Why are schoolyard social issues so much harder than anywhere else?

[Anonymous]

I work at an elementary. The situation is usually about 120 kids and 2 paras at recess to cover the whole field and playground. Teachers never attend recess. The reason your child may do well in class or at playdates or at extracurriculars is that there are more adults present to mediate conflict. Children are basically on their own at recess unless they really start to physically harm each other and it gets a para’s attention.

And no, the adults are not sitting there on their phones. They’re totally overextended.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ours is exactly like that and I have 3 kids in elementary. My one child is the most popular in his grade and even he cries at night about how brutal it is. Another kid stands in a corner because the girls are so mean to her and her friends are all in a different recess.

Instead of having recess monitors just stand and look at their phones, I think it would do a lot if the recess monitors had large games going. I remember ours teaching us double dutch jump rope, 4 square (the one with the ball that you bounce in the squares that people stand in), and group games of tag.

I suggested my kid take a book to school to read during recess so she could get away from these dynamics but then she said if she reads during recess kids come up and harass her ("why are you reading? what's wrong with you?"). Seriously, wtf.

Word?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What grade (3rd? 4th?)

4th but I recall 3rd being when these issues started. This year was worse though.

Yep, those are the peak years for this type of thing (I have recess duty and avoid those years if possible )

Does it get better in 5th?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What grade (3rd? 4th?)

4th but I recall 3rd being when these issues started. This year was worse though.

Yep, those are the peak years for this type of thing (I have recess duty and avoid those years if possible )

Does it get better in 5th?

No

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work at an elementary. The situation is usually about 120 kids and 2 paras at recess to cover the whole field and playground. Teachers never attend recess. The reason your child may do well in class or at playdates or at extracurriculars is that there are more adults present to mediate conflict. Children are basically on their own at recess unless they really start to physically harm each other and it gets a para’s attention.

And no, the adults are not sitting there on their phones. They’re totally overextended.

It depends on the school. Mine has 4 staff members at each recess (specialists) and classroom teachers take half of the shift

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What grade (3rd? 4th?)

4th but I recall 3rd being when these issues started. This year was worse though.

Yep, those are the peak years for this type of thing (I have recess duty and avoid those years if possible )

Does it get better in 5th?

No

It becomes different and usually better in my experience

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What grade (3rd? 4th?)

4th but I recall 3rd being when these issues started. This year was worse though.

Yep, those are the peak years for this type of thing (I have recess duty and avoid those years if possible )

Does it get better in 5th?

No

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, recess is pretty bad. Some of it is because of limited supervision, but I think it's mostly because kids are shaking out their place in the social hierarchy. It's normal and important developmentally, but it can get brutal if adults don't step in when kids are going too far.

This. These kids are around eachother all day, every day. Usually in a very structured environment. They develop feelings towards other kids in class because of X or Y or Z but they can't really express it or do anything about it because the classroom is structured. If a kid at their table is being annoying, they need to just be quiet about it. If a kid next to them on the carpet smells bad, they can't move and sit on a different carpet square. They can't form social heirarchies (which are NORMAL for humans of all ages) in class because they are drilled to include everyone , all the time, and typically aren't even allowed to choose who they sit by at lunch or who they work on a group project with. (I am not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing I'm just pointing out that it occurs.). So when these kids get to the playground they have about 15-20 minutes to get out all of their pent up feelings towards their classmates in whatever way they can and also, try to form the pecking order that they are not allowed to form for the other 7 hours of the day. So they have to work to form it really fast! None of this is conscious or anything- it just happens. The kid who had smelly feet that Larla has been forced to sit by on the carpet every day this week? Larla says "no you can't be on my team for group tag!". The kid who is annoying? "Stop talking!!! No one cares!!" followed by running off to play with someone else. All of the "only the three of us are going to play this game, you have to go do something else!" would probably tone down if the kids could more gently and organically form the pecking order during class every day because then about a month into school, the kids know their place in the pecking order and they tend to stick to the kids at their own level. If you never give kids a chance to shake that out, it makes things seem meaner. In my opinion.

Your daughter plays easily with random kids at the playground on weekends because there is no pecking order to be established and there is no pent up feelings about any of those kids from being with them day in and day out. And your daughter does fine in class and in ECs because they are heavily structured.

