A real solution to underperforming and overcrowded schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Google "Least Restrictive Environment" OP.

Hint, it applies to the non English speaking students and many of the behavior problems.

If you want this to happen, you would need to start at the federal level with your congressman, and work backwards from there

Per Google:

Federal special education law, or IDEA, has two important requirements for a child’s placement:

A child with an IEP should be with kids in general education to the “maximum extent that is appropriate.”

Special classes, separate schools, or removal from the general education class should only happen when a child’s learning or thinking difference — a “disability” under IDEA — is so severe that “supplementary aids and services can’t provide the child with an appropriate education.”

A key word here is appropriate. It means what’s suitable or right for kids. Sometimes, a specific service or program can’t be provided in a general education classroom.

When certain schools in the county have so many ESOL kids in a classroom that it prohibits native English speakers from advancing at the same rate as classrooms with fewer ESOL pupils, there is a problem. I'm not MAGA, I'm tired of putting up with sub-optimal education because the county refuses to put ESOL kids (not just Hispanic by the way, there are many languages across Fairfax County) into full English immersion classes to get them to a point where they can read, write, and speak English at the same level as their native-English speaking peers. Kids CANNOT learn if they can't understand the teacher, and when they don't understand what's going on, they grow bored, and then become disruptive. This is a simple fact, not a dog whistle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a really stupid thread. Congratulations, OP.

You hate simple solutions. Got it.

Solutions so simple in fact that they are very likely to simultaneously run afoul of Brown v. Board of Education and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). Just ignore the law, it will easy.

I don't think you fully understand the intent behind IDEA. I was never meant for ESOL situations, but rather IEPs. As for BvBE, you would rather see kids continue to fall behind and create an unsafe learning environment as a result of their disruptive behavior than admit that ESOL kids need full English-language immersion in order to get their English reading, writing, speaking and comprehension up to grade level (or better). Why would you deny them a quality education because they can't understand the language. If anyone is discriminating here it's you and other "equity before all" progressives who can't face the truth about what's caused various schools across the county to slip in pupil performance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Google "Least Restrictive Environment" OP.

Hint, it applies to the non English speaking students and many of the behavior problems.

If you want this to happen, you would need to start at the federal level with your congressman, and work backwards from there

Per Google:

Federal special education law, or IDEA, has two important requirements for a child’s placement:

A child with an IEP should be with kids in general education to the “maximum extent that is appropriate.”

Special classes, separate schools, or removal from the general education class should only happen when a child’s learning or thinking difference — a “disability” under IDEA — is so severe that “supplementary aids and services can’t provide the child with an appropriate education.”

A key word here is appropriate. It means what’s suitable or right for kids. Sometimes, a specific service or program can’t be provided in a general education classroom.

When certain schools in the county have so many ESOL kids in a classroom that it prohibits native English speakers from advancing at the same rate as classrooms with fewer ESOL pupils, there is a problem. I'm not MAGA, I'm tired of putting up with sub-optimal education because the county refuses to put ESOL kids (not just Hispanic by the way, there are many languages across Fairfax County) into full English immersion classes to get them to a point where they can read, write, and speak English at the same level as their native-English speaking peers. Kids CANNOT learn if they can't understand the teacher, and when they don't understand what's going on, they grow bored, and then become disruptive. This is a simple fact, not a dog whistle.

You might be "right" but you are very incorrect in your interpretation of this federal law.

Segregation from the general population is only alllwed for the kids so severely mentally or emotionally handicapped that their specialized care can only be provided in a self contained setting.

A kid from Guatemala intruding in your kid's ideal classroom does not qualify for a self contained classroom and cannot be isolated from your English speaking child's class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a really stupid thread. Congratulations, OP.

You hate simple solutions. Got it.

Solutions so simple in fact that they are very likely to simultaneously run afoul of Brown v. Board of Education and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). Just ignore the law, it will easy.

I don't think you fully understand the intent behind IDEA. I was never meant for ESOL situations, but rather IEPs. As for BvBE, you would rather see kids continue to fall behind and create an unsafe learning environment as a result of their disruptive behavior than admit that ESOL kids need full English-language immersion in order to get their English reading, writing, speaking and comprehension up to grade level (or better). Why would you deny them a quality education because they can't understand the language. If anyone is discriminating here it's you and other "equity before all" progressives who can't face the truth about what's caused various schools across the county to slip in pupil performance.

You are incorrect.

