Advice on working for female boss with no kids ...

[Anonymous]

In my experience...older woman with no kids tend to be the bitchiest bosses ever. I work for a very large govt agencies and the 10 or so NOTORIOUS BITCH, PIA...borderline harrassment bosses are all older women that never had kids (the ones that are also not married are the worst!). There are a lot of these type of women in my scientific field.

I've had some great male and female bosses over the years, but the ones with kids always seem the most empathetic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my experience...older woman with no kids tend to be the bitchiest bosses ever. I work for a very large govt agencies and the 10 or so NOTORIOUS BITCH, PIA...borderline harrassment bosses are all older women that never had kids (the ones that are also not married are the worst!). There are a lot of these type of women in my scientific field.

I've had some great male and female bosses over the years, but the ones with kids always seem the most empathetic.

I think the older women with grown children are even worse. I've worked for two and they were so bitter over how little flexibility/leave they had that they aren't going to give an inch. Ugh. Worked for one who just went on and on about how she only had two weeks of leave after she had twins because she was a tenure-track professor (who eventually became a dean of a small college). Nasty woman. Couldn't leave that non-FMLA-covered job fast enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hopefully she'll surprise you. But here are my tips:

--Do NOT complain about getting up at night, your kid being sick, you being tired, etc.--even if she brings it up
--Educate yourself about your rights if she tries to deny them
--As far as pumping and taking off time for appts, sick time, whatever--I would just make basic requests without sharing too much info. Your leave is your leave and though of course you need her approval as a supervisor, don't overshare on the justifications. Keep it super professional.

GL!

This is really good advice. You are within your rights to take leave to do what you need to do, but I would not provide explanations (or keep it very short, like "I need to phone in sick today" and not "Oh Jamie was up half the night and I'm so sorry but I need to get some sleep..."). I would focus on having good contingency plans for keeping clients happy, such as keeping your assistant well-briefed and/or having specific times you deal with email.

You mention she is a micromanager: I would focus on making sure your manager has access to the information she needs and treating her like a client.

If you feel things are getting rocky, I would start taking notes and understand clearly what your rights are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience...older woman with no kids tend to be the bitchiest bosses ever. I work for a very large govt agencies and the 10 or so NOTORIOUS BITCH, PIA...borderline harrassment bosses are all older women that never had kids (the ones that are also not married are the worst!). There are a lot of these type of women in my scientific field.

I've had some great male and female bosses over the years, but the ones with kids always seem the most empathetic.

I think the older women with grown children are even worse. I've worked for two and they were so bitter over how little flexibility/leave they had that they aren't going to give an inch. Ugh. Worked for one who just went on and on about how she only had two weeks of leave after she had twins because she was a tenure-track professor (who eventually became a dean of a small college). Nasty woman. Couldn't leave that non-FMLA-covered job fast enough.

I think it's tough to generalize - my boss is a mom of grown children and has grandkids my kids' ages. She worked for the vast majority of her kid raising years. Her personality is just really laid back though, so she doesn't care when I come in or leave within reason. I think it's just more of a personality thing for some people. If someone is bitter and has a grudge than they will be a difficult boss for many people, not just working moms.

She supervises other people who do not have kids and she doesn't treat them any different. The thing is many people want some balance and some control over their schedule (again, within reason) so I don't think it is just a working parent issue. I've seen plenty of co-workers not dealing with kids have to deal with aging and sick parents - or their own chronic illnesses, etc. And there are people trying to work and do grad school, or want to minimize a long commute, etc. It's always been that way since I've been in the workforce. I'm sure it's different in biglaw etc. but not every place, even in DC, is filled with people willing to make their job their whole life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I managed a large number of employees both before and after kids. I can't say that I make more concessions now than I did in the past but I have always been pretty flexible as long as you are smart, very productive, and make it up later at some point. The level of flexibility that I extend to an employee is directly related to how well they perform and the reason why they want to tele-work, shift their schedule, come in late or leave early doesn't really matter to me. I would be highly annoyed at someone who performed just OK to to just barely and expected special considerations just because she has children. I would be even more annoyed by an employee who felt that I would expect less of her if I had my own kids.

I agree with this 100%. I worked for a hard-ass boss who was sort of a pain the first couple months when I needed to take off for something, illnesses, etc. I performed well beyond his expectations and since then he has been the most flexible person ever. Never ever gives me a hard time about working from home or leaving early. I can pretty much make my own hours as long as my work is done. I haven't taken a full sick day in ages, because I can count naptime/evening hours as work. I got my best performance review to date. And this is in the federal government. I have also noticed that not everyone in my group has this leeway with him. Your focus should be on the quality of your work. Even if your boss is super flexible, it should be about hours or where you work, not what you produce. If you're expecting to produce less, that's not fair, because you were hired to do a job.