[Anonymous]

^^I'll add that some class cohorts are really just harder than others. Just based on the kids who happen to be in them. It's nothing wrong with any of the kids, it's just that some cohorts have a few too many main character syndrome kids, some cohorts have a few too many boys with untreated ADHD, and so on. In the elementary school I'm teaching at , the current 4th graders are an AMAZING group of children, and always have been. They all just generally get along. And this year's 3rd graders are a nightmare, and always have been. Nothing wrong with any of the kids individually- they just don't mesh well together as a group based on their personalities, and it's TOUGH. So your daughter might just be in a tough cohort.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read the whole thread but Op you mention "guiding them". Kids monitor this for other kids. One kid gets known as a bully and they are avoided. Behavior is checked by other kids. Really afraid of someone? You avoid them, you learn how to stay in a safe space. These skills (unless there's actual physical harm) are important skills. And this isn't learned with adults "guiding them"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the whole thread but Op you mention "guiding them". Kids monitor this for other kids. One kid gets known as a bully and they are avoided. Behavior is checked by other kids. Really afraid of someone? You avoid them, you learn how to stay in a safe space. These skills (unless there's actual physical harm) are important skills. And this isn't learned with adults "guiding them"

Nope. Kids need guidance on social interactions. Not just bullying but other issues. They don't naturally "check" each other in a productive way. Sometimes they do, other times they do things like involve themselves in something that has nothing to do with them or pile on in a situation where that will make a conflict worse. Kids' instincts are not always correct, even when there isn't an update immediate physical threat, and they go in fact need guidance and correction sometimes.

Your method also assumes every kid on the playground is neurotypical, is having all their physical and emotional needs met at home, and have decent role models for appropriate behavior. This is almost never the reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, you know too much

Or you think you know. And you don't. And you really shouldn't know anyway. This is her turf. Kid Rules are not Adult Rules. I'd believe half of whatever you're hearing and I bet you're only hearing the bad things

Kind of this, I assume the accuracy of what I'm hearing is about 50% unless I hear it consistently over a period of time.

I think it's pretty universal, and it's sometimes not great, but we have taken away SO many of the opportunities kids have for working out conflicts and social hierarchies. Fewer siblings, everything is a structured activity. It's how they learn.

[Anonymous]

Playground justice

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, recess is pretty bad. Some of it is because of limited supervision, but I think it's mostly because kids are shaking out their place in the social hierarchy. It's normal and important developmentally, but it can get brutal if adults don't step in when kids are going too far.

This. These kids are around eachother all day, every day. Usually in a very structured environment. They develop feelings towards other kids in class because of X or Y or Z but they can't really express it or do anything about it because the classroom is structured. If a kid at their table is being annoying, they need to just be quiet about it. If a kid next to them on the carpet smells bad, they can't move and sit on a different carpet square. They can't form social heirarchies (which are NORMAL for humans of all ages) in class because they are drilled to include everyone , all the time, and typically aren't even allowed to choose who they sit by at lunch or who they work on a group project with. (I am not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing I'm just pointing out that it occurs.). So when these kids get to the playground they have about 15-20 minutes to get out all of their pent up feelings towards their classmates in whatever way they can and also, try to form the pecking order that they are not allowed to form for the other 7 hours of the day. So they have to work to form it really fast! None of this is conscious or anything- it just happens. The kid who had smelly feet that Larla has been forced to sit by on the carpet every day this week? Larla says "no you can't be on my team for group tag!". The kid who is annoying? "Stop talking!!! No one cares!!" followed by running off to play with someone else. All of the "only the three of us are going to play this game, you have to go do something else!" would probably tone down if the kids could more gently and organically form the pecking order during class every day because then about a month into school, the kids know their place in the pecking order and they tend to stick to the kids at their own level. If you never give kids a chance to shake that out, it makes things seem meaner. In my opinion.

Your daughter plays easily with random kids at the playground on weekends because there is no pecking order to be established and there is no pent up feelings about any of those kids from being with them day in and day out. And your daughter does fine in class and in ECs because they are heavily structured.

Wall of text jfc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, recess is pretty bad. Some of it is because of limited supervision, but I think it's mostly because kids are shaking out their place in the social hierarchy. It's normal and important developmentally, but it can get brutal if adults don't step in when kids are going too far.

OP here. The adults seem nonexistent during recess. DD has told me about ridiculous conflicts that could have been shut down in like 30 seconds by an adult just separating two kids or telling someone to mind their own business. But when I ask why no one talked to a teacher, she always says "they aren't there."

I get teachers need breaks too but these kids absolutely need more guidance than they are getting. Especially the girls. There is some behavior that sounds like teenage politics and it's clear it's not addressed at all. So it just escalates and then it sounds like it comes to a head during recess when the kids have more freedom and less supervision. It's gotten especially bad the last couple weeks because the kids are getting extra recess and downtime. The girls are spinning out and no one is stepping in and guiding them. It sucks.

I am a recess monitor. There are usually around 90-100 kids out and only 2-3 of us monitors. It’s just not possible.