Why are schoolyard social issues so much harder than anywhere else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, recess is pretty bad. Some of it is because of limited supervision, but I think it's mostly because kids are shaking out their place in the social hierarchy. It's normal and important developmentally, but it can get brutal if adults don't step in when kids are going too far.

OP here. The adults seem nonexistent during recess. DD has told me about ridiculous conflicts that could have been shut down in like 30 seconds by an adult just separating two kids or telling someone to mind their own business. But when I ask why no one talked to a teacher, she always says "they aren't there."

I get teachers need breaks too but these kids absolutely need more guidance than they are getting. Especially the girls. There is some behavior that sounds like teenage politics and it's clear it's not addressed at all. So it just escalates and then it sounds like it comes to a head during recess when the kids have more freedom and less supervision. It's gotten especially bad the last couple weeks because the kids are getting extra recess and downtime. The girls are spinning out and no one is stepping in and guiding them. It sucks.

I am a recess monitor. There are usually around 90-100 kids out and only 2-3 of us monitors. It’s just not possible.

Also, what are the recess monitors going to do? Station one monitor in each clump of girls to monitor and guide their conversations?

[Anonymous]

Honestly I think it’s how some of these kids blow off steam. My daughter HATES the recess drama and it sounds like some kids are just picking fights for the sake of fighting. Even good kids that can get along otherwise. I don’t really understand

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, you know too much

Or you think you know. And you don't. And you really shouldn't know anyway. This is her turf. Kid Rules are not Adult Rules. I'd believe half of whatever you're hearing and I bet you're only hearing the bad things

+1000

Stay out of it. Yes, you can sympathize but this is your kids’ situation to navigate.

This is all developmentally appropriate and how kids learn to deal with difficult situations without constant adult supervision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, recess is pretty bad. Some of it is because of limited supervision, but I think it's mostly because kids are shaking out their place in the social hierarchy. It's normal and important developmentally, but it can get brutal if adults don't step in when kids are going too far.

OP here. The adults seem nonexistent during recess. DD has told me about ridiculous conflicts that could have been shut down in like 30 seconds by an adult just separating two kids or telling someone to mind their own business. But when I ask why no one talked to a teacher, she always says "they aren't there."

I get teachers need breaks too but these kids absolutely need more guidance than they are getting. Especially the girls. There is some behavior that sounds like teenage politics and it's clear it's not addressed at all. So it just escalates and then it sounds like it comes to a head during recess when the kids have more freedom and less supervision. It's gotten especially bad the last couple weeks because the kids are getting extra recess and downtime. The girls are spinning out and no one is stepping in and guiding them. It sucks.

I am a recess monitor. There are usually around 90-100 kids out and only 2-3 of us monitors. It’s just not possible.

Also, what are the recess monitors going to do? Station one monitor in each clump of girls to monitor and guide their conversations?

I agree you can't intervene in every interaction on the playground.

I do think schools (and parents) should offer more explicit guidance in some of these issues. The same way you will tell kids to keep their hands to themselves, you can also tell them not to gossip or what peer pressure is. A lot of kids don't seem to have any guidance or modeling on these issues at all. I know people make fun of "socio-emotional learning" but it really is important.

[Anonymous]

Recess has been a problem for years. My kids are now adults and I remember what a sh#tshow it was for one of my sons. Not everyday but a few times a year.

This will pass but it's painful when you hear about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the whole thread but Op you mention "guiding them". Kids monitor this for other kids. One kid gets known as a bully and they are avoided. Behavior is checked by other kids. Really afraid of someone? You avoid them, you learn how to stay in a safe space. These skills (unless there's actual physical harm) are important skills. And this isn't learned with adults "guiding them"

The bolded is a problem thought because kids don't know what bullying is and will label other kids "mean" or "bullies" in situations where it doesn't apply. Just like adults.

The biggest problem I hear about is kids getting labeled bullies because they don't want to play with someone. My 3rd grader has told this approximately 4000 times this year. "Taylor is a bully, she won't play with Sophie when Sophia asks nicely." That's not bullying. I also hear about things like sticking out tongues, rolling eyes, or running away referred to as "bullying." It makes me laugh when my kid tells me they were being "bullied" because so-and-so stuck their tongue out at them, and I'm like "you stuck your tongue out at me this morning when I asked to you stay at the table until you were done with breakfast." Like no, that behavior isn't good and I hope other kids' parents are also calling it out and telling kids not to do it. But it's not bullying, it's kids who don't yet know how to handle conflict resorting to childish (they are children!) insults instead.

The kids know that the word bully is a powerful word. They want to use it to control the behavior of other kids they don't like. That does NOT mean your kids are dealing with bullies. It means they are smart enough to know that the label of bully can be harmful, but not smart enough to know that harm needs to be used judiciously and only in severe situations, not normal playground spats. Please push back against your kid labelling everyone they don't like a bully, in the context kids use it, it's basically name calling. Like calling another kid stupid or weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, you know too much

Or you think you know. And you don't. And you really shouldn't know anyway. This is her turf. Kid Rules are not Adult Rules. I'd believe half of whatever you're hearing and I bet you're only hearing the bad things

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, recess is pretty bad. Some of it is because of limited supervision, but I think it's mostly because kids are shaking out their place in the social hierarchy. It's normal and important developmentally, but it can get brutal if adults don't step in when kids are going too far.

