The Crown - season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I keep trying and put myself into Diana’s shoes. I have a wonderful supportive family. But seriously if your husband has another girlfriend that he’s majorly in love with, there’s not enough self confidence, maturity, perspective, or self love in the world to make that not a living hell.

Not to be brutal but Camilla was always a bit of a horse and Diana was beautiful. She may have foolishly thought this could make a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The way he screamed at her about the NY tour was seriously disturbing

You know that was fictionalized, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it terrible that I sort-of feel that Princess Diana's narrative is the only one everyone appears to internalize regarding the Wales' marriage drama?

Do we know for a fact that Charles carried on an active affair with Camilla during the entirety of their marriage? What about Princess Diana's documented mental health issues?

To me, it appears that more than the cheating, Princess Diana had major immaturity issues. Charles needed a partner and she was always crying and creating drama.

She was 19.

Exactly. She was 19 and had no support or real love from Charles, her only lifeline in a dysfunctional, insular, generally unhappy and cynical family. I am fascinated by the royals, but it’s messed up that a family dynamic can revolve solely around one person at the expense at everyone around them. For what? To remain in power, preserve the family heritage in an outdated institution? They were all miserable despite having every privilege in the world.

Yes but she consented to the marriage, as did her family. Is it really on the institution of the monarchy to ensure their interpersonal affairs were handled appropriately? Don't get me wrong, I stan Princess Di, I just feel like her being a mismatch for the royal family isn't necessarily a blemish on the institution itself.

Had Princess Di had a loving supportive family like Kate does, she would have had an easier transition and may have handled the Charles' affair drama better.

Diana was very close with her sisters, so she had ties with her family. But what was true at that time and seems less true for Kate, is that entering the royal family means cutting off aspects of your birth family life. Only members of the royal family are permitted at certain events, including Christmas celebrations. Diana’s first few weeks at Kensington Palace were completely alone.

The Windsors are not a warm family - or functional family - and that was really hard on Diana. Kate seemingly has a good relationship with William, but in addition, the Middletons seem to have been brought into Windsor / Royal family events in a way the Spencer’s were not. You see them at events with Kate, including formal functions ans holidays. And certainly William is a much more supportive spouse than Charles. Goodness, that quote from Charles (IRL) when asked if he was in love with Diana .... his response: “Whatever love means ...”. Yikes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

Maybe it’s something kings strive to do:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

I don’t think he lacks moral fiber. It’s miserable that he wasn’t allowed to marry the woman he loved in the first place, and was then forced to take another wife and produce an heir. In one sense, he actually has some moral fiber to have remained loyal to Camilla at least. That said, his marriage to Diana was a train wreck and it was especially regrettable how it destroyed her life - she was, to use Diana’s own words, a sacrificial lamb.

I think what makes him repulsive is that he emotionally abused and got involved an innocent victim into his mess. He could've stood his ground and not married her.

He could have, upon marriage to her, committed to her and decided to make the best of the situation.

He did the worst thing he could do.

There are many observers of the royal marriage, including biographers of Diana, who believe that the early years of the marriage (perhaps 1981-1984) were a genuine and true committed relationship for Charles and Diana. That he did, so to speak, make the best of the situation and attempt to make a go of his marriage, but that they were simply too different. Many marriages fail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

I don’t think he lacks moral fiber. It’s miserable that he wasn’t allowed to marry the woman he loved in the first place, and was then forced to take another wife and produce an heir. In one sense, he actually has some moral fiber to have remained loyal to Camilla at least. That said, his marriage to Diana was a train wreck and it was especially regrettable how it destroyed her life - she was, to use Diana’s own words, a sacrificial lamb.

I think what makes him repulsive is that he emotionally abused and got involved an innocent victim into his mess. He could've stood his ground and not married her.

He could have, upon marriage to her, committed to her and decided to make the best of the situation.

He did the worst thing he could do.

But as a future king, he had to marry someone and was pressured to do so by his parents to avoid another King David-abdication scenario.I blame it on the monarchy. Charles shouldn’t have had to torture himself by marrying anyone other than the one he loved.

I do think some of his other behavior on the crown was more reprehensible and calls his character more into question- particularly his insecurity around Diana’s popularity and his own relevance. That lacked moral fiber and he should be held personally accountable for that.

