heard of either the Fiske Guide or the College Solution, so will check out both. We're at the beginning of the process, but spring break is coming up, and we don't have a list of schools to visit or itinerary yet! Yikes, it's all come up so quickly! Now I'm all agitated again!

[Anonymous]

For the parents who are freaking out, it is incredibly important for your DC's emotional well-being for you to CALM DOWN. The last two years of high school are when kids are very vulnerable to anxiety and depression. Part of this is that they will be leaving home, and that can feel pretty overwhelming. Then there is the anxiety of applying to college. Your anxiety will only make things worse, it will certainly not help.

Seriously, a bazillion kids have gone before yours and a bazillion kids will come after. Its all going to work out. But if you don't find a way to calm down -- even to the point of getting professional help if you can't do it on your own -- you will do damage to your kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:18:09 Does your child have to play the sport? That's driving college? What if DC gets injured?

I cannot believe how high strung some of you sound!

There should be a poster: Stay Calm and Apply On.

18:19 here. Yes, my child HAS to play the sport. It's his whole world, and I would not take that from him. If he gets injured, he will get better, and he'll play again. But shutting out the opportunity to play would be devastating to him. I could not do it.

Yes, I'm high strung. Do you have a junior, PP? Do you have the resources to pay for private school without aid? If so, lucky you. Many are not so lucky, and yes this is a terribly stressful time and quite overwhelming to negotiate. We all want the best for our kids, don't we?

I don't actually want "the best" for my kid. "Good" is good enough for him and me. I am not willing to spend my child's teen years hounding him nonstop to achieve-achieve-ACHIEVE in order to acquire THE BEST. And even if he were one of those kids who drives himself relentlessly, without any push from me, I am not willing to spend (borrow) the amount of money that "the best" colleges will cost me.

Being upper middle class has its privileges, at least for me. I run the expected financial contribution calculator and the college net price calculators, and they generally spit out a number that is wholly unacceptable to me. They may think we can afford that amount; I don't. Once you realize that you aren't willing/able to pay for HYP, you stop worrying about whether your kid has what it takes to get in.

If you don't have the resources, you don't have the resources. HYP and their ilk give ZERO merit aid. ZERO. There will be no scholarships to "the best" schools that aren't directly related to your family income. If we were relatively poor, I'd be more interested in "the best" for my kid--both because "the best" schools are the most generous with financial aid and because the research shows that attending "the best" colleges makes a difference only for low income students, students of color, and first-generation college students. But for my upper middle income, white child of highly educated parents--research shows that "the best" conveys little benefit.

So breathe easy. All will be well.

[Anonymous]

The pressures around college & acceptance at a lot of the "top" DC-area high schools has been this intense at least since I went to one 25 years ago. 95+ percent of my class went to 4 year colleges. Only a percentage of any class get into the super elite top tier - but most get into very good schools, get great educations and establish great contacts for their careers and grad school opportunities. I spent all of my high school years being super anxious and doing everything I was supposed to go - and getting into an Ivy (albeit a 'second tier Ivy' - yes there are differences) - but wish still I had gone to a smaller liberal arts school instead, which would've been a better match for my social temperament. There are tons of great schools - my advice having lived through it & seen all my friends and family from here live through it & have lives beyond is to find a set of schools that match what your kids likes (a couple 'reach' schools, a couple 'on par' and a couple 'safeties') and it will all work out. There was much less control, rhyme or reason or 'fairness' to where kids ended up getting in than you would think anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a junior who is at a private school that literally forces the parents into this circus. Perhaps all the privates do, but at ours, it's a military operation. It has me going completely crazeeeee! My child plays a sport that's only played at a relatively small number of colleges, most of them private, so that is a restriction on the schools that he will attend that is doubling my craziness! On top of that, we are not eligible for FA, but can't afford to pay for any private college, so have to negotiate this very hazy world of "merit" aid in order to get DS into a school we can afford and where he can play his sport. I feel like DS will end up at a community college in the end -- to the complete revulsion of parents (and the counseling office) at our school!

When I went to school, I applied to three schools, one of them an Ivy. I got into all three, picked the one I wanted to go to, got some financial aid, and my dad paid the rest. I had a job at school, and a tiny loan. Four years later, I graduated from that very fine school with a small debt, got a low-paying job, yet still managed to pay off the loan in a few years.

Now, I see children and their families taking on staggering debt just to get through what I consider second or third tier schools. The schools I applied to are completely out of bounds for my kids, who have the same credentials I did, but are facing competition from a much larger pool of kids who have far better credentials. You didn't have to be a superstar to get into a great school back in my day, and it was completely within the ability of the middle class to pay for it.

I really don't know how to negotiate this mess, but I suppose we'll stumble through.

I don't understand why Congress has not started reining in college costs. Most of these schools should be taxed -- they are selling a product at a profit, and they plow those profits into larger campuses, bigger buildings, more expensive faculty to add to their prestige. Little of this creates a better education for our children, but the costs keep going up, and we keep paying them.

I do not think you can stay out of the craziness, OP, unless you let your child take a gap year and apply after all the madness of her peers has died down. I know someone whose child did that. She had a wonderful year working at a retail store, taking classes at a community college and spending time on her applications. She ended up at a very good school (not Ivy, but close) and avoided the madness.

