If your student struggled academically in college…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never pushed DC to do anything, but she had a real passion for getting into an Ivy. She's always chased "prestige," and lord I wish I know where she got it from. She's now at Yale and well...very very unhappy. Test optional 1380 SAT and 31 ACT. She's very creative, and I honestly see a future where she's in advertising, but she's too stuck in the MBB cycle to actually take up a passion. She hated her first semester academically and clawed to transfer. She stuck it out, but if I could go back, I really would've encouraged her to submit test scores and be at an appropriate fit.

Was the work legit too hard / too much or is it just stress and anxiety?

A big problem for me was that high school was so easy that I didn’t have to work hard, and I didn’t really know how to work hard when I got to college. But your DD must have worked hard in HS to get into Yale TO.

And let’s not forget, Yale thought she was capable of succeeding at Yale…

I say it’s a few things. She says that her high school was harder than Yale, which does check out with where she went.

From how she’s talked to me about the situation, I think the academic intensity did take her by storm—as in the way students are laser focused on college compared to maybe other choices and how competitive it is to produce “good work.” She also had a pretty terrible housing situation and doesn’t really like the social scene for her reasons.

I try not to pry too much, unless she asks for guidance, but I do think it’s an academic culture mismatch

[Anonymous]

my DC just finished up frosh year at one of these schools - worried about academic intensity going in since was admitted TO and had a 1320 SAT. Said the biggest issue was impostor syndrome, or as she said “feeling like you don’t belong”. Kids need to push past that as the school saw a reason to admit, and as she said “most of the Sidwell kids I know paid for their scores - or at least the last 200 points”. Pretty funny comment but that’s what these kids think - that SAT scores can be rigged with extensive - and i do mean extensive - paid prep. Oh and she wound up with a 4.0 second semester, after a somewhat shaky start. Kamala will never let tests come back in California, and she may abolish testing nationwide. She is one smart and savvy cookie!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. The piece about test score matching is so interesting to me.

I’ve always dismissed the idea that test scores were a legit predictor of college performance. I’ve viewed them more as an indicator of a kid’s ability to excel at standardized tests, plus their access/commitment to good test prep. (I say this as someone who had excellent test scores but struggled at my top-tier college (probably due to lack of preparation at my relatively easy HS) and then excelled in grad school (no doubt due to the rigor of my college experience.))

So … as DC builds their list of schools, maybe we should be paying closer attention to where their SAT scores fall in the distribution for each schoo? Not just to try to predict admissions, but also to consider fit and college experience. What do others think? DC will still apply to reaches, of course. But if they end up accepted somewhere where their SAT is at the lower end of the range, that may be an indicator of their fit/success at that school. (I’m thinking about college grades but also about other opportunities - their connections with classmates and professors, extracurriculars and internships etc.)

Thoughts? Others’ experiences with this?

If kid has 34+ and 1500+ in one sitting at any time, they’ll be fine anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Weird hijack but I wish my DC could submit test scores without junior year grades. With test scores in mid 1500s, DC is an excellent candidate, but got 3 Bs and a B- this year in IB classes.

Hmmm. What’s the story behind those grades?

Setting aside the admissions game and the desire to get into a “better” school, which do you honestly think more accurately reflects your DC’s ability - their test score or their recent grades? Not to be rude, but there’s obviously quite a disconnect there. They tell two very different stories.

+1 My kid has an IBDP, 4.0 unwgpa, 4.92 wgpa, 1580 SAT, IB score of 38, I think. They didn't find IBDP all that difficult.

Academically, they could easily manage T10, but DC is not a striver, more of a minimal effort kind of person. They'd get lost at a T10 with the strivers and would be unhappy. They know that now. They are at the flagship that is known for their major, and very happy there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:my DC just finished up frosh year at one of these schools - worried about academic intensity going in since was admitted TO and had a 1320 SAT. Said the biggest issue was impostor syndrome, or as she said “feeling like you don’t belong”. Kids need to push past that as the school saw a reason to admit, and as she said “most of the Sidwell kids I know paid for their scores - or at least the last 200 points”. Pretty funny comment but that’s what these kids think - that SAT scores can be rigged with extensive - and i do mean extensive - paid prep. Oh and she wound up with a 4.0 second semester, after a somewhat shaky start. Kamala will never let tests come back in California, and she may abolish testing nationwide. She is one smart and savvy cookie!

