Shortage of "economically attractive" men reason for marriage decline according to new study

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the last few years, I have witnessed a trend that is very surprising to me: ridiculously well compensated men who have some how achieved the ability to get MORE time with their families at the height of their careers. I am talking managing partners of major law firms, developers, high end lobbyists, CEOs of mid sized businesses and large publicly traded ones - all making seven figures and up - who are simply AROUND for their kids. Coaching, volunteering, attending games, taking sons and daughters on trips, driving them to and from stuff. All very successful men who absolutely make time above and beyond the norm to be present for their kids. They all also appear to have strong marriages and do a lot of things with their wives. I am sure they all have help to take a lot of the running around out of their lives and to get chores done but they don't appear to use the time saved for more work or golf or what have you. The new "goal" for the DC super achievers that I know is to use their time well with their families, careers, communities and their hobbies. These are not man-children at all.

When you are that high up, you have more flexibility in your job schedule. Think Marissa Mayer and building a nursery next to her office. Middle management type who earn a solid living don't have as much flexibility.

I think there are two types of very high earning men -- one that uses the flexibility they have in their position to be an involved parent or uses their position as an excuse to shirk their duties as a parent/spouse (aka Trump).

It doesn't matter how much the man earns. What it comes down to is, "Is he willing and wanting to be a fully engaged partner and parent". You can have a low earning man not want to fully engage, too. It's not about money. It's about the man.

And yet Trump's kids all seem to adore him.

I don't care one way or another but I am fascinated at the people who are so taken with Trump as to bring him up in completely unrelated threads. Some people are truly obsessed with him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ironically, this results in both ambitious, careerist women and low status men having a lower fertility rate.

Well maybe for the ambitious careerist women. They are actually low status for the men with money. Why would you want to marry/date some one who is busy working for a living?

Hey let’s go to LA for the weekend

...oh I can’t have work.

Hey got a business meeting in London. Why don’t you come out with me on Wednesday. You can shop on Friday and we can have a great weekend?

...oh I can’t no vacation days!

Hey just closed that big deal! We are going to paint this town red!

...oh I can’t have work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ladies, we are done being your meal ticket. Get a job like every adult.

Men, we are tired of taking care of a man/child AND our children AND working FT. Clean up after yourself, and take care of your children as well without another adult telling you or reminding you what needs doing. Yes, kids need more than junk food, shelter and clothing.. if you even pay attention to their clothing.

You sound like you know some sub optimal men.

I am not perfect but -
As far as being a husband goes: I am respectful (WE split responsibilities), I pay attention, I am fit, I am funny, and my wife's happiness matters very much to me.
As far as being a dad goes: I am very engaged in my 3 kids lives now and from the day each was born, including doing most of the doc visits, staying up late at night when they were
infants and now helping with homework, coaching, and car pooling.
As far as being a provider, my income ranges from the high 800s to 1.4 per year and, while it involves travel and some very busy periods, such things are manageable.

My efforts buy me space when my wife wants to assert her opinion about doing things "the right way" (which is really just her way) because she knows I am no man child fudging it (she also likes how I turned out so when I press our son in a particular way that would not have occurred to her, she is aware I have a thoughtful basis.)

And most, if not all of my friends, are just like me.

There is a great expression: if you want to get something done, ask a busy person to do it. The same thing applies here: competence flows across various things. It is a product of energy, intelligence, engagement and commitment. If you know men who lack such capabilities, avoid. If you know men who have them but only focus them on selfish pursuits, avoid. If you find one and see him execute at a high level, proceed (and try to limit the momsplaining, good dad's don't need too much of it.)

My DH is all of the above but makes very little money as a teacher. You might want to park some of your arrogance about what high earning means. High competence is not exclusive to people earning $1million. Would love to know what noble, selfless profession you are in. Most men earning that amount are status seekers.

