Christian Zionism- please explain it to me

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jews have to control the historical land of Israel in order for Jesus to return to earth, and then Jesus will destroy the Jews along with any other non-believers.

It’s basically a story of a global holocaust of non-Christians. Good times!

Are the Jews aware of this plan?

My Israeli tour guide gives a lot of evangelical Christian tours as well. Basically regarding the differing beliefs, he tells them, if Jesus comes back - and what you think happens, I'll eat my hat. And if it doesn't happen, you will eat your hat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Would love an actual evangelical Christian to come on here and tell us if this is true. I thought Christians who loved Israel just loved it because of Jesus living there and Jesus being Jewish (though obviously historically that didn’t stop Christian persecution of Jews).

They definitely think with the Jews in control of Israel, the messiah will return.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/

The LifeWay poll found that 80 percent of evangelicals believed that the creation of Israel in 1948 was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy that would bring about Christ’s return.

[Anonymous]

Most christians do not believe in the a literal reading of the book of revelation. Even among evangelicals there are different beliefs about the rapture/tribulations/etc. I grew up in an evangelical church and we were taught about the rapture, but, we were taught the Jews were god's chosen people and they would be saved along with christians. Everybody else is sol apparently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jews have to control the historical land of Israel in order for Jesus to return to earth, and then Jesus will destroy the Jews along with any other non-believers.

It’s basically a story of a global holocaust of non-Christians. Good times!

+1 well summarized. It’s the only reason evangelical Christians are at all interested in what goes on in Israel.

Is this really the only reason though? Don’t you think most of these types of people find Muslims more foreign and less our kind of people than Jews? It’s not strictly true but most people think of Jewish Israeli as basically European. Judeo-Christian culture is a thing. Most of the Bible is the Torah. Christo-Islamic is not. I don’t think the affinity is all about the rapture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone please get the CITE for this? From Bible or wherever?

I have heard something similar too -- I am Jewish and I have had Christian friends tell me that they get "extra" points if they convert a Jew. I don't get that either.

Extra points as opposed to a Muslim?
This makes no sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Thank you. Is this what’s in the book of revelation verbatim ? Or is this how they interpret it?

It’s based on an interpretation of the Bible that arose in the late 1800s by fringe Christian sects and then was further popularized in recent decades by modern Evangelicals and the Left Behind book series.

Good overview of Dispensationalism:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/jews-and-the-rapture

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m an Arab American Christian and don’t understand the logic behind Christian Zionism. Is it based on the book of revelation - which most Catholic & Orthodox Christians believe it’s more symbolic in nature but Evangelicals seem to interpret it more concretely ?

Is it true that Evangelicals are justifying the killing of thousands of innocent civilians in Gaza because Christ’s second coming can only happen if all the Jews come back to Israel?

I’m asking a genuine question as I’m perplexed about all the support Israel gets from Evangelicals Christians in the US, which I have not seen from Christians in any other country.

They’re overwhelmingly white and see Israelis as whiter (closer to white, not identical to them) than the other side. That helps. Of course you would not see that association among Arab Christians that you’re familiar with as their ethnic association cuts the other way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Thank you. Is this what’s in the book of revelation verbatim ? Or is this how they interpret it?

You know I’ve tried to wade through Revelations and I just can’t. But that is what is accepted as truth among fundies and evangelicals (many of whom haven’t read the Bible at all). The Jewish people have to be there for the End Times.

The other pillar of this is a passage you will be familiar with, depending on which version of the Bible you grew up with: Genesis 1:26, which basically says that humans are to have dominion over the earth. In the ‘vangie reading, this is taken to mean that we can do whatever we want and it has led to the belief that to bring about the end times, we first have to destroy the earth, which is why they oppose clean air, water, soil, and why they don’t care if every species on the planet except us and the food we need to grow goes extinct.

Christians like that would be a thousand million times happier and better people if they understood what Jesus meant when he said “the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” It’s here and you can have it if we’re kind and caring. That’s it. That’s what Jesus wanted. Make Heaven happen on earth.

Woah.

Jew here. I can guarantee you that NO one thinks the Garden of Eden was in Israel. I've heard Sudan (Nile?) and Southern Iraq.