? I had to look at the date stamp of this post. Kamala is not in charge of CA, nor can she abolish standardized testing nationwide. Most education policies are left to the states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never pushed DC to do anything, but she had a real passion for getting into an Ivy. She's always chased "prestige," and lord I wish I know where she got it from. She's now at Yale and well...very very unhappy. Test optional 1380 SAT and 31 ACT. She's very creative, and I honestly see a future where she's in advertising, but she's too stuck in the MBB cycle to actually take up a passion. She hated her first semester academically and clawed to transfer. She stuck it out, but if I could go back, I really would've encouraged her to submit test scores and be at an appropriate fit.

Was the work legit too hard / too much or is it just stress and anxiety?

A big problem for me was that high school was so easy that I didn’t have to work hard, and I didn’t really know how to work hard when I got to college. But your DD must have worked hard in HS to get into Yale TO.

And let’s not forget, Yale thought she was capable of succeeding at Yale…

OP. Yes, I worry that not having good study skills because they've gotten by so far will be an issue. Guess we still have a year to try to help them develop better ones.

IMO, public schools do a terrible job of teaching kids good study skills.

[Anonymous]

Major really matters though. Pick something you love to study/read about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. The piece about test score matching is so interesting to me.

I’ve always dismissed the idea that test scores were a legit predictor of college performance. I’ve viewed them more as an indicator of a kid’s ability to excel at standardized tests, plus their access/commitment to good test prep. (I say this as someone who had excellent test scores but struggled at my top-tier college (probably due to lack of preparation at my relatively easy HS) and then excelled in grad school (no doubt due to the rigor of my college experience.))

So … as DC builds their list of schools, maybe we should be paying closer attention to where their SAT scores fall in the distribution for each schoo? Not just to try to predict admissions, but also to consider fit and college experience. What do others think? DC will still apply to reaches, of course. But if they end up accepted somewhere where their SAT is at the lower end of the range, that may be an indicator of their fit/success at that school. (I’m thinking about college grades but also about other opportunities - their connections with classmates and professors, extracurriculars and internships etc.)

Thoughts? Others’ experiences with this?

No, I absolutely wouldn't give test scores that power. I used to work for ETS on the SAT.

You would be making a determination on college choice based on a few multiple choice questions your child answered differently than another child. Those questions were selected for inclusion because they were tricky enough to trip up the majority of lower-scoring test-takers and trip up fewer ultra-high scoring test-takers. But that's not the same as requiring advanced skills to answer the question. Think about an ambiguously constructed question on a passage of literature. There could be two answers that could be arguably reasonable, but if the "right" one is picked most of the time by the ultra high scorers and not by the other kids, that's a useful question for the test. Picking the "wrong" one doesn't mean you couldn't do college level work at the same level as another child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:…do you think they would have done better at a different school? Anyone feel like their student overshot and should have attended a target rather than a reach?

Of course academic struggles could also be due to partying too much, mental health issues, athletic commitments, picking a bad-fit major, size of classes, etc.

Knowing what you know now, would you advise your student differently?

Maybe, wondering about this. My child has some SN and is at a very academic SLAC and it's been a little rough. I have broached transferring to a closer school that I think would have more supports. But hard to know.

[Anonymous]

It's very difficult to do well at an elite college if you don't have the motivation beyond being good at something. You have to work very very hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never pushed DC to do anything, but she had a real passion for getting into an Ivy. She's always chased "prestige," and lord I wish I know where she got it from. She's now at Yale and well...very very unhappy. Test optional 1380 SAT and 31 ACT. She's very creative, and I honestly see a future where she's in advertising, but she's too stuck in the MBB cycle to actually take up a passion. She hated her first semester academically and clawed to transfer. She stuck it out, but if I could go back, I really would've encouraged her to submit test scores and be at an appropriate fit.

The ones who are struggling at my kid’s ivy are the TO kids. They admit it to their closer friends. One is on academic probation its rough. TO was a failed experiment. My DC’s feel bad for the ones who can’t keep up, well below means.

A 1480 going TO to a T25 is fine, if they have 8-10 AP, and a 3.9+UW and the drive to be there. A 1350 is very different, unless there is a huge reason behind the Lower test score.