Not PP, but that was a rude response. He didn’t say people that don’t make 1 mil are incompetent. Of course there are hard working and talented people that make (much) less. But there is also a lot of truth to what he said. It is likely that someone making a very high income (trust fund kids not included) is doing so because they have made some smart decisions, know what opportunities to take, are highly skilled at something, and work hard. All good qualities that often translate to other aspects of their life outside of work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ladies, we are done being your meal ticket. Get a job like every adult.

Men, we are tired of taking care of a man/child AND our children AND working FT. Clean up after yourself, and take care of your children as well without another adult telling you or reminding you what needs doing. Yes, kids need more than junk food, shelter and clothing.. if you even pay attention to their clothing.

You sound like you know some sub optimal men.

I am not perfect but -
As far as being a husband goes: I am respectful (WE split responsibilities), I pay attention, I am fit, I am funny, and my wife's happiness matters very much to me.
As far as being a dad goes: I am very engaged in my 3 kids lives now and from the day each was born, including doing most of the doc visits, staying up late at night when they were
infants and now helping with homework, coaching, and car pooling.
As far as being a provider, my income ranges from the high 800s to 1.4 per year and, while it involves travel and some very busy periods, such things are manageable.

My efforts buy me space when my wife wants to assert her opinion about doing things "the right way" (which is really just her way) because she knows I am no man child fudging it (she also likes how I turned out so when I press our son in a particular way that would not have occurred to her, she is aware I have a thoughtful basis.)

And most, if not all of my friends, are just like me.

There is a great expression: if you want to get something done, ask a busy person to do it. The same thing applies here: competence flows across various things. It is a product of energy, intelligence, engagement and commitment. If you know men who lack such capabilities, avoid. If you know men who have them but only focus them on selfish pursuits, avoid. If you find one and see him execute at a high level, proceed (and try to limit the momsplaining, good dad's don't need too much of it.)

My DH is all of the above but makes very little money as a teacher. You might want to park some of your arrogance about what high earning means. High competence is not exclusive to people earning $1million. Would love to know what noble, selfless profession you are in. Most men earning that amount are status seekers.

Not PP, but that was a rude response. He didn’t say people that don’t make 1 mil are incompetent. Of course there are hard working and talented people that make (much) less. But there is also a lot of truth to what he said. It is likely that someone making a very high income (trust fund kids not included) is doing so because they have made some smart decisions, know what opportunities to take, are highly skilled at something, and work hard. All good qualities that often translate to other aspects of their life outside of work.

Thank you pp. I posted the prior post and know full well the quality of people does NOT depend on their salaries. I am the son of two teachers (later administrators) and learned that cooperation and respect are essential to keeping a marriage and a family together - far more so than money. I also know that value comes from many things, and money is not at the top of the list. That said, my profession does pay well but that is not the end of my responsibilities - husband and father also matter immensely. Sorry if that sounded arrogant, my point was more that a man should be able to meet all of his responsibilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ladies, we are done being your meal ticket. Get a job like every adult.

Men, we are tired of taking care of a man/child AND our children AND working FT. Clean up after yourself, and take care of your children as well without another adult telling you or reminding you what needs doing. Yes, kids need more than junk food, shelter and clothing.. if you even pay attention to their clothing.

You sound like you know some sub optimal men.

I am not perfect but -
As far as being a husband goes: I am respectful (WE split responsibilities), I pay attention, I am fit, I am funny, and my wife's happiness matters very much to me.
As far as being a dad goes: I am very engaged in my 3 kids lives now and from the day each was born, including doing most of the doc visits, staying up late at night when they were
infants and now helping with homework, coaching, and car pooling.
As far as being a provider, my income ranges from the high 800s to 1.4 per year and, while it involves travel and some very busy periods, such things are manageable.

My efforts buy me space when my wife wants to assert her opinion about doing things "the right way" (which is really just her way) because she knows I am no man child fudging it (she also likes how I turned out so when I press our son in a particular way that would not have occurred to her, she is aware I have a thoughtful basis.)

And most, if not all of my friends, are just like me.

