If your student struggled academically in college…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The difference between a high 1300s and 1500s SAT likely shows up in sophistication of writing and speed of absorbing quantitative concepts. That would put one at a disadvantage for taking tests and writing papers in many types of classes.

I've also noticed that people at the 700+ SAT level don't understand why it's hard for people to to score that high. They don't really get how people didn't internalize algebra, etc. So there's not always sympathy to be found among peers.

This is my kid. At least on math. I do not know what his score will be since he hasn’t taken the test but on practice tests, he rarely gets stiff wrong on any of the math sections. I heard him “helping” a friend and I was so disappointed in myself for missing this lack of empathy earlier. He totally couldn’t see why his friend didn’t “see” stuff he can. I don’t really care about his SAT math score. But I going to use the next two years to give him opportunities to see things from other people’s perspectives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I never pushed DC to do anything, but she had a real passion for getting into an Ivy. She's always chased "prestige," and lord I wish I know where she got it from. She's now at Yale and well...very very unhappy. Test optional 1380 SAT and 31 ACT. She's very creative, and I honestly see a future where she's in advertising, but she's too stuck in the MBB cycle to actually take up a passion. She hated her first semester academically and clawed to transfer. She stuck it out, but if I could go back, I really would've encouraged her to submit test scores and be at an appropriate fit.

Was the work legit too hard / too much or is it just stress and anxiety?

A big problem for me was that high school was so easy that I didn’t have to work hard, and I didn’t really know how to work hard when I got to college. But your DD must have worked hard in HS to get into Yale TO.

And let’s not forget, Yale thought she was capable of succeeding at Yale…

OP. Yes, I worry that not having good study skills because they've gotten by so far will be an issue. Guess we still have a year to try to help them develop better ones.

IMO, public schools do a terrible job of teaching kids good study skills.

+1000 and they start college at a large disadvantage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's the education system in the country being messed up. High schools supposed to get kids college ready, but they are not doing their job. They give out easy grades, the College board gives out high sat scores and high AP scores. Every one has high stats, and everyone seems happy.

When they are in college (any college, state uni or T25), they suddenly found out that they were under prepared. The valedictorian in high school suddenly found out they are getting their first C or D in life. Mental stress, depression follows.

Ivy leagues make it super easy for the students by inflating GPA to the moon. Everyone gets at least a B+. So they are fine.

But state univ are unforgiving with touch curves. Many kids at state univ suffer compared to ivy leagues.

ah What?! No. They give plenty of B-minus and Cs. Ds are almost never given but there are absolutely lots of low Bs and Cs. The profs list the ranges of test scores that correlate to what grade, and my premed S thinks it is funny to share with us where he falls each time. Cs happen to almost 1/3 of students in classic "weed out" courses. They curve STEM almost identically to the T15 private my other one attends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. The piece about test score matching is so interesting to me.

I’ve always dismissed the idea that test scores were a legit predictor of college performance. I’ve viewed them more as an indicator of a kid’s ability to excel at standardized tests, plus their access/commitment to good test prep. (I say this as someone who had excellent test scores but struggled at my top-tier college (probably due to lack of preparation at my relatively easy HS) and then excelled in grad school (no doubt due to the rigor of my college experience.))

So … as DC builds their list of schools, maybe we should be paying closer attention to where their SAT scores fall in the distribution for each schoo? Not just to try to predict admissions, but also to consider fit and college experience. What do others think? DC will still apply to reaches, of course. But if they end up accepted somewhere where their SAT is at the lower end of the range, that may be an indicator of their fit/success at that school. (I’m thinking about college grades but also about other opportunities - their connections with classmates and professors, extracurriculars and internships etc.)

Thoughts? Others’ experiences with this?

No, I absolutely wouldn't give test scores that power. I used to work for ETS on the SAT.

You would be making a determination on college choice based on a few multiple choice questions your child answered differently than another child. Those questions were selected for inclusion because they were tricky enough to trip up the majority of lower-scoring test-takers and trip up fewer ultra-high scoring test-takers. But that's not the same as requiring advanced skills to answer the question. Think about an ambiguously constructed question on a passage of literature. There could be two answers that could be arguably reasonable, but if the "right" one is picked most of the time by the ultra high scorers and not by the other kids, that's a useful question for the test. Picking the "wrong" one doesn't mean you couldn't do college level work at the same level as another child.

One of the funniest things I ever read was an opinion piece by a poet whose poem got incorporated into a middle school level standardized test. She felt the "correct" answer was wrong.

