Why is ante bellum racist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point in ranking atrocities? Don’t celebrate a lifestyle made possible by slavery. Don’t celebrate people who tried to exterminate others. Basically, don’t cosplay perpetrators of crimes against humanity.

Attempting to drive a wedge between different populations that have been brutally victimized and oppressed is shameful. Stop it.

The point is to make it clear that celebrating the South is every bit as offensive as celebrating Nazi Germany. That's not really a notion that's sunk in. And I think it's because people somehow think the Nazis were worse than the slavers.

You have not made that point clear at all. And in your failure to do so, you have offended other people, which calls into question your own ability to decide what is or isn't offensive.

There are better defensive of your position that don't involve such invidious comparisons. They were made on this very thread. Go back and read them. Please.

Do you agree that celebrating the antebellum South is equally offensive as celebrating Nazi Germany? I can't tell from your response whether we have a disagreement on the substance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point in ranking atrocities? Don’t celebrate a lifestyle made possible by slavery. Don’t celebrate people who tried to exterminate others. Basically, don’t cosplay perpetrators of crimes against humanity.

Attempting to drive a wedge between different populations that have been brutally victimized and oppressed is shameful. Stop it.

The point is to make it clear that celebrating the South is every bit as offensive as celebrating Nazi Germany. That's not really a notion that's sunk in. And I think it's because people somehow think the Nazis were worse than the slavers.

So your tactic to make that point is to minimize the Holocaust?

Calling the Holocaust horrific isn't minimizing it.

Delude yourself all you want. But we all saw what you did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point in ranking atrocities? Don’t celebrate a lifestyle made possible by slavery. Don’t celebrate people who tried to exterminate others. Basically, don’t cosplay perpetrators of crimes against humanity.

Attempting to drive a wedge between different populations that have been brutally victimized and oppressed is shameful. Stop it.

The point is to make it clear that celebrating the South is every bit as offensive as celebrating Nazi Germany. That's not really a notion that's sunk in. And I think it's because people somehow think the Nazis were worse than the slavers.

So your tactic to make that point is to minimize the Holocaust?

Calling the Holocaust horrific isn't minimizing it.

Delude yourself all you want. But we all saw what you did.

We did?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point in ranking atrocities? Don’t celebrate a lifestyle made possible by slavery. Don’t celebrate people who tried to exterminate others. Basically, don’t cosplay perpetrators of crimes against humanity.

Attempting to drive a wedge between different populations that have been brutally victimized and oppressed is shameful. Stop it.

The point is to make it clear that celebrating the South is every bit as offensive as celebrating Nazi Germany. That's not really a notion that's sunk in. And I think it's because people somehow think the Nazis were worse than the slavers.

So your tactic to make that point is to minimize the Holocaust?

Calling the Holocaust horrific isn't minimizing it.

Delude yourself all you want. But we all saw what you did.

We did?

We did

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point in ranking atrocities? Don’t celebrate a lifestyle made possible by slavery. Don’t celebrate people who tried to exterminate others. Basically, don’t cosplay perpetrators of crimes against humanity.

Attempting to drive a wedge between different populations that have been brutally victimized and oppressed is shameful. Stop it.

The point is to make it clear that celebrating the South is every bit as offensive as celebrating Nazi Germany. That's not really a notion that's sunk in. And I think it's because people somehow think the Nazis were worse than the slavers.

You have not made that point clear at all. And in your failure to do so, you have offended other people, which calls into question your own ability to decide what is or isn't offensive.

There are better defensive of your position that don't involve such invidious comparisons. They were made on this very thread. Go back and read them. Please.

Do you agree that celebrating the antebellum South is equally offensive as celebrating Nazi Germany? I can't tell from your response whether we have a disagreement on the substance.

You are continuing to be offensive. You don't see that the "substance" of my comment is your own offensiveness. Many people on this thread have dismissed others whom they found offensive. You probably have done so yourself. I am dismissing you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point in ranking atrocities? Don’t celebrate a lifestyle made possible by slavery. Don’t celebrate people who tried to exterminate others. Basically, don’t cosplay perpetrators of crimes against humanity.

Attempting to drive a wedge between different populations that have been brutally victimized and oppressed is shameful. Stop it.

The point is to make it clear that celebrating the South is every bit as offensive as celebrating Nazi Germany. That's not really a notion that's sunk in. And I think it's because people somehow think the Nazis were worse than the slavers.