There is a great expression: if you want to get something done, ask a busy person to do it. The same thing applies here: competence flows across various things. It is a product of energy, intelligence, engagement and commitment. If you know men who lack such capabilities, avoid. If you know men who have them but only focus them on selfish pursuits, avoid. If you find one and see him execute at a high level, proceed (and try to limit the momsplaining, good dad's don't need too much of it.)

My DH is all of the above but makes very little money as a teacher. You might want to park some of your arrogance about what high earning means. High competence is not exclusive to people earning $1million. Would love to know what noble, selfless profession you are in. Most men earning that amount are status seekers.

Not PP, but that was a rude response. He didn’t say people that don’t make 1 mil are incompetent. Of course there are hard working and talented people that make (much) less. But there is also a lot of truth to what he said. It is likely that someone making a very high income (trust fund kids not included) is doing so because they have made some smart decisions, know what opportunities to take, are highly skilled at something, and work hard. All good qualities that often translate to other aspects of their life outside of work.

Thank you pp. I posted the prior post and know full well the quality of people does NOT depend on their salaries. I am the son of two teachers (later administrators) and learned that cooperation and respect are essential to keeping a marriage and a family together - far more so than money. I also know that value comes from many things, and money is not at the top of the list. That said, my profession does pay well but that is not the end of my responsibilities - husband and father also matter immensely. Sorry if that sounded arrogant, my point was more that a man should be able to meet all of his responsibilities.

But I should have also noted why are you making assumptions and drawing negative conclusions with no facts. Defend your husband - he does important work and your point stands. Why the vitriol?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this when it first started but not the next 15 pages or so. Just a funny story. I have a very stable job and would be considered very well off in most of the country. Around here though, pretty average, just over 150K. I keep myself in relatively good shape and am an active parent to our children, do the coaching thing, help with chores, etc.

My wife and I were out at lunch one day and were seated next to two younger women who were talking loud enough to be overheard. Couldn't really be avoided, the seating was very close quarters. One had just broken up with a boyfriend I think, but the other did more of the talking. A lot of it revolved around wanting her boyfriend to get more serious with his life, stable job, etc. If I heard right, she and her parents had even found him a job but he wouldn't take it because they found it for him.

This woman was objectively good looking, nice features, the dress she was wearing was semi-modest and could have gotten her plenty of attention in any bar or club. I could not believe she had settled the way she sounded like she had.

I told my wife afterwards "Holy shit, I had no idea how much of a catch I am!" Simply by being an active, stable, okay looking guy. In fairness, my wife also has a very good job and is a very good parent, she is also very much a catch, but it was just shocking listening to these two talk. This thread reminded me of that lunch.

You married in your 20s? If you stayed single longer you would have seen the dating market flip dramatically in your 30s. Being a gentlemen, in decent shape and with a good job makes you stand out because almost all of those are married. My wife and I separated for a brief period of time and I was drowning in women during the break.

I think this video describes your situation: (Holderness family) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5uMMsIYRKA

Wow sounds like guy dodge a bullet. I really do not see how the poster thinks he is a catch. What he thinks the craze controlling girl would go out with him? Lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ironically, this results in both ambitious, careerist women and low status men having a lower fertility rate.

Well maybe for the ambitious careerist women. They are actually low status for the men with money. Why would you want to marry/date some one who is busy working for a living?

Hey let’s go to LA for the weekend

...oh I can’t have work.

Hey got a business meeting in London. Why don’t you come out with me on Wednesday. You can shop on Friday and we can have a great weekend?

...oh I can’t no vacation days!

Hey just closed that big deal! We are going to paint this town red!

...oh I can’t have work.

I guess you basically want someone who is going to cater to your schedule instead of you compromising with their schedule.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ironically, this results in both ambitious, careerist women and low status men having a lower fertility rate.

Well maybe for the ambitious careerist women. They are actually low status for the men with money. Why would you want to marry/date some one who is busy working for a living?

Hey let’s go to LA for the weekend

...oh I can’t have work.

Hey got a business meeting in London. Why don’t you come out with me on Wednesday. You can shop on Friday and we can have a great weekend?

...oh I can’t no vacation days!

