Fitting in financially DOES matter, like it or not

[Anonymous]

I find this whole fitting in/not fitting in thing fascinating. I actually don't want to be friends with people who are interested only in how much money I do or do not have.

My husband and I do not fit the mold. Our house is not what people would expect based on our titles. But, we like it and put a lot of work into getting it just how we want it, so why move? If people are sizing us up based on that, and think my kids are scholarship kids, they are dead wrong. And those are the people with whom I probably do not want to be friends.

It was actually funny, and quite sad, that people who didn't know us were suddenly much friendlier at school events when we donated a week at our second home to the auction. We usually don't mention it to people unless we are inviting a kid to come with us to sleepover for the weekend, so most people didn't know about it until then.

There will be kids in these schools who regularly spend their summers in Europe or some other glamorous place and who live in $7 million houses in Potomac, McLean or Mass Ave Heights. My kids won't do any of those things. I think the worst thing you can do is foster a sense of competition in kids. So far I have managed to get my kids much farther than I ever thought without being asked the dreaded "why don't we..." questions. When it comes up, I intend to say, "Because we don't." Or, "Because that's not what we choose to do with our money."

It was actually quite touching to me yesterday that my eldest remarked, as we were leaving from a long weekend at a well-known resort, that she was looking forward to returning to "our nice home." It isn't grand. It isn't even big. But it's nice, its ours, and she likes it. Why would I want to teach her that bigger is better?

[Anonymous]

But doesn't your entire post confirm the idea that status does indeed matter to some people at your school, if not to you yourself? You mention that people were nicer to you after you revealed the existence of your vacation home.

I think we've also established that it's not the parents who are fostering class consciousness in their kids -- the kids can pick this up perfectly well on their own, thank you. They notice the house size, the cars, and the multiple trips to Europe.

And now this thread has turned into "we're rich but we have a small green house and/or our kids don't notice when we go to a fancy resort." Could these posters please explain what's motivating these asides?

So where do we go from here? Other threads are talking about what income you need to "fit in". And others are talking about how they don't let it bother them because it's the education they're after, not acceptance in some social circle. But while I'm totally on board with the idea that class consciousness does exist, and that it's not totally the parents' fault, I'm wondering how much more there is to say on the subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: And now this thread has turned into "we're rich but we have a small green house and/or our kids don't notice when we go to a fancy resort." Could these posters please explain what's motivating these asides?

I think the point is that you can't judge a book by its cover. Sometimes the old sayings really are true.

A small house does not necessarily equal a cheap house. It also deosn't mean it is all that family could afford. A big house doesn't mean that person has more money than a someone with a smaller house, and for all you know, they may be about to default on their mortgage. Trips to Europe can be paid for with frequent flyer miles or the next $10K you are willing to run up on your credit card because you think the kids will feel bad because Johnny spent all last summer in Europe so you need to take them for at least 3 weeks.

Appearances, it turns out, can be very deceiving.

And I don't buy that kids come upon this feeling of competition solely by themselves. They can ask you why Susie has a bigger house or why you don't summer in Nice like Fred. The teachable moment is in the answer the parent gives.

What is sad to me is how many parents on this board seem obsessed with the books' covers. I have my doubts about how those teachable moments are going to turn out at their houses.

[Anonymous]

I don't remember that any parent here has said that they are encouraging class warfare at home.

I'd be very interested to hear what you tell your own kids when these questions come up. If it's along the lines of the post that said "we're richer than everybody else, we just choose not to show it" then I'm not sure you've successfuly squashed the status issue.

You've just turned it into a question of good vs. bad taste ("buying large fancy cars is tacky"). Or maybe you've turned it into a question of financial over-reaching (are you seriously suggesting that we tell our kids that family X with the big house is probably one step away from foreclosure?)

In either case, I don't think either of these tactics is sending a good message or removing the issue of class consciousness. Telling my kids we paid cash for that vacation in Europe last year (we did, just so you know where I'm coming from) does not, in my mind, teach them not to be status conscious. It's just another version of the same old one-upsmanship..

