Equality vs Equity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Except this isn’t how equity plays out in real life. The person on the left would be standing in a hole so he couldn’t see just like the others. When we can’t figure out how to bring others up, we hold people back to close the gap, particularly in public education.

Just stop. You keep trying to push this false narrative. No, the person on the left does not and is not really in a hole. This is just your paranoid narrative of “Those people are taking something from me so they can get a decent life.”

Yeah, no.

When a wealthy black person with strong family ties and community support is given a specific material advantage over a poor white person from a broken home and without any community support then how else would you describe it? Why is skin color more worthy of “equity” than economic class, education level or family circumstances?

Does the poor white person get frightened that they might be murdered when they’re pulled over on the side of the road by the police? Yeah, I didn’t think so. That wealthy black person does. Doesn’t matter how much money or community support they have. They’re still followed in the store, still live in fear for being brutalized by the police, and still looked at as being lesser than by many.

This is all political theater because the cops run the plate first and will know the black one is not a criminal but the one white might ht be because poverty has rap sheets

Sure. Whatever you need to tell yourself. The fear that every Black person in this country has when pulled over is just all in their heads. If they just keep their hands on the steering wheel and follow the police officer’s directions, nothing bad will happen. Right?

Exactly, follow instructions and everything will be ok. We are a minority as well and teach our kids this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Except this isn’t how equity plays out in real life. The person on the left would be standing in a hole so he couldn’t see just like the others. When we can’t figure out how to bring others up, we hold people back to close the gap, particularly in public education.

Just stop. You keep trying to push this false narrative. No, the person on the left does not and is not really in a hole. This is just your paranoid narrative of “Those people are taking something from me so they can get a decent life.”

Yeah, no.

When a wealthy black person with strong family ties and community support is given a specific material advantage over a poor white person from a broken home and without any community support then how else would you describe it? Why is skin color more worthy of “equity” than economic class, education level or family circumstances?

Does the poor white person get frightened that they might be murdered when they’re pulled over on the side of the road by the police? Yeah, I didn’t think so. That wealthy black person does. Doesn’t matter how much money or community support they have. They’re still followed in the store, still live in fear for being brutalized by the police, and still looked at as being lesser than by many.

This is all political theater because the cops run the plate first and will know the black one is not a criminal but the one white might ht be because poverty has rap sheets

Sure. Whatever you need to tell yourself. The fear that every Black person in this country has when pulled over is just all in their heads. If they just keep their hands on the steering wheel and follow the police officer’s directions, nothing bad will happen. Right?

Exactly, follow instructions and everything will be ok. We are a minority as well and teach our kids this.

Lol no

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Except that this cartoon always, always is used in the wrong circumstances.
Should children behind in reading (or math or handwriting, etc.) have extra help? Yes, absolutely. But should children already performing ahead of expectations be left to their own devices? No. They also need help to continue on their path, to the best of their abilities.
And that’s why I dislike this cartoon.

At my school at least, our CLTs include segments where we address both remediation and enrichment. Our differentiation is required to address learners below, on, and above target. We have a specialized enrichment program and kids stay after school for several hours to participate (while other kids receive remediation). I'm sorry that wasn't your experience, because it is happening in plenty of schools.

Not any that I’m aware of. All of our focus is on getting as many students as possible to pass standardized tests. Anyone we already know will pass receives nothing extra.

-public school teacher in VA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Virtually no one argues for equal outcomes— just a bogeyman.

Except for obscure, little-known figures like Ibram X. Kendi, who has no national platform of any sort, who explicitly argues for equal outcomes by racial group, to be enforced by whatever action is necessary. See, for instance, his proposed Department of Anti-Racism.

The concept of equal outcomes is precisely what distinguishes “equity” from “equality” in current usage, and the existence of different outcomes is the “evidence” that equality is just not good enough. That’s what it means; that’s all it means. To be sure, the unit by which equal outcomes is measured is a collective one—individuals don’t particularly matter to the equity advocates, they are just data points—but equal outcomes for racial groups in the aggregate is precisely what the “equity” concept is intended to achieve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Virtually no one argues for equal outcomes— just a bogeyman.

Except for obscure, little-known figures like Ibram X. Kendi, who has no national platform of any sort, who explicitly argues for equal outcomes by racial group, to be enforced by whatever action is necessary. See, for instance, his proposed Department of Anti-Racism.

The concept of equal outcomes is precisely what distinguishes “equity” from “equality” in current usage, and the existence of different outcomes is the “evidence” that equality is just not good enough. That’s what it means; that’s all it means. To be sure, the unit by which equal outcomes is measured is a collective one—individuals don’t particularly matter to the equity advocates, they are just data points—but equal outcomes for racial groups in the aggregate is precisely what the “equity” concept is intended to achieve.

And in practice in public education, this is done by eliminating honors levels (or just calling everyone “honors”), reducing or eliminating options for accelerated math, etc. If they can keep kids from getting “ahead” it doesn’t make other kids look as far “behind.” Equity is a noble goal but without proper funding, training, and sensible application, it’s just horse$hit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equality means everyone has the same opportunity but outcomes are different.