ESL students are protected by IDEA, and cannot legally be segregated from your English speaking kid's classroom. They can be pulled out briefly for specific targeted instruction, similar to a kid getting speech therapy gets pulled out, but they cannot legally be removed from your kid's class.

This is well established and basic education law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a really stupid thread. Congratulations, OP.

You hate simple solutions. Got it.

Solutions so simple in fact that they are very likely to simultaneously run afoul of Brown v. Board of Education and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). Just ignore the law, it will easy.

Classroom violence is ok with you?

No. But a small minority of kids with “behavior problems” are committing classroom violence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Google "Least Restrictive Environment" OP.

Hint, it applies to the non English speaking students and many of the behavior problems.

If you want this to happen, you would need to start at the federal level with your congressman, and work backwards from there

Per Google:

Federal special education law, or IDEA, has two important requirements for a child’s placement:

A child with an IEP should be with kids in general education to the “maximum extent that is appropriate.”

Special classes, separate schools, or removal from the general education class should only happen when a child’s learning or thinking difference — a “disability” under IDEA — is so severe that “supplementary aids and services can’t provide the child with an appropriate education.”

A key word here is appropriate. It means what’s suitable or right for kids. Sometimes, a specific service or program can’t be provided in a general education classroom.

When certain schools in the county have so many ESOL kids in a classroom that it prohibits native English speakers from advancing at the same rate as classrooms with fewer ESOL pupils, there is a problem. I'm not MAGA, I'm tired of putting up with sub-optimal education because the county refuses to put ESOL kids (not just Hispanic by the way, there are many languages across Fairfax County) into full English immersion classes to get them to a point where they can read, write, and speak English at the same level as their native-English speaking peers. Kids CANNOT learn if they can't understand the teacher, and when they don't understand what's going on, they grow bored, and then become disruptive. This is a simple fact, not a dog whistle.

You might be "right" but you are very incorrect in your interpretation of this federal law.

Segregation from the general population is only alllwed for the kids so severely mentally or emotionally handicapped that their specialized care can only be provided in a self contained setting.

A kid from Guatemala intruding in your kid's ideal classroom does not qualify for a self contained classroom and cannot be isolated from your English speaking child's class.

If it were one ESOL kid from anywhere then the principles behind mainstreaming would hold, but in many schools across the county native English speakers are the minority in the classroom, and sometimes only. In those cases, the classroom is a defacto ESOL remedial environment which is hindering the progress of the English speaking student(s). You think this doesn't exist? Pay a visit to some of the elementary schools in the Mason District where ESOL is off the charts, and then talk to the parents of the native English speakers to see how they feel about the in-class experience. Then look at what's happening (or not) to real estate values in those parts of the county. There is no reason why education should become a real estate issue if ALL kids are ACTUALLY receiving equal opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a really stupid thread. Congratulations, OP.

You hate simple solutions. Got it.

Solutions so simple in fact that they are very likely to simultaneously run afoul of Brown v. Board of Education and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). Just ignore the law, it will easy.

I don't think you fully understand the intent behind IDEA. I was never meant for ESOL situations, but rather IEPs. As for BvBE, you would rather see kids continue to fall behind and create an unsafe learning environment as a result of their disruptive behavior than admit that ESOL kids need full English-language immersion in order to get their English reading, writing, speaking and comprehension up to grade level (or better). Why would you deny them a quality education because they can't understand the language. If anyone is discriminating here it's you and other "equity before all" progressives who can't face the truth about what's caused various schools across the county to slip in pupil performance.

You are incorrect.

ESL students are protected by IDEA, and cannot legally be segregated from your English speaking kid's classroom. They can be pulled out briefly for specific targeted instruction, similar to a kid getting speech therapy gets pulled out, but they cannot legally be removed from your kid's class.

This is well established and basic education law.

It's a complete failure, and again, ESOL was NEVER the impetus for IDEA.

[Anonymous]

Just because you bought a house in a bad district, don't hold it against the rest of the county, OP.

Some of the "best" schools in the county are overcrowded, yet by your standards overperform. There are sure to be kids in those schools who meet your criteria to be moved, yet they don't seem to bring down the 80% (or likely higher) of students that would meet your criteria. How do you solve for that? Are teachers/administrators secretly marking kids that need to be moved?

Parents in these schools have advocated for years for change, even for something as simple as the facilities and physical buildings to be improved. Even with something as simple as providing a quality building, FCPS can't get it done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just because you bought a house in a bad district, don't hold it against the rest of the county, OP.