Sure we all tell our kids "don't judge a book by its cover". And while this is probably true in relationships, I'm not so sure it's helpful in this case, unless we are actually going to go down the route of tell our kids that their classmates families are financial frauds (no thanks!). And maybe our kids will grow up to be better for hearing this.

But that doesn't end the problem, it doesn't stop others from judging you -- in your own post you mentioned the reaction to the revelation of your vacation home. So I guess I'm back to acknowledging that the problem really does exist, and getting away from blaming the victim. And I really would be curious to learn what you say to your kids.

[Anonymous]

14:27, do you really see no irony in mentioning, in a post that's supposed to be about denying the existence of class consciousness, your own financial position and the fact that you spent last weekend at a fancy resort? It hardly seemed necessary to your arguments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:14:27, do you really see no irony in mentioning, in a post that's supposed to be about denying the existence of class consciousness, your own financial position and the fact that you spent last weekend at a fancy resort? It hardly seemed necessary to your arguments.

she also mentioned her second house!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:14:27, do you really see no irony in mentioning, in a post that's supposed to be about denying the existence of class consciousness, your own financial position and the fact that you spent last weekend at a fancy resort? It hardly seemed necessary to your arguments.

she also mentioned her second house!

I know - hysterical!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find this whole fitting in/not fitting in thing fascinating. I actually don't want to be friends with people who are interested only in how much money I do or do not have.

My husband and I do not fit the mold. Our house is not what people would expect based on our titles. But, we like it and put a lot of work into getting it just how we want it, so why move? If people are sizing us up based on that, and think my kids are scholarship kids, they are dead wrong. And those are the people with whom I probably do not want to be friends.

It was actually funny, and quite sad, that people who didn't know us were suddenly much friendlier at school events when we donated a week at our second home to the auction. We usually don't mention it to people unless we are inviting a kid to come with us to sleepover for the weekend, so most people didn't know about it until then.

There will be kids in these schools who regularly spend their summers in Europe or some other glamorous place and who live in $7 million houses in Potomac, McLean or Mass Ave Heights. My kids won't do any of those things. I think the worst thing you can do is foster a sense of competition in kids. So far I have managed to get my kids much farther than I ever thought without being asked the dreaded "why don't we..." questions. When it comes up, I intend to say, "Because we don't." Or, "Because that's not what we choose to do with our money."

It was actually quite touching to me yesterday that my eldest remarked, as we were leaving from a long weekend at a well-known resort, that she was looking forward to returning to "our nice home." It isn't grand. It isn't even big. But it's nice, its ours, and she likes it. Why would I want to teach her that bigger is better?

Maybe people were nicer because they appreciated your generosity!

[Anonymous]

This is all interesting, but what are we trying to prove another? I generally like attract like, be it status or whatever else...I am friends with people with tons of money and not so much money, but we all parent the same and are not flashy or self-conscience. That is really all that matters...who you surround yourself with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:14:27, do you really see no irony in mentioning, in a post that's supposed to be about denying the existence of class consciousness, your own financial position and the fact that you spent last weekend at a fancy resort? It hardly seemed necessary to your arguments.

It actually was. My point was all you people on this board would assume because I (i) don't mention my second house in non-anonymous company and (ii) live in a house that costs much less than I can afford that I was not as well off as others in the class. Similarly, you would assume that the people who do live in big houses etc. are far more well off than others in the class and some of you seem to feel insecure about that. My whole point was you know nothing of these people's finances and situations except what you choose to see. Again, don't judge a book by its cover. I never denied that class consciousness exists. I just said everybody needs to get over it and quit making stupid assumptions about people based on what you perceive they do or don't have.

The resort remark which so many of you find amusing was intended to show that if you raise your kids right they see no difference between a well-known resort (I said well-known; you all assume fancy) and their own homes that are filled with warmth and love, nor do they pine for some lavish lifestyle a classmate might have.