Hey just closed that big deal! We are going to paint this town red!

...oh I can’t have work.

I guess you basically want someone who is going to cater to your schedule instead of you compromising with their schedule.

Some men on here can scream this to the heavens and it is of course true for some, but the data is in; we are primarily engaged in assortative dating and marriage at this point in time. The men with money, are not marrying the, "I can drop everything on a whim because I have little going on" fill-in-the-blank low paying, low commitment job woman. This was partially true at some point, but it is NOT now. As younger and younger people are entering into marriage, this is being solidified. I am mid 30's and I know very few, if any, couples where the man has the expectation that they would be with someone who could drop everything on a dime to go along for a business trip just for fun, nor do most of them look for this all-availability in the dating process. Even if you end up with a SAHM, if you're a top guy, you aim to "put your wife out of work" as my Wall Street friends say. That means her 500k salary is such a pittance it's not worth it anymore. But, big BUT, you both probably had big careers at some point. And yeah, she couldn't always call in "rich boyfriend" at every opportunity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ironically, this results in both ambitious, careerist women and low status men having a lower fertility rate.

Well maybe for the ambitious careerist women. They are actually low status for the men with money. Why would you want to marry/date some one who is busy working for a living?

Hey let’s go to LA for the weekend

...oh I can’t have work.

Hey got a business meeting in London. Why don’t you come out with me on Wednesday. You can shop on Friday and we can have a great weekend?

...oh I can’t no vacation days!

Hey just closed that big deal! We are going to paint this town red!

...oh I can’t have work.

I guess you basically want someone who is going to cater to your schedule instead of you compromising with their schedule.

Some men on here can scream this to the heavens and it is of course true for some, but the data is in; we are primarily engaged in assortative dating and marriage at this point in time. The men with money, are not marrying the, "I can drop everything on a whim because I have little going on" fill-in-the-blank low paying, low commitment job woman. This was partially true at some point, but it is NOT now. As younger and younger people are entering into marriage, this is being solidified. I am mid 30's and I know very few, if any, couples where the man has the expectation that they would be with someone who could drop everything on a dime to go along for a business trip just for fun, nor do most of them look for this all-availability in the dating process. Even if you end up with a SAHM, if you're a top guy, you aim to "put your wife out of work" as my Wall Street friends say. That means her 500k salary is such a pittance it's not worth it anymore. But, big BUT, you both probably had big careers at some point. And yeah, she couldn't always call in "rich boyfriend" at every opportunity.

That’s very nice but you obviously do not run in the circles of the “top men” or even the next level down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My guess is there has always been a shortage, but now women don’t need to rely on a man to survive. Easier to work than be married to a loser.

This

Yep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ladies, we are done being your meal ticket. Get a job like every adult.

Men, we are tired of taking care of a man/child AND our children AND working FT. Clean up after yourself, and take care of your children as well without another adult telling you or reminding you what needs doing. Yes, kids need more than junk food, shelter and clothing.. if you even pay attention to their clothing.

You sound like you know some sub optimal men.

I am not perfect but -
As far as being a husband goes: I am respectful (WE split responsibilities), I pay attention, I am fit, I am funny, and my wife's happiness matters very much to me.
As far as being a dad goes: I am very engaged in my 3 kids lives now and from the day each was born, including doing most of the doc visits, staying up late at night when they were
infants and now helping with homework, coaching, and car pooling.
As far as being a provider, my income ranges from the high 800s to 1.4 per year and, while it involves travel and some very busy periods, such things are manageable.

My efforts buy me space when my wife wants to assert her opinion about doing things "the right way" (which is really just her way) because she knows I am no man child fudging it (she also likes how I turned out so when I press our son in a particular way that would not have occurred to her, she is aware I have a thoughtful basis.)

And most, if not all of my friends, are just like me.

There is a great expression: if you want to get something done, ask a busy person to do it. The same thing applies here: competence flows across various things. It is a product of energy, intelligence, engagement and commitment. If you know men who lack such capabilities, avoid. If you know men who have them but only focus them on selfish pursuits, avoid. If you find one and see him execute at a high level, proceed (and try to limit the momsplaining, good dad's don't need too much of it.)