I was a National Merit Finalist. When I look at how my kids make mistakes on reading passage interpretation, they often pick an answer that's less likely but still defensible. Huge amounts of reading helped me have more of an ear or probabalistic guess at the right answer. But it doesn't mean my kids are less intelligent or capable than me. They may have less insight due to background. But college courses are supposed to provide background and allow some leeway for well-argued differences of opinion.

So SATs aren't everything. I think, as a person who was weaker in math, the math score is more indicative of success potential (especially for quant majors).

I think school fit is very important. It's more emotionally satisfactory to master a subject than to struggle. My oldest was WL at an Ivy that is legacy in our family. I'm glad now, that he didn't get in. It wasn't his top choice and not the best fit or best value. He knew that and did not send a LOCI.

This is why so many boys prefer math/eng/CS majors over humanities major. The answer to a question is either right or wrong. It's not nebulous, like some of the q & a on English portion of standardized tests.

FWIW, my DS is an IBDP grad, 780 on English part of SAT, 800 on Math. He did not find IBDP all that difficult, but he prefers the certainty of math.

IDK.. maybe, as PP stated, part of it is maturity and being able to pick up on nuances, which boys tend to not be good at.

Then they should stay the heck away from physics. During my physics and astronomy major I was expected to do tons of fermi problems all the dang time. Physics is precisely imprecise, and there really isn't always a 100% correct answer-that's a freshman's mindset. My seminar scores weren't just about the right score but my ability to present a problem and think on the spot with the changes the professor would ask. I actually think most of my education was teaching me that it is wrong to believe that what is classically taught is correct at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Can I post about myself? I struggled so hard I failed out. It was the only "away" college I could get into and desperately needed to get out of my parents house. It was crushing to have to go home after four months. I ultimately squeaked through community college and nearly killed myself doing it.

Sorry PP - I can understand the desperation to get away and the devastation of having to return. Hope things turned out ok for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Obviously test scores can be raised with tons of expensive prep. But for most from DCUM, you have the option to raise your scores. In my experience, 4-8 hours of intensive 1-1 test prep (done after multiple practice tests, will net you your "ideal score". In reality, after the first 4-5 hours, you will likely land on your final score.
So if you do 1-1 test prep and cannot get higher than 1340 after 10 hours, then your kid has found their score. I'd then search for schools where they can excel, and hint, a T25 might not be the best fit for most kids like that



What does the 1-1 test prep do for 4-8 hours that a student cannot do on their own using good study guides?

From watching my DC, the good test prep companies are very good at using practice tests to identify, at a very granular level, a specific kid’s weaknesses. Not just what topic, but exactly what types of questions they’re missing. They then provide strategies and “tricks” for answering those types of questions. You might be able to get some or even most of that from a good test prep book, but I suspect it would be much less efficient use of the student’s time.

Also, 4-8 hours of tutor time involves about 2-3 times that in taking practice tests, etc. Having a scheduled appointment with a tutor holds the student accountable and is huge for a kid that isn’t going to be self disciplined enough to put in that much time on their own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Obviously test scores can be raised with tons of expensive prep. But for most from DCUM, you have the option to raise your scores. In my experience, 4-8 hours of intensive 1-1 test prep (done after multiple practice tests, will net you your "ideal score". In reality, after the first 4-5 hours, you will likely land on your final score.
So if you do 1-1 test prep and cannot get higher than 1340 after 10 hours, then your kid has found their score. I'd then search for schools where they can excel, and hint, a T25 might not be the best fit for most kids like that

What does the 1-1 test prep do for 4-8 hours that a student cannot do on their own using good study guides?

From watching my DC, the good test prep companies are very good at using practice tests to identify, at a very granular level, a specific kid’s weaknesses. Not just what topic, but exactly what types of questions they’re missing. They then provide strategies and “tricks” for answering those types of questions. You might be able to get some or even most of that from a good test prep book, but I suspect it would be much less efficient use of the student’s time.

Also, 4-8 hours of tutor time involves about 2-3 times that in taking practice tests, etc. Having a scheduled appointment with a tutor holds the student accountable and is huge for a kid that isn’t going to be self disciplined enough to put in that much time on their own.
I'd love to know what the shift in test scores would be if we restricted students to 1 SAT, 1 ACT. I don't see why we should allow infinite retakes

[Anonymous]

I was so disappointed in myself for missing this lack of empathy earlier. He totally couldn’t see why his friend didn’t “see” stuff he can. I don’t really care about his SAT math score. But I going to use the next two years to give him opportunities to see things from other people’s perspectives.

