The Crown - season 4

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it terrible that I sort-of feel that Princess Diana's narrative is the only one everyone appears to internalize regarding the Wales' marriage drama?

Do we know for a fact that Charles carried on an active affair with Camilla during the entirety of their marriage? What about Princess Diana's documented mental health issues?

To me, it appears that more than the cheating, Princess Diana had major immaturity issues. Charles needed a partner and she was always crying and creating drama.

She was 19.

Exactly. She was 19 and had no support or real love from Charles, her only lifeline in a dysfunctional, insular, generally unhappy and cynical family. I am fascinated by the royals, but it’s messed up that a family dynamic can revolve solely around one person at the expense at everyone around them. For what? To remain in power, preserve the family heritage in an outdated institution? They were all miserable despite having every privilege in the world.

Yes but she consented to the marriage, as did her family. Is it really on the institution of the monarchy to ensure their interpersonal affairs were handled appropriately? Don't get me wrong, I stan Princess Di, I just feel like her being a mismatch for the royal family isn't necessarily a blemish on the institution itself.

Had Princess Di had a loving supportive family like Kate does, she would have had an easier transition and may have handled the Charles' affair drama better.

Diana was very close with her sisters, so she had ties with her family. But what was true at that time and seems less true for Kate, is that entering the royal family means cutting off aspects of your birth family life. Only members of the royal family are permitted at certain events, including Christmas celebrations. Diana’s first few weeks at Kensington Palace were completely alone.

The Windsors are not a warm family - or functional family - and that was really hard on Diana. Kate seemingly has a good relationship with William, but in addition, the Middletons seem to have been brought into Windsor / Royal family events in a way the Spencer’s were not. You see them at events with Kate, including formal functions ans holidays. And certainly William is a much more supportive spouse than Charles. Goodness, that quote from Charles (IRL) when asked if he was in love with Diana .... his response: “Whatever love means ...”. Yikes.

The Middletons are definitely much more involved than Diana's family was allowed to be. I mean William even helped them purchase Bucklebury (sp?) which Charles would never do. I think there is genuine affection there between William and the Middletons and honestly as someone whose father passed away before I got married not having two living in-laws changes the dynamic a lot. My dad was super nice and warm so this wouldn't be the case, but I hear a lot of my male friends complain about their FILs having too many opinions and being a tad bit overbearing. I can only imagine what that would be like with a MIL ESPECIALLY when your MIL is the Queen, someone who has never really had to answer to anyone. So Kate does not have to deal with that. And I also think that Kate likely went into their marriage aware that literally every male role model of his cheated (his dad, his grandfather, his great-grandfather) and accepted that as part of the deal in a way that Diana did not.

This is true. Here are the positive differences between Kate and Diana:

Kate was raised in a wholesome, tightknit and loving family with incredibly supportive parents. That wholesome childhood seems to have paid off as she appears to be an intelligent, levelheaded and normal young woman with plenty of self confidence and self esteem to take on a future King as a husband and all that comes with that. It also helped that William was very cautious after watching his parents marriage implode and took his time in training her and ensuring that she understood what a marriage with him would mean. Kate must have gone in with her eyes wide open and no fantasy expectations. She did not expect to have a "normal" marriage with her husband who is a future king. As others have mentioned, it would be extremely naive to believe William is a normal husband who will do chores around the house or even stay faithful 100%. Even before marriage William has been known to mess around with other women, so Kate would have had no expectation of his fidelity after marriage. She appears to give him a lot of deference and time to do whatever he pleases in addition to providing a nice and nurturing home for their children.

Kate is mature and has her eyes wide open. She doesn't expect a fairytale marriage and certainly doesn't expect the famously dysfunctional and cold Windsors to behave like cuddly teddy bears. She gets her emotional needs met through her children, William and her own family as evidenced by her many trips to her mother's house with her children. She is also patient if William is off blowing off steam at a ski trip with some friends and may fool around with another woman. She does not start drama or set unreasonable expectations. Meanwhile, she attends to her official duties with aplomb and is dedicated to the institution and its continuation.

Poor Princess Di, however, thought her marriage was a fairytale. She wanted Charles to give her all his attention and revere her and be faithful to her not realizing that's just not what people like him do. She grew up in a broken home and was a troubled young girl with depression and self esteem issues. She expected the BRF to become a real family, give her love and hugs and take care of her emotional needs. It was just...tragic and sad. I wish she got all of that but clearly thats not who the Windsors are.