But, you know, keep assuming. Keep being status consccious if that's what floats your boat. Keep thinking you can size up everybody else's situations by their job titles, or cars, or houses or whatever. And most of all please keep thinking that it is who is richest in the class that matters. You will pass those things on to your kids, and then I will know which kids to steer my kids clear of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:14:27, do you really see no irony in mentioning, in a post that's supposed to be about denying the existence of class consciousness, your own financial position and the fact that you spent last weekend at a fancy resort? It hardly seemed necessary to your arguments.

It actually was. My point was all you people on this board would assume because I (i) don't mention my second house in non-anonymous company and (ii) live in a house that costs much less than I can afford that I was not as well off as others in the class. Similarly, you would assume that the people who do live in big houses etc. are far more well off than others in the class and some of you seem to feel insecure about that. My whole point was you know nothing of these people's finances and situations except what you choose to see. Again, don't judge a book by its cover. I never denied that class consciousness exists. I just said everybody needs to get over it and quit making stupid assumptions about people based on what you perceive they do or don't have.

The resort remark which so many of you find amusing was intended to show that if you raise your kids right they see no difference between a well-known resort (I said well-known; you all assume fancy) and their own homes that are filled with warmth and love, nor do they pine for some lavish lifestyle a classmate might have.

But, you know, keep assuming. Keep being status consccious if that's what floats your boat. Keep thinking you can size up everybody else's situations by their job titles, or cars, or houses or whatever. And most of all please keep thinking that it is who is richest in the class that matters. You will pass those things on to your kids, and then I will know which kids to steer my kids clear of.

Ugh. so self-righteous.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but you seem just as class conscious as the rest of us, if not more (justifications notwithstanding).

The only difference seems to be, at least as you've presented your argument here, that you're apparently so well off that you aren't bothered by it and/or have never experienced it, QED it must not exist. Not exactly convincing....

[Anonymous]

PP here. I was responding to 16:26, not to 16:36.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Sure we all tell our kids "don't judge a book by its cover". And while this is probably true in relationships, I'm not so sure it's helpful in this case, unless we are actually going to go down the route of tell our kids that their classmates families are financial frauds (no thanks!). And maybe our kids will grow up to be better for hearing this.

But that doesn't end the problem, it doesn't stop others from judging you -- in your own post you mentioned the reaction to the revelation of your vacation home. So I guess I'm back to acknowledging that the problem really does exist, and getting away from blaming the victim. And I really would be curious to learn what you say to your kids.

I say nothing to my kids. They are equally comfortable visiting a mobile home of a neighbor in a very rural area and a mansion (a for-real one), and they never mention the difference. They just care whether they had fun or something interesting happened. We have tried hard to teach them to comfortably straddle many worlds, and they do it. The only time they mention a house being nice is when they talk about ours, and I can assure you they have been to many, many grander places.

I think the "problem," if there is one, is that people seem so bent on comparing themselves to others. That's a learned behavior, and it can be unlearned. And yes, I get judged all the time. It amuses me, actually. I think its completely bizarre that people think they can size up other people based on their things. Why am I suddenly more worth talking to because I have X,Y or Z? I realize this is just a variation of the standard "What do you do?" question that floats around in NYC so often. It used to bother me, but I have finally gotten to the place that I really just don't care except perhaps to be mildly amused by it.

I never said you should tell them other kids' families are steps away from foreclosure. All I am advocating is teaching them that it just isn't really relevant to their reality and their lives. You get one life. Why spend the whole time checking out others' stuff rather than appreicating your own? I think there is a commandment along those lines, right? Thy shall not covet thy neghbors goods, or something like that.

[Anonymous]

To answer previous question, NIH researchers send their kids to BCC, Walter Johnson, and Churchill, or the Blair magnet. They can't afford privates, nor Whitman district. Moreover, they often send their science leaning kids to big public Universities, where well funded research programs exist.