And Adam/Eve were NOT Jewish. The first Jews were Abraham & Sarah and they didn't have laws of Kashrut, etc (modern laws). Laws didn't exist before Moses. And the Temple didn't exist until Solomon (David's son). Ad modern Jews are nothing like the "Temple" Jews.

So putting all the Jews back to Israel because of the Garden of Eden/Genesis makes NO sense on so many levels.

I am guessing that it is because Jesus was Jewish??? Jesus was in Israel??? Jesus didn't leave Israel??? So since Jesus died in Israel, all Jews should die in Israel to be with Jesus?

I honestly have no idea.

For many “Christians Zionists,” and particularly for popular evangelists with significant clout within the Republican Party, their support for Israel is rooted in its role in the supposed end times: Jesus’ return to Earth, a bloody final battle at Armageddon, and Jesus ruling the world from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. In this scenario, war is not something to be avoided, but something inevitable, desired by God, and celebratory.

At the heart of Christian Zionism is not a love for Israel but rather Christian nationalism.

What happens to the Jews and Palestinians is, to put it very mildly, collateral damage. Christian Zionists are anticipating, and hoping for a war to end all wars, and a resulting Christian world that they claim will vanquish evil and bring peace. Only those who accept Jesus as their savior will benefit from these events that Christian Zionists claim the Bible predicts will happen. Nonbelievers — including Jews and Muslims — will not survive them.

I've known about this theology for a while, but seeing it written out turns my stomach. Isn't it nice to know that there are people in power that believe this shit????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Thank you. Is this what’s in the book of revelation verbatim ? Or is this how they interpret it?

You know I’ve tried to wade through Revelations and I just can’t. But that is what is accepted as truth among fundies and evangelicals (many of whom haven’t read the Bible at all). The Jewish people have to be there for the End Times.

The other pillar of this is a passage you will be familiar with, depending on which version of the Bible you grew up with: Genesis 1:26, which basically says that humans are to have dominion over the earth. In the ‘vangie reading, this is taken to mean that we can do whatever we want and it has led to the belief that to bring about the end times, we first have to destroy the earth, which is why they oppose clean air, water, soil, and why they don’t care if every species on the planet except us and the food we need to grow goes extinct.

Christians like that would be a thousand million times happier and better people if they understood what Jesus meant when he said “the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” It’s here and you can have it if we’re kind and caring. That’s it. That’s what Jesus wanted. Make Heaven happen on earth.

Woah.

Jew here. I can guarantee you that NO one thinks the Garden of Eden was in Israel. I've heard Sudan (Nile?) and Southern Iraq.

And Adam/Eve were NOT Jewish. The first Jews were Abraham & Sarah and they didn't have laws of Kashrut, etc (modern laws). Laws didn't exist before Moses. And the Temple didn't exist until Solomon (David's son). Ad modern Jews are nothing like the "Temple" Jews.

So putting all the Jews back to Israel because of the Garden of Eden/Genesis makes NO sense on so many levels.

I am guessing that it is because Jesus was Jewish??? Jesus was in Israel??? Jesus didn't leave Israel??? So since Jesus died in Israel, all Jews should die in Israel to be with Jesus?

I honestly have no idea.

For many “Christians Zionists,” and particularly for popular evangelists with significant clout within the Republican Party, their support for Israel is rooted in its role in the supposed end times: Jesus’ return to Earth, a bloody final battle at Armageddon, and Jesus ruling the world from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. In this scenario, war is not something to be avoided, but something inevitable, desired by God, and celebratory.

At the heart of Christian Zionism is not a love for Israel but rather Christian nationalism.

What happens to the Jews and Palestinians is, to put it very mildly, collateral damage. Christian Zionists are anticipating, and hoping for a war to end all wars, and a resulting Christian world that they claim will vanquish evil and bring peace. Only those who accept Jesus as their savior will benefit from these events that Christian Zionists claim the Bible predicts will happen. Nonbelievers — including Jews and Muslims — will not survive them.

I've known about this theology for a while, but seeing it written out turns my stomach. Isn't it nice to know that there are people in power that believe this shit????

Who is “in power” who *actually* believes this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Thank you. Is this what’s in the book of revelation verbatim ? Or is this how they interpret it?

You know I’ve tried to wade through Revelations and I just can’t. But that is what is accepted as truth among fundies and evangelicals (many of whom haven’t read the Bible at all). The Jewish people have to be there for the End Times.