This makes sense. Both Charles and Diana were very broken people from very broken homes, and neither had a realistic idea of what their marriage would look like. They were also just very mismatched. Diana craved the spotlight and was like a teacup with a hole at the bottom.

Unfortunately, Harry's wife has some similar issues with a very dysfunctional family, immaturity, self esteem issues, and a disconnect with reality. When they became engaged, I recall that Harry said something along the lines of now Meghan would have a real family, meaning she would have the BRF as a real family since she never had that with her own. That really struck me as a red flag, especially given Harry's lack of maturity and mental stability. Plus the BRF isn't likely to be anyone's warm and loving family. Those two had major drama and conflict even before they married and it's been nonstop since. Unfortunately it looks like he inherited his mother's mental health issues and it's not like his father's side is the pinnacle of mental health. It's a repeat of two very broken people marrying each other without fixing their issues. I hope he and his wife find a way to improve their mental health and find some peace.

100%

I was going to add too that Meghan, unfortunately appears to repeat the same mistakes Diana made even though on paper she is much older and has a lot of professional and media experience. However, I guess age doesn't necessarily increase maturity or fix mental health problems.

Like Diana, Meghan comes from a deeply dysfunctional and broken home and her survival instinct seems to be the pursuit of perfectionism and to seek acceptance through positive press and fame. She seems drawn to the image of a "people saver" and thrives on being the center of attention at the same time having no patience for any criticism or push back. She too appears to have expected the Windsors and her role as a royal to be something it is not. Being a Duchess does not mean you get to be a magic fairy princess with an unlimited budget to do whatever you please whenever you want it. It especially does not mean YOU are the center or the star.

She broke when she was met with resistance inside the BRF and was told to stay back and adhere to the strict hierarchy. She struggled with their coldness and the routine of the job and promptly fled. Prince Harry appears to have even less maturity and worse mental health than she does.

They are two immature broken people going around in circles unaware of how they make their own problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it terrible that I sort-of feel that Princess Diana's narrative is the only one everyone appears to internalize regarding the Wales' marriage drama?

Do we know for a fact that Charles carried on an active affair with Camilla during the entirety of their marriage? What about Princess Diana's documented mental health issues?

To me, it appears that more than the cheating, Princess Diana had major immaturity issues. Charles needed a partner and she was always crying and creating drama.

She was 19.

Exactly. She was 19 and had no support or real love from Charles, her only lifeline in a dysfunctional, insular, generally unhappy and cynical family. I am fascinated by the royals, but it’s messed up that a family dynamic can revolve solely around one person at the expense at everyone around them. For what? To remain in power, preserve the family heritage in an outdated institution? They were all miserable despite having every privilege in the world.

Yes but she consented to the marriage, as did her family. Is it really on the institution of the monarchy to ensure their interpersonal affairs were handled appropriately? Don't get me wrong, I stan Princess Di, I just feel like her being a mismatch for the royal family isn't necessarily a blemish on the institution itself.

Had Princess Di had a loving supportive family like Kate does, she would have had an easier transition and may have handled the Charles' affair drama better.

Diana was very close with her sisters, so she had ties with her family. But what was true at that time and seems less true for Kate, is that entering the royal family means cutting off aspects of your birth family life. Only members of the royal family are permitted at certain events, including Christmas celebrations. Diana’s first few weeks at Kensington Palace were completely alone.

The Windsors are not a warm family - or functional family - and that was really hard on Diana. Kate seemingly has a good relationship with William, but in addition, the Middletons seem to have been brought into Windsor / Royal family events in a way the Spencer’s were not. You see them at events with Kate, including formal functions ans holidays. And certainly William is a much more supportive spouse than Charles. Goodness, that quote from Charles (IRL) when asked if he was in love with Diana .... his response: “Whatever love means ...”. Yikes.

The Middletons are definitely much more involved than Diana's family was allowed to be. I mean William even helped them purchase Bucklebury (sp?) which Charles would never do. I think there is genuine affection there between William and the Middletons and honestly as someone whose father passed away before I got married not having two living in-laws changes the dynamic a lot. My dad was super nice and warm so this wouldn't be the case, but I hear a lot of my male friends complain about their FILs having too many opinions and being a tad bit overbearing. I can only imagine what that would be like with a MIL ESPECIALLY when your MIL is the Queen, someone who has never really had to answer to anyone. So Kate does not have to deal with that. And I also think that Kate likely went into their marriage aware that literally every male role model of his cheated (his dad, his grandfather, his great-grandfather) and accepted that as part of the deal in a way that Diana did not.