I also think it's ok to say you have to leave early because of a sick kid, but not ok to say you're tired because you didn't get sleep or whatever. Your personal life (unless very serious) should not impact your work performance. If you focus on your performance, I think everything else will fall in line, and you won't have issues with your boss, female or not.

[Anonymous]

My married childless middle aged female boss is really great about all these things. She really doesn't need to understand the details about why we parents need so much flexibility because she trusts us.

[Anonymous]

My best advice is don't expect her to understand. Don't go into detail about why you need this or that - because it will make no sense to her - just TELL her what you need. You need to leave at 3 because your daycare closes early, that is all you say. You had a rough night, you just say you are tired. Be clear about your needs, without detail. Detail sounds whiny and like you are making excuses. Straight facts work.

And when she drones on and on about how busy she is - with her one pet - and because she has dinner guests coming over - and how will she find time to clean in the next two weeks - you hold back from saying "are you crazy woman - you have tons of free time" and you smile, nod-knowingly, and agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My best advice is don't expect her to understand. Don't go into detail about why you need this or that - because it will make no sense to her - just TELL her what you need. You need to leave at 3 because your daycare closes early, that is all you say. You had a rough night, you just say you are tired. Be clear about your needs, without detail. Detail sounds whiny and like you are making excuses. Straight facts work.

And when she drones on and on about how busy she is - with her one pet - and because she has dinner guests coming over - and how will she find time to clean in the next two weeks - you hold back from saying "are you crazy woman - you have tons of free time" and you smile, nod-knowingly, and agree.

Because someone has had a rough night with baby isn't a valid reason for not coming to work. I would allow someone to leave early once in awhile but not every day. If that is the case then we have a problem because my working hours are 9 to 5, Both male and female are going to feel this way, Your colleagues will come to resent your special privileges, particularly, if they are always having to stay late to finish a project and to do your share.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My best advice is don't expect her to understand. Don't go into detail about why you need this or that - because it will make no sense to her - just TELL her what you need. You need to leave at 3 because your daycare closes early, that is all you say. You had a rough night, you just say you are tired. Be clear about your needs, without detail. Detail sounds whiny and like you are making excuses. Straight facts work.

And when she drones on and on about how busy she is - with her one pet - and because she has dinner guests coming over - and how will she find time to clean in the next two weeks - you hold back from saying "are you crazy woman - you have tons of free time" and you smile, nod-knowingly, and agree.

Are you KIDDING? Do you think it's okay for professionals to leave their offices at 3 p.m.????????

With no repercussions to their careers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm returning to work for a government agency after a maternity leave to have Child No. 2. My boss is an older woman, who is married but has no kids. On top of the fact that she is a bit of a micromanager in a litigation practice, I find that she is simply not as clued into the demands and responsibilities of being a mother (i.e., like she was surprised that I was getting up 1-2 times a night 2 months after the baby was born). Any tips on how to have a smooth working relationship with her? I generally try to avoid talking about my kids around her, but I will need to pump and be able to control my schedule a little more when I return to work ...

don't

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my experience...older woman with no kids tend to be the bitchiest bosses ever. I work for a very large govt agencies and the 10 or so NOTORIOUS BITCH, PIA...borderline harrassment bosses are all older women that never had kids (the ones that are also not married are the worst!). There are a lot of these type of women in my scientific field.

I've had some great male and female bosses over the years, but the ones with kids always seem the most empathetic.

In my experience, pregnant women and men and women with small children are the worst employees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I managed a large number of employees both before and after kids. I can't say that I make more concessions now than I did in the past but I have always been pretty flexible as long as you are smart, very productive, and make it up later at some point. The level of flexibility that I extend to an employee is directly related to how well they perform and the reason why they want to tele-work, shift their schedule, come in late or leave early doesn't really matter to me. I would be highly annoyed at someone who performed just OK to to just barely and expected special considerations just because she has children. I would be even more annoyed by an employee who felt that I would expect less of her if I had my own kids.

This! I have always been a high performer at work, and I continue to be one. With that said, since having a child I no longer come in to the office at 7am and leave at 7pm. I now am in the office from 8:15am to 4:30pm. However, I eat lunch at my desk while working. I work an hour in the morning before coming in to the office and a few hours at night after my daughter goes to bed. I do a few hours of work on the weekends as needed. I made sure the amount and quality of work that I produced never went down. As a result, when my daughter is sick and I need and want to stay home with her, I can do that and work from home and I have no problems from my boss. Mind you, my boss is a complete workaholic, micro-managing and demanding boss. I've worked for him or with him at a couple companies for about 7 years now, and he has always been the type of person to reject uses of sick leave or vacation time. I remember him once telling a woman in her 41st week of pregnancy that she couldn't work from home until the baby came. She ended up having to start FMLA early, even though she was perfectly capable of sitting on her couch and working away on her laptop.