The fact is that some people aren’t going to “get it” no matter how much “empathy” you have for them. They’re just less intelligent. That’s reality. That’s why highly selective schools have (or used to have) SAT score minimums. You’re not doing a kid a favor admitting them to a school where they can’t do the work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I was so disappointed in myself for missing this lack of empathy earlier. He totally couldn’t see why his friend didn’t “see” stuff he can. I don’t really care about his SAT math score. But I going to use the next two years to give him opportunities to see things from other people’s perspectives.

The fact is that some people aren’t going to “get it” no matter how much “empathy” you have for them. They’re just less intelligent. That’s reality. That’s why highly selective schools have (or used to have) SAT score minimums. You’re not doing a kid a favor admitting them to a school where they can’t do the work.

You can test for all of the knowledge and have a student understand most of the SAT. The US just has a terrible culture where we make STEM sound impossible and reduce our humanities subjects to a mess as thin as water.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. The piece about test score matching is so interesting to me.

I’ve always dismissed the idea that test scores were a legit predictor of college performance. I’ve viewed them more as an indicator of a kid’s ability to excel at standardized tests, plus their access/commitment to good test prep. (I say this as someone who had excellent test scores but struggled at my top-tier college (probably due to lack of preparation at my relatively easy HS) and then excelled in grad school (no doubt due to the rigor of my college experience.))

So … as DC builds their list of schools, maybe we should be paying closer attention to where their SAT scores fall in the distribution for each schoo? Not just to try to predict admissions, but also to consider fit and college experience. What do others think? DC will still apply to reaches, of course. But if they end up accepted somewhere where their SAT is at the lower end of the range, that may be an indicator of their fit/success at that school. (I’m thinking about college grades but also about other opportunities - their connections with classmates and professors, extracurriculars and internships etc.)

Thoughts? Others’ experiences with this?

No, I absolutely wouldn't give test scores that power. I used to work for ETS on the SAT.

You would be making a determination on college choice based on a few multiple choice questions your child answered differently than another child. Those questions were selected for inclusion because they were tricky enough to trip up the majority of lower-scoring test-takers and trip up fewer ultra-high scoring test-takers. But that's not the same as requiring advanced skills to answer the question. Think about an ambiguously constructed question on a passage of literature. There could be two answers that could be arguably reasonable, but if the "right" one is picked most of the time by the ultra high scorers and not by the other kids, that's a useful question for the test. Picking the "wrong" one doesn't mean you couldn't do college level work at the same level as another child.

One of the funniest things I ever read was an opinion piece by a poet whose poem got incorporated into a middle school level standardized test. She felt the "correct" answer was wrong.

I was a National Merit Finalist. When I look at how my kids make mistakes on reading passage interpretation, they often pick an answer that's less likely but still defensible. Huge amounts of reading helped me have more of an ear or probabalistic guess at the right answer. But it doesn't mean my kids are less intelligent or capable than me. They may have less insight due to background. But college courses are supposed to provide background and allow some leeway for well-argued differences of opinion.

So SATs aren't everything. I think, as a person who was weaker in math, the math score is more indicative of success potential (especially for quant majors).

I think school fit is very important. It's more emotionally satisfactory to master a subject than to struggle. My oldest was WL at an Ivy that is legacy in our family. I'm glad now, that he didn't get in. It wasn't his top choice and not the best fit or best value. He knew that and did not send a LOCI.

This is why so many boys prefer math/eng/CS majors over humanities major. The answer to a question is either right or wrong. It's not nebulous, like some of the q & a on English portion of standardized tests.

FWIW, my DS is an IBDP grad, 780 on English part of SAT, 800 on Math. He did not find IBDP all that difficult, but he prefers the certainty of math.

IDK.. maybe, as PP stated, part of it is maturity and being able to pick up on nuances, which boys tend to not be good at.

Boys are plenty good at nuance if it’s something they care about. Ask them about the nuances of their favorite video game or sports team and they can talk for hours. Ask them about the nuances of some poem or literary passage… nah they are probably just not interested. That’s like asking a woman to discuss the nuances of different pistol calibers.

They don't need to read anything and try to figure out what the author was feeling or thinking when explaining a video game.

DS hates stuff like that, even though they did manage to get a 780 on the SAT English section. At that age, boys aren't great at "explain what that person was thinking or feeling". I'm not sure they ever get good at that.

🙄 I guess those analogies went over your head.

“Nuance” is not just about being able to “explain what other people are thinking or feeling” ffs. Nuance can also relate to subtle distinctions of many different kinds, such as the qualities of an object or an activity.