This is true. Here are the positive differences between Kate and Diana:

Kate was raised in a wholesome, tightknit and loving family with incredibly supportive parents. That wholesome childhood seems to have paid off as she appears to be an intelligent, levelheaded and normal young woman with plenty of self confidence and self esteem to take on a future King as a husband and all that comes with that. It also helped that William was very cautious after watching his parents marriage implode and took his time in training her and ensuring that she understood what a marriage with him would mean. Kate must have gone in with her eyes wide open and no fantasy expectations. She did not expect to have a "normal" marriage with her husband who is a future king. As others have mentioned, it would be extremely naive to believe William is a normal husband who will do chores around the house or even stay faithful 100%. Even before marriage William has been known to mess around with other women, so Kate would have had no expectation of his fidelity after marriage. She appears to give him a lot of deference and time to do whatever he pleases in addition to providing a nice and nurturing home for their children.

Kate is mature and has her eyes wide open. She doesn't expect a fairytale marriage and certainly doesn't expect the famously dysfunctional and cold Windsors to behave like cuddly teddy bears. She gets her emotional needs met through her children, William and her own family as evidenced by her many trips to her mother's house with her children. She is also patient if William is off blowing off steam at a ski trip with some friends and may fool around with another woman. She does not start drama or set unreasonable expectations. Meanwhile, she attends to her official duties with aplomb and is dedicated to the institution and its continuation.

Poor Princess Di, however, thought her marriage was a fairytale. She wanted Charles to give her all his attention and revere her and be faithful to her not realizing that's just not what people like him do. She grew up in a broken home and was a troubled young girl with depression and self esteem issues. She expected the BRF to become a real family, give her love and hugs and take care of her emotional needs. It was just...tragic and sad. I wish she got all of that but clearly thats not who the Windsors are.

This makes sense. Both Charles and Diana were very broken people from very broken homes, and neither had a realistic idea of what their marriage would look like. They were also just very mismatched. Diana craved the spotlight and was like a teacup with a hole at the bottom.

Unfortunately, Harry's wife has some similar issues with a very dysfunctional family, immaturity, self esteem issues, and a disconnect with reality. When they became engaged, I recall that Harry said something along the lines of now Meghan would have a real family, meaning she would have the BRF as a real family since she never had that with her own. That really struck me as a red flag, especially given Harry's lack of maturity and mental stability. Plus the BRF isn't likely to be anyone's warm and loving family. Those two had major drama and conflict even before they married and it's been nonstop since. Unfortunately it looks like he inherited his mother's mental health issues and it's not like his father's side is the pinnacle of mental health. It's a repeat of two very broken people marrying each other without fixing their issues. I hope he and his wife find a way to improve their mental health and find some peace.

100%

I was going to add too that Meghan, unfortunately appears to repeat the same mistakes Diana made even though on paper she is much older and has a lot of professional and media experience. However, I guess age doesn't necessarily increase maturity or fix mental health problems.

Like Diana, Meghan comes from a deeply dysfunctional and broken home and her survival instinct seems to be the pursuit of perfectionism and to seek acceptance through positive press and fame. She seems drawn to the image of a "people saver" and thrives on being the center of attention at the same time having no patience for any criticism or push back. She too appears to have expected the Windsors and her role as a royal to be something it is not. Being a Duchess does not mean you get to be a magic fairy princess with an unlimited budget to do whatever you please whenever you want it. It especially does not mean YOU are the center or the star.

She broke when she was met with resistance inside the BRF and was told to stay back and adhere to the strict hierarchy. She struggled with their coldness and the routine of the job and promptly fled. Prince Harry appears to have even less maturity and worse mental health than she does.

They are two immature broken people going around in circles unaware of how they make their own problems.

+1, this exactly

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

I don’t think he lacks moral fiber. It’s miserable that he wasn’t allowed to marry the woman he loved in the first place, and was then forced to take another wife and produce an heir. In one sense, he actually has some moral fiber to have remained loyal to Camilla at least. That said, his marriage to Diana was a train wreck and it was especially regrettable how it destroyed her life - she was, to use Diana’s own words, a sacrificial lamb.

My understanding is that Camilla didn't want to marry Charles way back when, anyway. She fell in love with her first husband. So it wasn't entirely the family's doing that they didn't end up together.