This. He should have been delighted and proud that his wife was a beloved star -- being openly jealous says so amny bad things about his character.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it terrible that I sort-of feel that Princess Diana's narrative is the only one everyone appears to internalize regarding the Wales' marriage drama?

Do we know for a fact that Charles carried on an active affair with Camilla during the entirety of their marriage? What about Princess Diana's documented mental health issues?

To me, it appears that more than the cheating, Princess Diana had major immaturity issues. Charles needed a partner and she was always crying and creating drama.

She was 19.

Exactly. She was 19 and had no support or real love from Charles, her only lifeline in a dysfunctional, insular, generally unhappy and cynical family. I am fascinated by the royals, but it’s messed up that a family dynamic can revolve solely around one person at the expense at everyone around them. For what? To remain in power, preserve the family heritage in an outdated institution? They were all miserable despite having every privilege in the world.

Yes but she consented to the marriage, as did her family. Is it really on the institution of the monarchy to ensure their interpersonal affairs were handled appropriately? Don't get me wrong, I stan Princess Di, I just feel like her being a mismatch for the royal family isn't necessarily a blemish on the institution itself.

Had Princess Di had a loving supportive family like Kate does, she would have had an easier transition and may have handled the Charles' affair drama better.

Diana was very close with her sisters, so she had ties with her family. But what was true at that time and seems less true for Kate, is that entering the royal family means cutting off aspects of your birth family life. Only members of the royal family are permitted at certain events, including Christmas celebrations. Diana’s first few weeks at Kensington Palace were completely alone.

The Windsors are not a warm family - or functional family - and that was really hard on Diana. Kate seemingly has a good relationship with William, but in addition, the Middletons seem to have been brought into Windsor / Royal family events in a way the Spencer’s were not. You see them at events with Kate, including formal functions ans holidays. And certainly William is a much more supportive spouse than Charles. Goodness, that quote from Charles (IRL) when asked if he was in love with Diana .... his response: “Whatever love means ...”. Yikes.

The Middletons are definitely much more involved than Diana's family was allowed to be. I mean William even helped them purchase Bucklebury (sp?) which Charles would never do. I think there is genuine affection there between William and the Middletons and honestly as someone whose father passed away before I got married not having two living in-laws changes the dynamic a lot. My dad was super nice and warm so this wouldn't be the case, but I hear a lot of my male friends complain about their FILs having too many opinions and being a tad bit overbearing. I can only imagine what that would be like with a MIL ESPECIALLY when your MIL is the Queen, someone who has never really had to answer to anyone. So Kate does not have to deal with that. And I also think that Kate likely went into their marriage aware that literally every male role model of his cheated (his dad, his grandfather, his great-grandfather) and accepted that as part of the deal in a way that Diana did not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

I don’t think he lacks moral fiber. It’s miserable that he wasn’t allowed to marry the woman he loved in the first place, and was then forced to take another wife and produce an heir. In one sense, he actually has some moral fiber to have remained loyal to Camilla at least. That said, his marriage to Diana was a train wreck and it was especially regrettable how it destroyed her life - she was, to use Diana’s own words, a sacrificial lamb.

I think what makes him repulsive is that he emotionally abused and got involved an innocent victim into his mess. He could've stood his ground and not married her.

He could have, upon marriage to her, committed to her and decided to make the best of the situation.

He did the worst thing he could do.

There are many observers of the royal marriage, including biographers of Diana, who believe that the early years of the marriage (perhaps 1981-1984) were a genuine and true committed relationship for Charles and Diana. That he did, so to speak, make the best of the situation and attempt to make a go of his marriage, but that they were simply too different. Many marriages fail.

He was absolutely emotionally enmeshed with Camilla the entire time even if they weren't actually physical during that time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

Maybe it’s something kings strive to do:

Off topic but...what is this picture? That looks like a coca-cola bottle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

I don’t think he lacks moral fiber. It’s miserable that he wasn’t allowed to marry the woman he loved in the first place, and was then forced to take another wife and produce an heir. In one sense, he actually has some moral fiber to have remained loyal to Camilla at least. That said, his marriage to Diana was a train wreck and it was especially regrettable how it destroyed her life - she was, to use Diana’s own words, a sacrificial lamb.