Boys absolutely can explain what other people are thinking and feeling when it matters to them - especially if it’s in the context of a competitive situation. Men are very, very good at knowing what other men are thinking and feeling because that’s how, for thousands of years, you win wars. You predict what he’s going to do by knowing how he thinks (so you can stop it) and you win by making him feel defeated (ie, breaking his morale).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All the ivies are doing this now. Over 60% of the student body gets A. The rest are B (the lowest possible grade). The grade inflation is shooting to the moon.

If you could, get your kids into an ivy, not a state university.

https://www.browndailyherald.com/article/2022/04/brown-grade-inflation-continues-to-soar-data-shows

The Brown writers did a nice job with this piece. Consider me convinced!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:my DC just finished up frosh year at one of these schools - worried about academic intensity going in since was admitted TO and had a 1320 SAT. Said the biggest issue was impostor syndrome, or as she said “feeling like you don’t belong”. Kids need to push past that as the school saw a reason to admit, and as she said “most of the Sidwell kids I know paid for their scores - or at least the last 200 points”. Pretty funny comment but that’s what these kids think - that SAT scores can be rigged with extensive - and i do mean extensive - paid prep. Oh and she wound up with a 4.0 second semester, after a somewhat shaky start. Kamala will never let tests come back in California, and she may abolish testing nationwide. She is one smart and savvy cookie!

Yes you can pay to add 200 points to SAT scores. Why do you think so many parents pay for tutors to teach their kids the test?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I say it’s a few things. She says that her high school was harder than Yale, which does check out with where she went.

From how she’s talked to me about the situation, I think the academic intensity did take her by storm—as in the way students are laser focused on college compared to maybe other choices and how competitive it is to produce “good work.” She also had a pretty terrible housing situation and doesn’t really like the social scene for her reasons.

I try not to pry too much, unless she asks for guidance, but I do think it’s an academic culture mismatch

+1

My DD dropped out of CMU after her freshman year. She scored 1590 on the SAT, 36 on the ACT, and had 12 AP classes in HS. Her problem was that once she got to CMU, it was a very competitive/cut throat environment, and she could not handle just being average. My employer's CEO who graduated from Virginia Tech, had a talk with her and told her that there is no shame in transferring out of CMU. DD took a gap year, and she is now at VCU majoring in biomedical engineering, and she is very happy there. She has other things in her life, such as having a bf, time to practice her violin and piano. I am very happy for her.

hmm - a tiger mom perchance?

dp.. I made my kids practice their piano when they were taking lessons in ES. I let them quit when they were like 10 because they begged me to; I knew that they would regret it one day. And I was right. They are older teens n ow, and they regret quitting. They will sit at the piano once in a while and play something. My one kid even took up the guitar and said how much they regretted not continuing piano. Sometimes, parents really do know what's best for their kids and a bit of tiger parenting is warranted. My DC told me I should've pushed them more (they are now 19).
.

Kids always blame their parents for quitting music, sports, dance, you name it. They don’t want to admit to themselves that it was 100% their decision because it was too much work, too hard, and they weren’t great at whatever they quit. Don’t feel guilty. Tell her she should have pushed herself more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:my DC just finished up frosh year at one of these schools - worried about academic intensity going in since was admitted TO and had a 1320 SAT. Said the biggest issue was impostor syndrome, or as she said “feeling like you don’t belong”. Kids need to push past that as the school saw a reason to admit, and as she said “most of the Sidwell kids I know paid for their scores - or at least the last 200 points”. Pretty funny comment but that’s what these kids think - that SAT scores can be rigged with extensive - and i do mean extensive - paid prep. Oh and she wound up with a 4.0 second semester, after a somewhat shaky start. Kamala will never let tests come back in California, and she may abolish testing nationwide. She is one smart and savvy cookie!

Yes you can pay to add 200 points to SAT scores. Why do you think so many parents pay for tutors to teach their kids the test?

If you goes to Sidwell, and have to use private tutor, you already don't belong in Sidwell.

Private tutors may or may not get one from 1500 to 1550.

If you are 1320, just give it up, there is no hope for above 1500.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…do you think they would have done better at a different school? Anyone feel like their student overshot and should have attended a target rather than a reach?

Of course academic struggles could also be due to partying too much, mental health issues, athletic commitments, picking a bad-fit major, size of classes, etc.

Knowing what you know now, would you advise your student differently?

Can I post about myself? I struggled so hard I failed out. It was the only "away" college I could get into and desperately needed to get out of my parents house. It was crushing to have to go home after four months. I ultimately squeaked through community college and nearly killed myself doing it.

Did you get a degree that licensed you for a particular career? Nurse or technician?