[Anonymous]

I just blame Charles. Camilla was flighty. He proposed to Diana, he could have kept looking or actually dated her to get to know her. There is a huge difference between older woman, already attached and seeing someone else, and 19 year old virgin. He has no self control, is self destructive, and mis treats people. Don’t forget Andrew Parker Bowles and Camilla’s children were also wronged by Charles.

[Anonymous]

I think the least the Queen could do was prevent Camilla from being Princess of Wales and won't ever be "Queen." I wonder if this makes Charles "suffer"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just blame Charles. Camilla was flighty. He proposed to Diana, he could have kept looking or actually dated her to get to know her. There is a huge difference between older woman, already attached and seeing someone else, and 19 year old virgin. He has no self control, is self destructive, and mis treats people. Don’t forget Andrew Parker Bowles and Camilla’s children were also wronged by Charles.

What happened with the Parker Bowles kids? What’s wrong with Camilla is she stood by him while he mistreated her kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the least the Queen could do was prevent Camilla from being Princess of Wales and won't ever be "Queen." I wonder if this makes Charles "suffer"?

The least the queen could do? She could have just let him marry the non virgin the first place. This whole mess is due to her error in judgement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

Maybe it’s something kings strive to do:

Off topic but...what is this picture? That looks like a coca-cola bottle.

https://englishhistory.net/tudor/monarchs/henry-viii-wives/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

Maybe it’s something kings strive to do:

Off topic but...what is this picture? That looks like a coca-cola bottle.

https://englishhistory.net/tudor/monarchs/henry-viii-wives/

Doesn't explain the coca-cola bottle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the least the Queen could do was prevent Camilla from being Princess of Wales and won't ever be "Queen." I wonder if this makes Charles "suffer"?

Fortunately, she does not have the ability to do that. Camilla is the Princess of Wales and when Charles becomes king, Camilla will be Queen Consort. Even if she chooses to not use the title.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the least the Queen could do was prevent Camilla from being Princess of Wales and won't ever be "Queen." I wonder if this makes Charles "suffer"?

The least the queen could do? She could have just let him marry the non virgin the first place. This whole mess is due to her error in judgement.

back up here - it was ROYAL PROTOCOL not the Queen. Long established over generations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the least the Queen could do was prevent Camilla from being Princess of Wales and won't ever be "Queen." I wonder if this makes Charles "suffer"?

The least the queen could do? She could have just let him marry the non virgin the first place. This whole mess is due to her error in judgement.

back up here - it was ROYAL PROTOCOL not the Queen. Long established over generations.

It may have been protocol, but that doesn't mean that it was the right thing to do. She was not legally bound to deny Charles. She could have agreed if that is what she wanted to do. But the courtiers have always ruled her, so there's that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

Maybe it’s something kings strive to do:

Off topic but...what is this picture? That looks like a coca-cola bottle.

https://englishhistory.net/tudor/monarchs/henry-viii-wives/

Doesn't explain the coca-cola bottle.

OMG - I didn't even see that (looking on my phone).

If you are king, you should treat your wives poorly.....before drinking a coke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I keep trying and put myself into Diana’s shoes. I have a wonderful supportive family. But seriously if your husband has another girlfriend that he’s majorly in love with, there’s not enough self confidence, maturity, perspective, or self love in the world to make that not a living hell.

I think if she had been much older, with a lot more life experience and self awareness, they could have come to an amicable business partnership In the end. The real shame in the whole thing was how young and naive she was at the time of her marriage. Of course she wanted and expected the fantasy “happily ever after,” she was 19!

However, watching the Netflix doc Diana: In Her Own Words made me realize how much she liked the “people” side of her job and how good she was at it, esp. compared to the other royals. Of all the senior royals including the Queen, Philip, Charles, and Anne, she was the best by far at connecting with regular people and managing the media’s portrayal of her. If the royals had been smarter and had any kind of PR or business sense, they would have said “Godspeed and KOKO” instead of being so jealous of her and erecting obstacles in her path. If Diana had been older, she would have been more capable of dismissing and ignoring Charles’ tantrums. They might have been able to get to a point where she no longer longed for his love or felt jealous of his affair, which would have freed her up emotionally to pursue her own relationship outside of the marriage and be happy.

[Anonymous]

Apparently Camilla is watching this. Carry on.
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/11/duchess-camilla-the-crown?itm_content=footer-recirc