So your tactic to make that point is to minimize the Holocaust?

Calling the Holocaust horrific isn't minimizing it.

Delude yourself all you want. But we all saw what you did.

We did?

We did

+1

[Anonymous]

Let me put it like this. I believe it's good that people condemn Nazis and condemn people who celebrate Nazis. I don't like that people celebrate antebellum Southerners, and I don't understand how people who hate Nazis can embrace Southerners. For me, the reason the two should be condemned in no uncertain terms is because they engaged in horrific acts against other humans.

I think my disconnect is that people appreciate the evil that was done to Jewish people by Nazis but, somehow, they don't see what was done to black people in the South as being quite as bad. I'm not trying to turn this into a competition. But I can't see how what was done to the slaves was a lesser evil than what was done to the Jews.

So, you get people like OP who just sees the antebellum South as people in pretty clothes. I think that's because he doesn't internalize slavery as being century after unrelenting century of torture, rape, murder, kidnapping, and brutalization from cradle to grave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me put it like this. I believe it's good that people condemn Nazis and condemn people who celebrate Nazis. I don't like that people celebrate antebellum Southerners, and I don't understand how people who hate Nazis can embrace Southerners. For me, the reason the two should be condemned in no uncertain terms is because they engaged in horrific acts against other humans.

I think my disconnect is that people appreciate the evil that was done to Jewish people by Nazis but, somehow, they don't see what was done to black people in the South as being quite as bad. I'm not trying to turn this into a competition. But I can't see how what was done to the slaves was a lesser evil than what was done to the Jews.

So, you get people like OP who just sees the antebellum South as people in pretty clothes. I think that's because he doesn't internalize slavery as being century after unrelenting century of torture, rape, murder, kidnapping, and brutalization from cradle to grave.

The disconnect is that you are comparing two events that are actually very different in terms of time, place, causes, victims and how American culture handled the immediate aftermath. A valid and non-offending comparison would require a long book by a very skilled (and brave) historian. Even then, it would be debated, because being offended is an emotional reaction, not a logical one.

It's much better to explain why something is offensive in emotional terms and impact to you personally without it comparing to some other thing that's offensive to other people.

[Anonymous]

Nazis suck.
Rich Southern plantation owners suck.

German population that stood by and watched the holocaust happen?
Southern population that stood by and watched slavery happen?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me put it like this. I believe it's good that people condemn Nazis and condemn people who celebrate Nazis. I don't like that people celebrate antebellum Southerners, and I don't understand how people who hate Nazis can embrace Southerners. For me, the reason the two should be condemned in no uncertain terms is because they engaged in horrific acts against other humans.

I think my disconnect is that people appreciate the evil that was done to Jewish people by Nazis but, somehow, they don't see what was done to black people in the South as being quite as bad. I'm not trying to turn this into a competition. But I can't see how what was done to the slaves was a lesser evil than what was done to the Jews.

So, you get people like OP who just sees the antebellum South as people in pretty clothes. I think that's because he doesn't internalize slavery as being century after unrelenting century of torture, rape, murder, kidnapping, and brutalization from cradle to grave.

+1. Hitler made his regime study what was being done to Black people in the Jim Crow South to better inform them how to deal with Jewish people.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/
https://billmoyers.com/story/hitler-america-nazi-race-law/
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/30/how-american-racism-influenced-hitler
https://time.com/4703586/nazis-america-race-law/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nazis suck.
Rich Southern plantation owners suck.

German population that stood by and watched the holocaust happen?
Southern population that stood by and watched slavery happen?

One of the more interesting, non offensive comparisons is to ask what happened to both Southern abolitionists and anti-Nazi protesters. For the south, look at southern preachers who opposed slavery. For the Nazis, look at what newspaper the Nazis closed first, what happened to the leadership of opposition parties by 1934 and the White Rose Society.

"Standing by" takes a whole new and far more sober meaning when you look at what actually happened to those who didn't. The graveyards are full of failed heros. Sadly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nazis suck.
Rich Southern plantation owners suck.

German population that stood by and watched the holocaust happen?
Southern population that stood by and watched slavery happen?

I'd put German and Confederate soldiers in the same culpability category. Run of the mill southern citizens probably benefited more from slavery than run of the mill German citizens benefited from the Holocaust.