Equity means outcomes are the same. It will never be, and it sets everyone up for failure .

No. It doesn’t mean that every individual has equal outcomes. It means achieving more aggregate equal outcomes, I.e. women get paid the same as men, blacks have equal levels of home ownership, there is less income inequality across races, etc.

People who say it means equal outcomes for everyone have a narrow understanding of the concept. But they are tend to be the type of people who are frequently wrong but rarely in doubt.

Except the outcomes that you are citing are based almost entirely on people's choices. The differential in wages between men and women is almost entirely based on choice of profession, time taken out from the workforce to raise children, willingness to risk physical injury or death on the job, etc. Individual women working the same job as a man, with these factors the same make nearly the same. So your outcome means that as a society, we have to artificially boost the wages of certain professions, mandate state-funded childcare, etc. I don't think these policies (which have other negative consequences) are worth the "equity" that you desire.

Our society will address many inequalities with better K-12 education and more aggressive child welfare policies, not by artificially boosting people's income after they are miseducated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Virtually no one argues for equal outcomes— just a bogeyman.

Except for obscure, little-known figures like Ibram X. Kendi, who has no national platform of any sort, who explicitly argues for equal outcomes by racial group, to be enforced by whatever action is necessary. See, for instance, his proposed Department of Anti-Racism.

The concept of equal outcomes is precisely what distinguishes “equity” from “equality” in current usage, and the existence of different outcomes is the “evidence” that equality is just not good enough. That’s what it means; that’s all it means. To be sure, the unit by which equal outcomes is measured is a collective one—individuals don’t particularly matter to the equity advocates, they are just data points—but equal outcomes for racial groups in the aggregate is precisely what the “equity” concept is intended to achieve.

And in practice in public education, this is done by eliminating honors levels (or just calling everyone “honors”), reducing or eliminating options for accelerated math, etc. If they can keep kids from getting “ahead” it doesn’t make other kids look as far “behind.” Equity is a noble goal but without proper funding, training, and sensible application, it’s just horse$hit.

Yup, “honors for all” plus “grading for equity” plus elimination of standardized testing = equity. If you don’t have any objective metrics that show any difference among students, you have attained equity in the only way that could ever be attained. That’s not what most of the equity advocates actually want, but it is what they are going to get because it is the only way to do it, and equity is the most important consideration for decision makers at the moment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equality means everyone has the same opportunity but outcomes are different.

Equity means outcomes are the same. It will never be, and it sets everyone up for failure .

No. It doesn’t mean that every individual has equal outcomes. It means achieving more aggregate equal outcomes, I.e. women get paid the same as men, blacks have equal levels of home ownership, there is less income inequality across races, etc.

People who say it means equal outcomes for everyone have a narrow understanding of the concept. But they are tend to be the type of people who are frequently wrong but rarely in doubt.

Except the outcomes that you are citing are based almost entirely on people's choices. The differential in wages between men and women is almost entirely based on choice of profession, time taken out from the workforce to raise children, willingness to risk physical injury or death on the job, etc. Individual women working the same job as a man, with these factors the same make nearly the same. So your outcome means that as a society, we have to artificially boost the wages of certain professions, mandate state-funded childcare, etc. I don't think these policies (which have other negative consequences) are worth the "equity" that you desire.

Our society will address many inequalities with better K-12 education and more aggressive child welfare policies, not by artificially boosting people's income after they are miseducated.

How do you explain women and men in the same job making different wages?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equality means everyone has the same opportunity but outcomes are different.

Equity means outcomes are the same. It will never be, and it sets everyone up for failure .

No. It doesn’t mean that every individual has equal outcomes. It means achieving more aggregate equal outcomes, I.e. women get paid the same as men, blacks have equal levels of home ownership, there is less income inequality across races, etc.

People who say it means equal outcomes for everyone have a narrow understanding of the concept. But they are tend to be the type of people who are frequently wrong but rarely in doubt.

Except the outcomes that you are citing are based almost entirely on people's choices. The differential in wages between men and women is almost entirely based on choice of profession, time taken out from the workforce to raise children, willingness to risk physical injury or death on the job, etc. Individual women working the same job as a man, with these factors the same make nearly the same. So your outcome means that as a society, we have to artificially boost the wages of certain professions, mandate state-funded childcare, etc. I don't think these policies (which have other negative consequences) are worth the "equity" that you desire.

Our society will address many inequalities with better K-12 education and more aggressive child welfare policies, not by artificially boosting people's income after they are miseducated.

Appealing to “individual choice” misunderstands your opposition here. They view individual choice *as the problem* when it leads to inequitable outcomes. The person you are responding to made that explicit in their reference to “more aggregate equal outcomes.” In general, the equity crowd (to their credit) tends not to conceal this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Except that this cartoon always, always is used in the wrong circumstances.
Should children behind in reading (or math or handwriting, etc.) have extra help? Yes, absolutely. But should children already performing ahead of expectations be left to their own devices? No. They also need help to continue on their path, to the best of their abilities.
And that’s why I dislike this cartoon.