FWIW, I've never understood why you would want your kid in over their head. Goal is to learn and enjoy college. Much easier to do if you are at 50%+

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I say it’s a few things. She says that her high school was harder than Yale, which does check out with where she went.

From how she’s talked to me about the situation, I think the academic intensity did take her by storm—as in the way students are laser focused on college compared to maybe other choices and how competitive it is to produce “good work.” She also had a pretty terrible housing situation and doesn’t really like the social scene for her reasons.

I try not to pry too much, unless she asks for guidance, but I do think it’s an academic culture mismatch

+1

My DD dropped out of CMU after her freshman year. She scored 1590 on the SAT, 36 on the ACT, and had 12 AP classes in HS. Her problem was that once she got to CMU, it was a very competitive/cut throat environment, and she could not handle just being average. My employer's CEO who graduated from Virginia Tech, had a talk with her and told her that there is no shame in transferring out of CMU. DD took a gap year, and she is now at VCU majoring in biomedical engineering, and she is very happy there. She has other things in her life, such as having a bf, time to practice her violin and piano. I am very happy for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference between a high 1300s and 1500s SAT likely shows up in sophistication of writing and speed of absorbing quantitative concepts. That would put one at a disadvantage for taking tests and writing papers in many types of classes.

I've also noticed that people at the 700+ SAT level don't understand why it's hard for people to to score that high. They don't really get how people didn't internalize algebra, etc. So there's not always sympathy to be found among peers.

Don’t underestimate disliking your major and the lack of motivation that comes with that for kids that are struggling.

My kid is at an Ivy in a STEM field and knows a decent number of kids in the major that basically hate it but the parents have decided it’s the only way to a good job.

There are classmates with 1550+ SAT scores that are struggling because you can no longer brute force through the classes and do well. It’s not intelligence, its that they desperately want to study something else.

And that is not very smart. Who tries to force their kid into a major/career they won't love? I get finances, but I'd much rather my kid major in Art History (if that's their passion) and focus on a path to a good career and instead choose a lifestyle they can support with it and be happy. Who cares if you make $200K at age 30 if you are miserable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:my DC just finished up frosh year at one of these schools - worried about academic intensity going in since was admitted TO and had a 1320 SAT. Said the biggest issue was impostor syndrome, or as she said “feeling like you don’t belong”. Kids need to push past that as the school saw a reason to admit, and as she said “most of the Sidwell kids I know paid for their scores - or at least the last 200 points”. Pretty funny comment but that’s what these kids think - that SAT scores can be rigged with extensive - and i do mean extensive - paid prep. Oh and she wound up with a 4.0 second semester, after a somewhat shaky start. Kamala will never let tests come back in California, and she may abolish testing nationwide. She is one smart and savvy cookie!

Obviously test scores can be raised with tons of expensive prep. But for most from DCUM, you have the option to raise your scores. In my experience, 4-8 hours of intensive 1-1 test prep (done after multiple practice tests, will net you your "ideal score". In reality, after the first 4-5 hours, you will likely land on your final score.
So if you do 1-1 test prep and cannot get higher than 1340 after 10 hours, then your kid has found their score. I'd then search for schools where they can excel, and hint, a T25 might not be the best fit for most kids like that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never pushed DC to do anything, but she had a real passion for getting into an Ivy. She's always chased "prestige," and lord I wish I know where she got it from. She's now at Yale and well...very very unhappy. Test optional 1380 SAT and 31 ACT. She's very creative, and I honestly see a future where she's in advertising, but she's too stuck in the MBB cycle to actually take up a passion. She hated her first semester academically and clawed to transfer. She stuck it out, but if I could go back, I really would've encouraged her to submit test scores and be at an appropriate fit.

The ones who are struggling at my kid’s ivy are the TO kids. They admit it to their closer friends. One is on academic probation its rough. TO was a failed experiment. My DC’s feel bad for the ones who can’t keep up, well below means.

A 1480 going TO to a T25 is fine, if they have 8-10 AP, and a 3.9+UW and the drive to be there. A 1350 is very different, unless there is a huge reason behind the Lower test score.

FWIW, I've never understood why you would want your kid in over their head. Goal is to learn and enjoy college. Much easier to do if you are at 50%+

Agree.