I think what makes him repulsive is that he emotionally abused and got involved an innocent victim into his mess. He could've stood his ground and not married her.

He could have, upon marriage to her, committed to her and decided to make the best of the situation.

He did the worst thing he could do.

But as a future king, he had to marry someone and was pressured to do so by his parents to avoid another King David-abdication scenario.I blame it on the monarchy. Charles shouldn’t have had to torture himself by marrying anyone other than the one he loved.

I do think some of his other behavior on the crown was more reprehensible and calls his character more into question- particularly his insecurity around Diana’s popularity and his own relevance. That lacked moral fiber and he should be held personally accountable for that.

Camilla was not chomping at the bit to marry him when she could have. They weren’t star crossed lovers, Camilla was a player.

+1

Also Charles was seeing Kanga at the same time

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it terrible that I sort-of feel that Princess Diana's narrative is the only one everyone appears to internalize regarding the Wales' marriage drama?

Do we know for a fact that Charles carried on an active affair with Camilla during the entirety of their marriage? What about Princess Diana's documented mental health issues?

To me, it appears that more than the cheating, Princess Diana had major immaturity issues. Charles needed a partner and she was always crying and creating drama.

She was 19.

Exactly. She was 19 and had no support or real love from Charles, her only lifeline in a dysfunctional, insular, generally unhappy and cynical family. I am fascinated by the royals, but it’s messed up that a family dynamic can revolve solely around one person at the expense at everyone around them. For what? To remain in power, preserve the family heritage in an outdated institution? They were all miserable despite having every privilege in the world.

Yes but she consented to the marriage, as did her family. Is it really on the institution of the monarchy to ensure their interpersonal affairs were handled appropriately? Don't get me wrong, I stan Princess Di, I just feel like her being a mismatch for the royal family isn't necessarily a blemish on the institution itself.

Had Princess Di had a loving supportive family like Kate does, she would have had an easier transition and may have handled the Charles' affair drama better.

Diana was very close with her sisters, so she had ties with her family. But what was true at that time and seems less true for Kate, is that entering the royal family means cutting off aspects of your birth family life. Only members of the royal family are permitted at certain events, including Christmas celebrations. Diana’s first few weeks at Kensington Palace were completely alone.

The Windsors are not a warm family - or functional family - and that was really hard on Diana. Kate seemingly has a good relationship with William, but in addition, the Middletons seem to have been brought into Windsor / Royal family events in a way the Spencer’s were not. You see them at events with Kate, including formal functions ans holidays. And certainly William is a much more supportive spouse than Charles. Goodness, that quote from Charles (IRL) when asked if he was in love with Diana .... his response: “Whatever love means ...”. Yikes.

The Middletons are definitely much more involved than Diana's family was allowed to be. I mean William even helped them purchase Bucklebury (sp?) which Charles would never do. I think there is genuine affection there between William and the Middletons and honestly as someone whose father passed away before I got married not having two living in-laws changes the dynamic a lot. My dad was super nice and warm so this wouldn't be the case, but I hear a lot of my male friends complain about their FILs having too many opinions and being a tad bit overbearing. I can only imagine what that would be like with a MIL ESPECIALLY when your MIL is the Queen, someone who has never really had to answer to anyone. So Kate does not have to deal with that. And I also think that Kate likely went into their marriage aware that literally every male role model of his cheated (his dad, his grandfather, his great-grandfather) and accepted that as part of the deal in a way that Diana did not.

This is true. Here are the positive differences between Kate and Diana:

Kate was raised in a wholesome, tightknit and loving family with incredibly supportive parents. That wholesome childhood seems to have paid off as she appears to be an intelligent, levelheaded and normal young woman with plenty of self confidence and self esteem to take on a future King as a husband and all that comes with that. It also helped that William was very cautious after watching his parents marriage implode and took his time in training her and ensuring that she understood what a marriage with him would mean. Kate must have gone in with her eyes wide open and no fantasy expectations. She did not expect to have a "normal" marriage with her husband who is a future king. As others have mentioned, it would be extremely naive to believe William is a normal husband who will do chores around the house or even stay faithful 100%. Even before marriage William has been known to mess around with other women, so Kate would have had no expectation of his fidelity after marriage. She appears to give him a lot of deference and time to do whatever he pleases in addition to providing a nice and nurturing home for their children.