But again, I think the more salient point for this discussion is that celebrating antebellum Southern culture should, like celebrating Nazism, be basically unspeakable in polite society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me put it like this. I believe it's good that people condemn Nazis and condemn people who celebrate Nazis. I don't like that people celebrate antebellum Southerners, and I don't understand how people who hate Nazis can embrace Southerners. For me, the reason the two should be condemned in no uncertain terms is because they engaged in horrific acts against other humans.

I think my disconnect is that people appreciate the evil that was done to Jewish people by Nazis but, somehow, they don't see what was done to black people in the South as being quite as bad. I'm not trying to turn this into a competition. But I can't see how what was done to the slaves was a lesser evil than what was done to the Jews.

So, you get people like OP who just sees the antebellum South as people in pretty clothes. I think that's because he doesn't internalize slavery as being century after unrelenting century of torture, rape, murder, kidnapping, and brutalization from cradle to grave.

+1. Hitler made his regime study what was being done to Black people in the Jim Crow South to better inform them how to deal with Jewish people.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/
https://billmoyers.com/story/hitler-america-nazi-race-law/
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/30/how-american-racism-influenced-hitler
https://time.com/4703586/nazis-america-race-law/

In terms of timelines, Kristallnacht (1938) wasn't really all that far removed from Appomattox (1865). At any rate, they're closer to each other than to the present day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me put it like this. I believe it's good that people condemn Nazis and condemn people who celebrate Nazis. I don't like that people celebrate antebellum Southerners, and I don't understand how people who hate Nazis can embrace Southerners. For me, the reason the two should be condemned in no uncertain terms is because they engaged in horrific acts against other humans.

I think my disconnect is that people appreciate the evil that was done to Jewish people by Nazis but, somehow, they don't see what was done to black people in the South as being quite as bad. I'm not trying to turn this into a competition. But I can't see how what was done to the slaves was a lesser evil than what was done to the Jews.

So, you get people like OP who just sees the antebellum South as people in pretty clothes. I think that's because he doesn't internalize slavery as being century after unrelenting century of torture, rape, murder, kidnapping, and brutalization from cradle to grave.

+1. Hitler made his regime study what was being done to Black people in the Jim Crow South to better inform them how to deal with Jewish people.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/
https://billmoyers.com/story/hitler-america-nazi-race-law/
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/30/how-american-racism-influenced-hitler
https://time.com/4703586/nazis-america-race-law/

In terms of timelines, Kristallnacht (1938) wasn't really all that far removed from Appomattox (1865). At any rate, they're closer to each other than to the present day.

In terms of world historical change over that short period compared to now, you are living a life a lot more like an average 1938 German than an 1865 Southerner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me put it like this. I believe it's good that people condemn Nazis and condemn people who celebrate Nazis. I don't like that people celebrate antebellum Southerners, and I don't understand how people who hate Nazis can embrace Southerners. For me, the reason the two should be condemned in no uncertain terms is because they engaged in horrific acts against other humans.

I think my disconnect is that people appreciate the evil that was done to Jewish people by Nazis but, somehow, they don't see what was done to black people in the South as being quite as bad. I'm not trying to turn this into a competition. But I can't see how what was done to the slaves was a lesser evil than what was done to the Jews.

So, you get people like OP who just sees the antebellum South as people in pretty clothes. I think that's because he doesn't internalize slavery as being century after unrelenting century of torture, rape, murder, kidnapping, and brutalization from cradle to grave.

+1. Hitler made his regime study what was being done to Black people in the Jim Crow South to better inform them how to deal with Jewish people.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/
https://billmoyers.com/story/hitler-america-nazi-race-law/
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/30/how-american-racism-influenced-hitler
https://time.com/4703586/nazis-america-race-law/

In terms of timelines, Kristallnacht (1938) wasn't really all that far removed from Appomattox (1865). At any rate, they're closer to each other than to the present day.

In terms of world historical change over that short period compared to now, you are living a life a lot more like an average 1938 German than an 1865 Southerner.

An important point (to me at least) is that some of us have relationships with people who were DIRECTLY AFFECTED by the Holocaust/WWII. There are people still alive TODAY who were ACTUAL victims of the Holocaust, not descendants of the victims claiming their ancestors suffering as their own. It is actually NOT comparable.

We all agree that American slavery was evil and the ramifications are still felt today, but despite your feelings it did not happen to YOU.