The other pillar of this is a passage you will be familiar with, depending on which version of the Bible you grew up with: Genesis 1:26, which basically says that humans are to have dominion over the earth. In the ‘vangie reading, this is taken to mean that we can do whatever we want and it has led to the belief that to bring about the end times, we first have to destroy the earth, which is why they oppose clean air, water, soil, and why they don’t care if every species on the planet except us and the food we need to grow goes extinct.

Christians like that would be a thousand million times happier and better people if they understood what Jesus meant when he said “the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” It’s here and you can have it if we’re kind and caring. That’s it. That’s what Jesus wanted. Make Heaven happen on earth.

Woah.

Jew here. I can guarantee you that NO one thinks the Garden of Eden was in Israel. I've heard Sudan (Nile?) and Southern Iraq.

And Adam/Eve were NOT Jewish. The first Jews were Abraham & Sarah and they didn't have laws of Kashrut, etc (modern laws). Laws didn't exist before Moses. And the Temple didn't exist until Solomon (David's son). Ad modern Jews are nothing like the "Temple" Jews.

So putting all the Jews back to Israel because of the Garden of Eden/Genesis makes NO sense on so many levels.

I am guessing that it is because Jesus was Jewish??? Jesus was in Israel??? Jesus didn't leave Israel??? So since Jesus died in Israel, all Jews should die in Israel to be with Jesus?

I honestly have no idea.

For many “Christians Zionists,” and particularly for popular evangelists with significant clout within the Republican Party, their support for Israel is rooted in its role in the supposed end times: Jesus’ return to Earth, a bloody final battle at Armageddon, and Jesus ruling the world from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. In this scenario, war is not something to be avoided, but something inevitable, desired by God, and celebratory.

At the heart of Christian Zionism is not a love for Israel but rather Christian nationalism.

What happens to the Jews and Palestinians is, to put it very mildly, collateral damage. Christian Zionists are anticipating, and hoping for a war to end all wars, and a resulting Christian world that they claim will vanquish evil and bring peace. Only those who accept Jesus as their savior will benefit from these events that Christian Zionists claim the Bible predicts will happen. Nonbelievers — including Jews and Muslims — will not survive them.

I've known about this theology for a while, but seeing it written out turns my stomach. Isn't it nice to know that there are people in power that believe this shit????

I'm this PP, and yes, I have met evangelicals that believe this. It's not as rare as some would like to think

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jews have to control the historical land of Israel in order for Jesus to return to earth, and then Jesus will destroy the Jews along with any other non-believers.

It’s basically a story of a global holocaust of non-Christians. Good times!

Are the Jews aware of this plan?

Lapsed Lutheran here:
My wife grew up conservative Jewish. She was not aware of this until I told her after we got married. It somehow came up in conversation. I think she assumed that Christians who are “really into Israel” are so because of the historical setting. While that is true for more traditional denominations, I had to explain that Evangelicals are their own breed of crazy.

There are rightwing Jews who think they are using the gullible Evangelicals to their own ends. They don’t care what they think, because Evangelicals are suckers.

Martin Luther rolling in his grave

Everyone knows what Luther thought about Jews

Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen

Vom Schem Hamphoras und vom Geschlecht Christi

Are you aware of what “lapsed” means?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Thank you. Is this what’s in the book of revelation verbatim ? Or is this how they interpret it?

You know I’ve tried to wade through Revelations and I just can’t. But that is what is accepted as truth among fundies and evangelicals (many of whom haven’t read the Bible at all). The Jewish people have to be there for the End Times.

The other pillar of this is a passage you will be familiar with, depending on which version of the Bible you grew up with: Genesis 1:26, which basically says that humans are to have dominion over the earth. In the ‘vangie reading, this is taken to mean that we can do whatever we want and it has led to the belief that to bring about the end times, we first have to destroy the earth, which is why they oppose clean air, water, soil, and why they don’t care if every species on the planet except us and the food we need to grow goes extinct.

Christians like that would be a thousand million times happier and better people if they understood what Jesus meant when he said “the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” It’s here and you can have it if we’re kind and caring. That’s it. That’s what Jesus wanted. Make Heaven happen on earth.

Woah.

Jew here. I can guarantee you that NO one thinks the Garden of Eden was in Israel. I've heard Sudan (Nile?) and Southern Iraq.