Kate is mature and has her eyes wide open. She doesn't expect a fairytale marriage and certainly doesn't expect the famously dysfunctional and cold Windsors to behave like cuddly teddy bears. She gets her emotional needs met through her children, William and her own family as evidenced by her many trips to her mother's house with her children. She is also patient if William is off blowing off steam at a ski trip with some friends and may fool around with another woman. She does not start drama or set unreasonable expectations. Meanwhile, she attends to her official duties with aplomb and is dedicated to the institution and its continuation.

Poor Princess Di, however, thought her marriage was a fairytale. She wanted Charles to give her all his attention and revere her and be faithful to her not realizing that's just not what people like him do. She grew up in a broken home and was a troubled young girl with depression and self esteem issues. She expected the BRF to become a real family, give her love and hugs and take care of her emotional needs. It was just...tragic and sad. I wish she got all of that but clearly thats not who the Windsors are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it truly repulsive that someone who lacks moral fiber such as Prince Charles will soon be King. Shouldn't his repulsive treatment of his first wife bar him from the throne?

I don’t think he lacks moral fiber. It’s miserable that he wasn’t allowed to marry the woman he loved in the first place, and was then forced to take another wife and produce an heir. In one sense, he actually has some moral fiber to have remained loyal to Camilla at least. That said, his marriage to Diana was a train wreck and it was especially regrettable how it destroyed her life - she was, to use Diana’s own words, a sacrificial lamb.

I think what makes him repulsive is that he emotionally abused and got involved an innocent victim into his mess. He could've stood his ground and not married her.

He could have, upon marriage to her, committed to her and decided to make the best of the situation.

He did the worst thing he could do.

But as a future king, he had to marry someone and was pressured to do so by his parents to avoid another King David-abdication scenario.I blame it on the monarchy. Charles shouldn’t have had to torture himself by marrying anyone other than the one he loved.

I do think some of his other behavior on the crown was more reprehensible and calls his character more into question- particularly his insecurity around Diana’s popularity and his own relevance. That lacked moral fiber and he should be held personally accountable for that.

Camilla was not chomping at the bit to marry him when she could have. They weren’t star crossed lovers, Camilla was a player.

+1

Also Charles was seeing Kanga at the same time

Just looked her up. Threw herself out of a window at a drug and alcohol recovery clinic. Died age 49 in 1997. Bit of an overlap there.

[Anonymous]

Diana internalized all the rejection into self harm. I also can’t picture what kind of man could give her alllll the love and security and reassurance she needed to be well. Even after Charles she gravitated towards men that were unavailable, due to her very nature or due to her experience with Charles?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Diana internalized all the rejection into self harm. I also can’t picture what kind of man could give her alllll the love and security and reassurance she needed to be well. Even after Charles she gravitated towards men that were unavailable, due to her very nature or due to her experience with Charles?

I read somewhere that even at the beginning of their marriage where Charles was not actively in love or chasing Camilla, Diana would get upset and throw fits if he was away on royal duties. That level of need for attention and love...couldn't have been solved by simply having a faithful husband.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it terrible that I sort-of feel that Princess Diana's narrative is the only one everyone appears to internalize regarding the Wales' marriage drama?

Do we know for a fact that Charles carried on an active affair with Camilla during the entirety of their marriage? What about Princess Diana's documented mental health issues?

To me, it appears that more than the cheating, Princess Diana had major immaturity issues. Charles needed a partner and she was always crying and creating drama.

She was 19.

Exactly. She was 19 and had no support or real love from Charles, her only lifeline in a dysfunctional, insular, generally unhappy and cynical family. I am fascinated by the royals, but it’s messed up that a family dynamic can revolve solely around one person at the expense at everyone around them. For what? To remain in power, preserve the family heritage in an outdated institution? They were all miserable despite having every privilege in the world.

Yes but she consented to the marriage, as did her family. Is it really on the institution of the monarchy to ensure their interpersonal affairs were handled appropriately? Don't get me wrong, I stan Princess Di, I just feel like her being a mismatch for the royal family isn't necessarily a blemish on the institution itself.

Had Princess Di had a loving supportive family like Kate does, she would have had an easier transition and may have handled the Charles' affair drama better.