Otherwise, you just have to hang on for the ride and enjoy it. That's what a parent whose gone through this twice and is on her third (and last) ride told me. This is the last year your child will be at home with you, so it's best to have fun and cherish every moment until they leave. They'll come back, but never live with you as a child again. That's how I'm dealing with it, OP. Good luck to you.

What sport does your son play that it's worth choosing his college around even if it is going to cost so much and limit his options? Why does he have to play the sport to college? Shouldn't the priority be to get a good education?

[Anonymous]

11:31 I have a high school senior so I've just been through this. I know tons of people who have remained calm and gone with colleges that fit their child and their budgets. I have never encountered this, a parent who acknowledges they cannot afford private but insists that this is where their child has to attend college because of a sport.

The best to you and your child -- I hope it works out!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:18:09 Does your child have to play the sport? That's driving college? What if DC gets injured?

I cannot believe how high strung some of you sound!

There should be a poster: Stay Calm and Apply On.

18:19 here. Yes, my child HAS to play the sport. It's his whole world, and I would not take that from him. If he gets injured, he will get better, and he'll play again. But shutting out the opportunity to play would be devastating to him. I could not do it.

Yes, I'm high strung. Do you have a junior, PP? Do you have the resources to pay for private school without aid? If so, lucky you. Many are not so lucky, and yes this is a terribly stressful time and quite overwhelming to negotiate. We all want the best for our kids, don't we?

I don't actually want "the best" for my kid. "Good" is good enough for him and me. I am not willing to spend my child's teen years hounding him nonstop to achieve-achieve-ACHIEVE in order to acquire THE BEST. And even if he were one of those kids who drives himself relentlessly, without any push from me, I am not willing to spend (borrow) the amount of money that "the best" colleges will cost me.

Being upper middle class has its privileges, at least for me. I run the expected financial contribution calculator and the college net price calculators, and they generally spit out a number that is wholly unacceptable to me. They may think we can afford that amount; I don't. Once you realize that you aren't willing/able to pay for HYP, you stop worrying about whether your kid has what it takes to get in.

If you don't have the resources, you don't have the resources. HYP and their ilk give ZERO merit aid. ZERO. There will be no scholarships to "the best" schools that aren't directly related to your family income. If we were relatively poor, I'd be more interested in "the best" for my kid--both because "the best" schools are the most generous with financial aid and because the research shows that attending "the best" colleges makes a difference only for low income students, students of color, and first-generation college students. But for my upper middle income, white child of highly educated parents--research shows that "the best" conveys little benefit.

So breathe easy. All will be well.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a junior who is at a private school that literally forces the parents into this circus. Perhaps all the privates do, but at ours, it's a military operation. It has me going completely crazeeeee! My child plays a sport that's only played at a relatively small number of colleges, most of them private, so that is a restriction on the schools that he will attend that is doubling my craziness! On top of that, we are not eligible for FA, but can't afford to pay for any private college, so have to negotiate this very hazy world of "merit" aid in order to get DS into a school we can afford and where he can play his sport. I feel like DS will end up at a community college in the end -- to the complete revulsion of parents (and the counseling office) at our school!

To me, this kind of limitation is actually very freeing. There are, literally, THOUSANDS of colleges. It's extremely helpful to have objective measures by which to narrow the list.

If the sport is that important, start with the list of all the colleges that offer that sport. Let's say OP's son is a potentially world class fencer. According to wiki, these are the schools with NCAA-sanctioned men's fencing teams:

BC
Duke
UNC-Chapel Hill
Notre Dame
Brown
Columbia
Harvard
Penn
Princeton
Yale
US Air Force Academy
Cleveland State
University of Detroit--Mercy
Lafayette
New Jersey Institute of Technology
Ohio State
Penn State
Sacred Heart
Stanford University
St. John's University (NY)
UCSD
Wayne State
Brandeis
Cal Tech
Drew
Haverford
Hunter
Johns Hopkins
Lawrence (WI)
MIT
NYU
Stevens Institute of Technology
Vassar
Yeshiva

This is actually a great list from which to start--a mix of reaches, matches, and safeties for almost any kid; public & private; very pricey privates and not-so-pricey privates; large, medium, and small; some that give good merit aid; some that are Division I and may give athletic scholarships if your son is of that caliber. Etc.

If you can start from a list like this (schools that offer your sport of choice), you and your son can sort them into groups depending on their selectivity vis a vis your son (reaches, matches, safeties) and then within those groups estimate their likely affordability by running net price calculators, and doing some research on which schools offer merit aid and whether your DS is a good candidate for merit aid (test scores in the top 25% for the school, etc.). Then you can start to narrow the list in each group based on location, size, social elements, fit, etc.

Easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the parents who are freaking out, it is incredibly important for your DC's emotional well-being for you to CALM DOWN. The last two years of high school are when kids are very vulnerable to anxiety and depression. Part of this is that they will be leaving home, and that can feel pretty overwhelming. Then there is the anxiety of applying to college. Your anxiety will only make things worse, it will certainly not help.

Seriously, a bazillion kids have gone before yours and a bazillion kids will come after. Its all going to work out. But if you don't find a way to calm down -- even to the point of getting professional help if you can't do it on your own -- you will do damage to your kids.

I am the poster child for this. It got so bad that I dropped out of one of the best state schools (went long distance) after a year because I could not handle the social anxiety and my parents did not know squat about how to support my issues. Eventually finished up locally and went to a solid grad school but it took a long time to get better. Would not wish my circumstance on anyone.