At my school at least, our CLTs include segments where we address both remediation and enrichment. Our differentiation is required to address learners below, on, and above target. We have a specialized enrichment program and kids stay after school for several hours to participate (while other kids receive remediation). I'm sorry that wasn't your experience, because it is happening in plenty of schools.

Not any that I’m aware of. All of our focus is on getting as many students as possible to pass standardized tests. Anyone we already know will pass receives nothing extra.

-public school teacher in VA

So true. My son always scored above the benchmark for his grade when tested at the beginning of the year. His teacher didn't need to worry about him and they didn't. He spent a lot of time reading books in his desk. I switched him to private school where his teachers found many ways he could improve. He was actually challenged there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Except that this cartoon always, always is used in the wrong circumstances.
Should children behind in reading (or math or handwriting, etc.) have extra help? Yes, absolutely. But should children already performing ahead of expectations be left to their own devices? No. They also need help to continue on their path, to the best of their abilities.
And that’s why I dislike this cartoon.

At my school at least, our CLTs include segments where we address both remediation and enrichment. Our differentiation is required to address learners below, on, and above target. We have a specialized enrichment program and kids stay after school for several hours to participate (while other kids receive remediation). I'm sorry that wasn't your experience, because it is happening in plenty of schools.

Not any that I’m aware of. All of our focus is on getting as many students as possible to pass standardized tests. Anyone we already know will pass receives nothing extra.

-public school teacher in VA

So true. My son always scored above the benchmark for his grade when tested at the beginning of the year. His teacher didn't need to worry about him and they didn't. He spent a lot of time reading books in his desk. I switched him to private school where his teachers found many ways he could improve. He was actually challenged there.

You are the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Equity = from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

You can see how it worked out in practice.

In other words, Marxism v. Capitalism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Except that this cartoon always, always is used in the wrong circumstances.
Should children behind in reading (or math or handwriting, etc.) have extra help? Yes, absolutely. But should children already performing ahead of expectations be left to their own devices? No. They also need help to continue on their path, to the best of their abilities.
And that’s why I dislike this cartoon.

At my school at least, our CLTs include segments where we address both remediation and enrichment. Our differentiation is required to address learners below, on, and above target. We have a specialized enrichment program and kids stay after school for several hours to participate (while other kids receive remediation). I'm sorry that wasn't your experience, because it is happening in plenty of schools.

That's how our DCPS did it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Except that this cartoon always, always is used in the wrong circumstances.
Should children behind in reading (or math or handwriting, etc.) have extra help? Yes, absolutely. But should children already performing ahead of expectations be left to their own devices? No. They also need help to continue on their path, to the best of their abilities.
And that’s why I dislike this cartoon.

At my school at least, our CLTs include segments where we address both remediation and enrichment. Our differentiation is required to address learners below, on, and above target. We have a specialized enrichment program and kids stay after school for several hours to participate (while other kids receive remediation). I'm sorry that wasn't your experience, because it is happening in plenty of schools.

Not any that I’m aware of. All of our focus is on getting as many students as possible to pass standardized tests. Anyone we already know will pass receives nothing extra.

-public school teacher in VA

So true. My son always scored above the benchmark for his grade when tested at the beginning of the year. His teacher didn't need to worry about him and they didn't. He spent a lot of time reading books in his desk. I switched him to private school where his teachers found many ways he could improve. He was actually challenged there.

You are the problem.

How is addressing her son's needs a problem? The problem is the system that caused her to need this change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Except this isn’t how equity plays out in real life. The person on the left would be standing in a hole so he couldn’t see just like the others. When we can’t figure out how to bring others up, we hold people back to close the gap, particularly in public education.

Just stop. You keep trying to push this false narrative. No, the person on the left does not and is not really in a hole. This is just your paranoid narrative of “Those people are taking something from me so they can get a decent life.”

Yeah, no.

When a wealthy black person with strong family ties and community support is given a specific material advantage over a poor white person from a broken home and without any community support then how else would you describe it? Why is skin color more worthy of “equity” than economic class, education level or family circumstances?

Does the poor white person get frightened that they might be murdered when they’re pulled over on the side of the road by the police? Yeah, I didn’t think so. That wealthy black person does. Doesn’t matter how much money or community support they have. They’re still followed in the store, still live in fear for being brutalized by the police, and still looked at as being lesser than by many.

This is all political theater because the cops run the plate first and will know the black one is not a criminal but the one white might ht be because poverty has rap sheets

Sure. Whatever you need to tell yourself. The fear that every Black person in this country has when pulled over is just all in their heads. If they just keep their hands on the steering wheel and follow the police officer’s directions, nothing bad will happen. Right?

Exactly, follow instructions and everything will be ok. We are a minority as well and teach our kids this.

You’re not Black.