And Adam/Eve were NOT Jewish. The first Jews were Abraham & Sarah and they didn't have laws of Kashrut, etc (modern laws). Laws didn't exist before Moses. And the Temple didn't exist until Solomon (David's son). Ad modern Jews are nothing like the "Temple" Jews.

So putting all the Jews back to Israel because of the Garden of Eden/Genesis makes NO sense on so many levels.

I am guessing that it is because Jesus was Jewish??? Jesus was in Israel??? Jesus didn't leave Israel??? So since Jesus died in Israel, all Jews should die in Israel to be with Jesus?

I honestly have no idea.

For many “Christians Zionists,” and particularly for popular evangelists with significant clout within the Republican Party, their support for Israel is rooted in its role in the supposed end times: Jesus’ return to Earth, a bloody final battle at Armageddon, and Jesus ruling the world from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. In this scenario, war is not something to be avoided, but something inevitable, desired by God, and celebratory.

At the heart of Christian Zionism is not a love for Israel but rather Christian nationalism.

What happens to the Jews and Palestinians is, to put it very mildly, collateral damage. Christian Zionists are anticipating, and hoping for a war to end all wars, and a resulting Christian world that they claim will vanquish evil and bring peace. Only those who accept Jesus as their savior will benefit from these events that Christian Zionists claim the Bible predicts will happen. Nonbelievers — including Jews and Muslims — will not survive them.

I've known about this theology for a while, but seeing it written out turns my stomach. Isn't it nice to know that there are people in power that believe this shit????

Who is “in power” who *actually* believes this?

+1
So many utter nut jobs on this thread, just spewing garbage left and right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone please get the CITE for this? From Bible or wherever?

I have heard something similar too -- I am Jewish and I have had Christian friends tell me that they get "extra" points if they convert a Jew. I don't get that either.

It is an interpretation of Revelations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it originated in the 1970s with a book called The Late Great Planet Earth and has subsequently grown into a kind of Evangelical dogma but mainstream Protestant and Catholic churches do not believe in it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And of course, all the Jews burn in the Rapture because they are not worthy to be in the kingdom of god for their betrayal.

good times.

And no one calls out this right wing anti-semitism.

No I was taught in evangelical church that Jews - since they are the chosen people- would get a second chance to follow Jesus in the end times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Thank you. Is this what’s in the book of revelation verbatim ? Or is this how they interpret it?

No. It's not in Revelation at all. Revelation is a piece of genre writing -- apocalyptic; a genre that was actually pretty popular 2k years ago. "Revelation," the last book in the Christian Bible, is mostly a political text condemning Roman rule, or certain aspects of it and leaders anyway, in a way that is cryptic enough to save the skins of the early Christians who wrote it and passed it about. They used the apocalypse genre to obscure things. Why do that? At the time, the people who agreed with what they had written in it, understood it pretty clearly. It was an IYKYK thing. The brilliance of it at the time -- using a crazy sounding end-of-the-world story (again, a popular genre at the time) to both hide and convey secret meaning at the same time -- is what causes so much trouble now. If the only way to understand it then was IYKYK, there is no chance any of us can fully understand it now. (But there are brilliant scholars who understand enough for us to know basically what the book is -- an anti Rome political tract -- and what the writer(s) was attempting to accomplish.) The inherently cryptic and strange nature of the work, combined with the fact that 2k years later we have zero context, allows all kinds of folks to advocate for any message they want to see in there. Like literally anything. And the Evangelicals have gone pretty nuts on it. But I think any literal interpretation of just about any part of the Bible is missing much of, if not the whole, point. I am a Christian who loves the bible, fwiw.

I think of the issue with ancient genre writing this way: Picture 2k years from now someone not only removed in time but far removed from the English language and the Western Civ of our time picks up, oh, say, The Lord of the Rings. And then they and their friends start arguing over whether or not there were elves and hobbits and what not "back then." The consensus becomes that people 2k years ago were completely ridiculous because they believed in these imaginary things. Well, no, of course not -- you have to take genre into account. And our imaginary readers don't know what fantasy writing is. People write about hobbits and elves for all kinds of reasons including entertainment, wanting to convey certain values, etc. Taken out of context The Lord of the Rings is nonsense. And of course that misses the whole point. But easy to do if you don't have the whole context.