My point is that even the most unreasonable boss can be reasonable if your work doesn't suffer. You just have to be clear that you need to leave when you need to leave but also that you intend to finish up more work when you get home. Also, take every opportunity you can to build good will with your boss. I do volunteer for the occasional late night call with clients in Asia, for example, and stay late for meetings very occasionally. On those days my husband handles daycare pickup. This buys me the flexibility to stay home with my DD whenever needed.

Finally, I will agree with and reiterate the other PPs who mentioned that you should under no circumstances complain about being tired or up all night. My daughter woke up every 2 hours for the 1st 5 months of her life, and I was back to work when she was 1 month old. I remember at one point a couple of my coworkers mentioned that they were shocked that I never looked or acted tired, because they thought parents of newborns were always tired. Well, I was exhausted, but I never mentioned it and I invested in some really good concealer for those dark circles -- Benefit Eye Paste, if you want a recommendation. Good Luck, OP. You can make this work!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience...older woman with no kids tend to be the bitchiest bosses ever. I work for a very large govt agencies and the 10 or so NOTORIOUS BITCH, PIA...borderline harrassment bosses are all older women that never had kids (the ones that are also not married are the worst!). There are a lot of these type of women in my scientific field.

I've had some great male and female bosses over the years, but the ones with kids always seem the most empathetic.

In my experience, pregnant women and men and women with small children are the worst employees.

I don't think anyone would argue that pregnancy is disruptive to an organization. Many women take 3 months off, I did. However, my company valued me so they wanted to work with me, and when I wanted to negotiate a reduced hours schedule during leave for when I returned, they did this too. I was paid 80% of my salary for 4 days of work. My co-workers didn't care because I wasn't given special privileges (I took a pay cut) and it was temporary. Plus I was flexible, checked in on my day off and responded to things accordingly, and switched my day off when necessary (we had full time daycare so this wasn't a problem, I would just keep my kid home on Wednesday instead of Friday for example). This worked for two years and then it was time for me to return full time because my responsibilities were increasing.

Since having a baby 2.5 years ago I've been promoted twice with nice raises both times. My employers made it clear they valued me and they wanted me to stay. Yes my pregnancy was disruptive as I'm sure my reduced schedule was too but it was worth it in the long term to my company. The economy has improved in my industry and when people have been unhappy, they have left. It's a competitive world out there for employers and employees, and if managers and companies are only thinking short term, they are going to lose people, pure and simple. That is why so many companies do things like onsite daycare, flex time, pumping rooms, telecommuting options. They WANT to retain good people. It's about trust. If they don't trust me they won't be flexible, but if they don't trust me, I will be aggressively job searching. I don't want to work for a company that doesn't want me.

[Anonymous]

Wow. I'm sure we have the same problem with male boss's, yet I don't see a post about that. Yet, because they share a vagina (or should I say vulva?) we expect them to go easier on us?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience...older woman with no kids tend to be the bitchiest bosses ever. I work for a very large govt agencies and the 10 or so NOTORIOUS BITCH, PIA...borderline harrassment bosses are all older women that never had kids (the ones that are also not married are the worst!). There are a lot of these type of women in my scientific field.

I've had some great male and female bosses over the years, but the ones with kids always seem the most empathetic.

In my experience, pregnant women and men and women with small children are the worst employees.

I don't think anyone would argue that pregnancy is disruptive to an organization. Many women take 3 months off, I did. However, my company valued me so they wanted to work with me, and when I wanted to negotiate a reduced hours schedule during leave for when I returned, they did this too. I was paid 80% of my salary for 4 days of work. My co-workers didn't care because I wasn't given special privileges (I took a pay cut) and it was temporary. Plus I was flexible, checked in on my day off and responded to things accordingly, and switched my day off when necessary (we had full time daycare so this wasn't a problem, I would just keep my kid home on Wednesday instead of Friday for example). This worked for two years and then it was time for me to return full time because my responsibilities were increasing.

Since having a baby 2.5 years ago I've been promoted twice with nice raises both times. My employers made it clear they valued me and they wanted me to stay. Yes my pregnancy was disruptive as I'm sure my reduced schedule was too but it was worth it in the long term to my company. The economy has improved in my industry and when people have been unhappy, they have left. It's a competitive world out there for employers and employees, and if managers and companies are only thinking short term, they are going to lose people, pure and simple. That is why so many companies do things like onsite daycare, flex time, pumping rooms, telecommuting options. They WANT to retain good people. It's about trust. If they don't trust me they won't be flexible, but if they don't trust me, I will be aggressively job searching. I don't want to work for a company that doesn't want me.

This all sounds perfectly reasonable, and you sound like someone that an organization would want to retain. Someone who characterizes older female managers who don't have children as "NOTORIOUS BITCH, PIA" and has found 10 such people in her organization has other issues. Many of the managers who have nasty reputations are actually fine to work for so long as you're a good employee.