Diana was very close with her sisters, so she had ties with her family. But what was true at that time and seems less true for Kate, is that entering the royal family means cutting off aspects of your birth family life. Only members of the royal family are permitted at certain events, including Christmas celebrations. Diana’s first few weeks at Kensington Palace were completely alone.

The Windsors are not a warm family - or functional family - and that was really hard on Diana. Kate seemingly has a good relationship with William, but in addition, the Middletons seem to have been brought into Windsor / Royal family events in a way the Spencer’s were not. You see them at events with Kate, including formal functions ans holidays. And certainly William is a much more supportive spouse than Charles. Goodness, that quote from Charles (IRL) when asked if he was in love with Diana .... his response: “Whatever love means ...”. Yikes.

The Middletons are definitely much more involved than Diana's family was allowed to be. I mean William even helped them purchase Bucklebury (sp?) which Charles would never do. I think there is genuine affection there between William and the Middletons and honestly as someone whose father passed away before I got married not having two living in-laws changes the dynamic a lot. My dad was super nice and warm so this wouldn't be the case, but I hear a lot of my male friends complain about their FILs having too many opinions and being a tad bit overbearing. I can only imagine what that would be like with a MIL ESPECIALLY when your MIL is the Queen, someone who has never really had to answer to anyone. So Kate does not have to deal with that. And I also think that Kate likely went into their marriage aware that literally every male role model of his cheated (his dad, his grandfather, his great-grandfather) and accepted that as part of the deal in a way that Diana did not.

This is true. Here are the positive differences between Kate and Diana:

Kate was raised in a wholesome, tightknit and loving family with incredibly supportive parents. That wholesome childhood seems to have paid off as she appears to be an intelligent, levelheaded and normal young woman with plenty of self confidence and self esteem to take on a future King as a husband and all that comes with that. It also helped that William was very cautious after watching his parents marriage implode and took his time in training her and ensuring that she understood what a marriage with him would mean. Kate must have gone in with her eyes wide open and no fantasy expectations. She did not expect to have a "normal" marriage with her husband who is a future king. As others have mentioned, it would be extremely naive to believe William is a normal husband who will do chores around the house or even stay faithful 100%. Even before marriage William has been known to mess around with other women, so Kate would have had no expectation of his fidelity after marriage. She appears to give him a lot of deference and time to do whatever he pleases in addition to providing a nice and nurturing home for their children.

Kate is mature and has her eyes wide open. She doesn't expect a fairytale marriage and certainly doesn't expect the famously dysfunctional and cold Windsors to behave like cuddly teddy bears. She gets her emotional needs met through her children, William and her own family as evidenced by her many trips to her mother's house with her children. She is also patient if William is off blowing off steam at a ski trip with some friends and may fool around with another woman. She does not start drama or set unreasonable expectations. Meanwhile, she attends to her official duties with aplomb and is dedicated to the institution and its continuation.

Poor Princess Di, however, thought her marriage was a fairytale. She wanted Charles to give her all his attention and revere her and be faithful to her not realizing that's just not what people like him do. She grew up in a broken home and was a troubled young girl with depression and self esteem issues. She expected the BRF to become a real family, give her love and hugs and take care of her emotional needs. It was just...tragic and sad. I wish she got all of that but clearly thats not who the Windsors are.

This makes sense. Both Charles and Diana were very broken people from very broken homes, and neither had a realistic idea of what their marriage would look like. They were also just very mismatched. Diana craved the spotlight and was like a teacup with a hole at the bottom.

Unfortunately, Harry's wife has some similar issues with a very dysfunctional family, immaturity, self esteem issues, and a disconnect with reality. When they became engaged, I recall that Harry said something along the lines of now Meghan would have a real family, meaning she would have the BRF as a real family since she never had that with her own. That really struck me as a red flag, especially given Harry's lack of maturity and mental stability. Plus the BRF isn't likely to be anyone's warm and loving family. Those two had major drama and conflict even before they married and it's been nonstop since. Unfortunately it looks like he inherited his mother's mental health issues and it's not like his father's side is the pinnacle of mental health. It's a repeat of two very broken people marrying each other without fixing their issues. I hope he and his wife find a way to improve their mental health and find some peace.