This. These kids are around eachother all day, every day. Usually in a very structured environment. They develop feelings towards other kids in class because of X or Y or Z but they can't really express it or do anything about it because the classroom is structured. If a kid at their table is being annoying, they need to just be quiet about it. If a kid next to them on the carpet smells bad, they can't move and sit on a different carpet square. They can't form social heirarchies (which are NORMAL for humans of all ages) in class because they are drilled to include everyone , all the time, and typically aren't even allowed to choose who they sit by at lunch or who they work on a group project with. (I am not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing I'm just pointing out that it occurs.). So when these kids get to the playground they have about 15-20 minutes to get out all of their pent up feelings towards their classmates in whatever way they can and also, try to form the pecking order that they are not allowed to form for the other 7 hours of the day. So they have to work to form it really fast! None of this is conscious or anything- it just happens. The kid who had smelly feet that Larla has been forced to sit by on the carpet every day this week? Larla says "no you can't be on my team for group tag!". The kid who is annoying? "Stop talking!!! No one cares!!" followed by running off to play with someone else. All of the "only the three of us are going to play this game, you have to go do something else!" would probably tone down if the kids could more gently and organically form the pecking order during class every day because then about a month into school, the kids know their place in the pecking order and they tend to stick to the kids at their own level. If you never give kids a chance to shake that out, it makes things seem meaner. In my opinion.

Your daughter plays easily with random kids at the playground on weekends because there is no pecking order to be established and there is no pent up feelings about any of those kids from being with them day in and day out. And your daughter does fine in class and in ECs because they are heavily structured.

Wall of text jfc

+1 and the obsession with "social hierarchy" being some natural law is weird. That doesn't work because when kids sort into a hierarchy, there will be kids on the bottom, and no one likes being in the bottom. They will fight to get off the bottom rung. Plus there's always movement elsewhere. The hierarchy becomes the cause if conflict, and then kids still need conflict resolution skills.

The idea that it all works out when the hierarchy is left to sort itself out is false.

[Anonymous]

Is this public school? The Lord of the Flies dynamic went away as soon as we moved them to our private. Some of that is great, but sometimes I wish they’d let the kids figure things out on their own more.

[Anonymous]

Also, the word bullying has been way overused. Millennials and GenX have been overcompensating for their childhood trauma.

[Anonymous]

I remember at that age when the moms of me and my friends had Pink Ladies (Grease) jackets made at the request of one of us and we wore them on the school playground and it caused an uproar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, the word bullying has been way overused. Millennials and GenX have been overcompensating for their childhood trauma.

This, along with overdoing SEL has actually led to kids glomming onto any word or situation as bullying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, recess is pretty bad. Some of it is because of limited supervision, but I think it's mostly because kids are shaking out their place in the social hierarchy. It's normal and important developmentally, but it can get brutal if adults don't step in when kids are going too far.

This. These kids are around eachother all day, every day. Usually in a very structured environment. They develop feelings towards other kids in class because of X or Y or Z but they can't really express it or do anything about it because the classroom is structured. If a kid at their table is being annoying, they need to just be quiet about it. If a kid next to them on the carpet smells bad, they can't move and sit on a different carpet square. They can't form social heirarchies (which are NORMAL for humans of all ages) in class because they are drilled to include everyone , all the time, and typically aren't even allowed to choose who they sit by at lunch or who they work on a group project with. (I am not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing I'm just pointing out that it occurs.). So when these kids get to the playground they have about 15-20 minutes to get out all of their pent up feelings towards their classmates in whatever way they can and also, try to form the pecking order that they are not allowed to form for the other 7 hours of the day. So they have to work to form it really fast! None of this is conscious or anything- it just happens. The kid who had smelly feet that Larla has been forced to sit by on the carpet every day this week? Larla says "no you can't be on my team for group tag!". The kid who is annoying? "Stop talking!!! No one cares!!" followed by running off to play with someone else. All of the "only the three of us are going to play this game, you have to go do something else!" would probably tone down if the kids could more gently and organically form the pecking order during class every day because then about a month into school, the kids know their place in the pecking order and they tend to stick to the kids at their own level. If you never give kids a chance to shake that out, it makes things seem meaner. In my opinion.

Your daughter plays easily with random kids at the playground on weekends because there is no pecking order to be established and there is no pent up feelings about any of those kids from being with them day in and day out. And your daughter does fine in class and in ECs because they are heavily structured.

Wall of text jfc

+1 and the obsession with "social hierarchy" being some natural law is weird. That doesn't work because when kids sort into a hierarchy, there will be kids on the bottom, and no one likes being in the bottom. They will fight to get off the bottom rung. Plus there's always movement elsewhere. The hierarchy becomes the cause if conflict, and then kids still need conflict resolution skills.

The idea that it all works out when the hierarchy is left to sort itself out is false.

Actually when kids know they are on the bottom I think life is easier. Those kids hang out with each other and know to largely avoid the “popular” kids. The problem lies when that natural separation isn’t allowed - then there is more teasing and more attempts at brutal separation because the hierarchy isn’t clear to those kids who often lack the social astuteness that the “popular” kids have. Spoken as a lower on the totem pole kid myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, the word bullying has been way overused. Millennials and GenX have been overcompensating for their childhood trauma.

This. People don't know what it is, they think every conflict is bullying. Parents also don't realize their own kids are part of the conflict. They hear "so-and-so yelled at me" and think that kid is a bully, and don't realize the other kid yelled because they were responding to something their own kid shouldn't have been doing either.

[Anonymous]

I think this is a result of making preschool and kindergarten more academic so kids aren’t working on social skills as much.