Some of the "best" schools in the county are overcrowded, yet by your standards overperform. There are sure to be kids in those schools who meet your criteria to be moved, yet they don't seem to bring down the 80% (or likely higher) of students that would meet your criteria. How do you solve for that? Are teachers/administrators secretly marking kids that need to be moved?

Parents in these schools have advocated for years for change, even for something as simple as the facilities and physical buildings to be improved. Even with something as simple as providing a quality building, FCPS can't get it done.

That's a ridiculous take that reveals your inherent prejudice. The reality is that parents like you feel entitled to better education for your kids just by virtue of which zip code you live in. If you think it's ok for 20% of students at ANY school to underperform because they simply don't understand English well enough to succeed in the main classroom, or act out in disruptive ways that diminish the learning experience of other students, then you have other problems that no amount of logic will cure.

[Anonymous]

That's a ridiculous take that reveals your inherent prejudice. The reality is that parents like you feel entitled to better education for your kids just by virtue of which zip code you live in. If you think it's ok for 20% of students at ANY school to underperform because they simply don't understand English well enough to succeed in the main classroom, or act out in disruptive ways that diminish the learning experience of other students, then you have other problems that no amount of logic will cure.

I think the PP was arguing against the OP and saying even overenrolled/overcrowded schools still have the problems OP was mentioning, and pointing out that even facilities improvements aren't achievable in FCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That's a ridiculous take that reveals your inherent prejudice. The reality is that parents like you feel entitled to better education for your kids just by virtue of which zip code you live in. If you think it's ok for 20% of students at ANY school to underperform because they simply don't understand English well enough to succeed in the main classroom, or act out in disruptive ways that diminish the learning experience of other students, then you have other problems that no amount of logic will cure.

I think the PP was arguing against the OP and saying even overenrolled/overcrowded schools still have the problems OP was mentioning, and pointing out that even facilities improvements aren't achievable in FCPS.

I'm pretty sure the OP was suggesting that the boundary adjustment exercise is a charade that has yet to produce any workable solutions. All schools in Fairfax County have the potential to be average to high performing if kids are able to read, write, and speak English, but failure to address the impact of ESOL and lax enforcement of rules means a subset are held hostage by these kids. It's not wrong to expect kids to master English and take school seriously. In return, Fairfax County should provide the tools and instruction necessary for kids to reach English proficiency (if not mastery) and should stop allowing bad behavior to go unpunished.

[Anonymous]

Public schools serve the public. If you don’t want your kids in class with the public, you’re going to have to pay for private. They’ll be plenty of things you don’t like about those schools either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Google "Least Restrictive Environment" OP.

Hint, it applies to the non English speaking students and many of the behavior problems.

If you want this to happen, you would need to start at the federal level with your congressman, and work backwards from there

Per Google:

Federal special education law, or IDEA, has two important requirements for a child’s placement:

A child with an IEP should be with kids in general education to the “maximum extent that is appropriate.”

Special classes, separate schools, or removal from the general education class should only happen when a child’s learning or thinking difference — a “disability” under IDEA — is so severe that “supplementary aids and services can’t provide the child with an appropriate education.”

A key word here is appropriate. It means what’s suitable or right for kids. Sometimes, a specific service or program can’t be provided in a general education classroom.

When certain schools in the county have so many ESOL kids in a classroom that it prohibits native English speakers from advancing at the same rate as classrooms with fewer ESOL pupils, there is a problem. I'm not MAGA, I'm tired of putting up with sub-optimal education because the county refuses to put ESOL kids (not just Hispanic by the way, there are many languages across Fairfax County) into full English immersion classes to get them to a point where they can read, write, and speak English at the same level as their native-English speaking peers. Kids CANNOT learn if they can't understand the teacher, and when they don't understand what's going on, they grow bored, and then become disruptive. This is a simple fact, not a dog whistle.

You might be "right" but you are very incorrect in your interpretation of this federal law.

Segregation from the general population is only alllwed for the kids so severely mentally or emotionally handicapped that their specialized care can only be provided in a self contained setting.

A kid from Guatemala intruding in your kid's ideal classroom does not qualify for a self contained classroom and cannot be isolated from your English speaking child's class.

NP. I understand "it's the law" but it's also one reason why public schools have been circling the drain for the past 20 years.

[Anonymous]

Oh look, OP asked ChatGPT to write an inflammatory post for them!

[Anonymous]

Yes, let's go back to 1985 and just keep everyone who isn't JUST LIKE US hidden away in some craptastic closet somewhere.