And you sound like you know some subpar women if you or that PP thinks all women marry men just for the money.

I was being somewhat sarcastic in my response to the post about how men are tired of being a meal ticket to women.

My DH pulls his weight and then some. I make about the same as he does.

Its about being a good husband, good father and good provider. My bad for quoting the meal ticket part, it was your response that I was after.

No kidding. That's what women are saying on here.. that they want a good father and good provider, but there is a dearth of them. Most men don't do much childcare or house chores. Studies after studies have shown this. And if a woman can't find a man who is willing to be an equal partner in this regard, then at the least he could do is bring home the bacon so the wife could take on the role of a default parent without having to also take on the role of primary bread winner.

A PP stated that women were just after a meal ticket. I was responding to that.

I actually they are saying they want a good husband and a good father.
Wtf is a good “provider” anyhow? Is that 100% redundant with being a thoughtful, good spouse and parent? Or are we back to the 1950s where the only thing you need to do is submit your paycheck and check out thereafter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I read this when it first started but not the next 15 pages or so. Just a funny story. I have a very stable job and would be considered very well off in most of the country. Around here though, pretty average, just over 150K. I keep myself in relatively good shape and am an active parent to our children, do the coaching thing, help with chores, etc.

My wife and I were out at lunch one day and were seated next to two younger women who were talking loud enough to be overheard. Couldn't really be avoided, the seating was very close quarters. One had just broken up with a boyfriend I think, but the other did more of the talking. A lot of it revolved around wanting her boyfriend to get more serious with his life, stable job, etc. If I heard right, she and her parents had even found him a job but he wouldn't take it because they found it for him.

This woman was objectively good looking, nice features, the dress she was wearing was semi-modest and could have gotten her plenty of attention in any bar or club. I could not believe she had settled the way she sounded like she had.

I told my wife afterwards "Holy shit, I had no idea how much of a catch I am!" Simply by being an active, stable, okay looking guy. In fairness, my wife also has a very good job and is a very good parent, she is also very much a catch, but it was just shocking listening to these two talk. This thread reminded me of that lunch.

Sad that women who have their stuff together feel that they have to settle for males that don’t have their stuff together. But that may be the supply/demand situation. There are more loser men out there at each strata than loser women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My guess is there has always been a shortage, but now women don’t need to rely on a man to survive. Easier to work than be married to a loser.

This

Yep.

+2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ironically, this results in both ambitious, careerist women and low status men having a lower fertility rate.

Well maybe for the ambitious careerist women. They are actually low status for the men with money. Why would you want to marry/date some one who is busy working for a living?

Hey let’s go to LA for the weekend

...oh I can’t have work.

Hey got a business meeting in London. Why don’t you come out with me on Wednesday. You can shop on Friday and we can have a great weekend?

...oh I can’t no vacation days!

Hey just closed that big deal! We are going to paint this town red!

...oh I can’t have work.

High status women have flexibility just like their husbands. Thry know how to manage their lives too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ironically, this results in both ambitious, careerist women and low status men having a lower fertility rate.

Well maybe for the ambitious careerist women. They are actually low status for the men with money. Why would you want to marry/date some one who is busy working for a living?

Hey let’s go to LA for the weekend

...oh I can’t have work.

Hey got a business meeting in London. Why don’t you come out with me on Wednesday. You can shop on Friday and we can have a great weekend?

...oh I can’t no vacation days!

Hey just closed that big deal! We are going to paint this town red!

...oh I can’t have work.

I guess you basically want someone who is going to cater to your schedule instead of you compromising with their schedule.

Some men on here can scream this to the heavens and it is of course true for some, but the data is in; we are primarily engaged in assortative dating and marriage at this point in time. The men with money, are not marrying the, "I can drop everything on a whim because I have little going on" fill-in-the-blank low paying, low commitment job woman. This was partially true at some point, but it is NOT now. As younger and younger people are entering into marriage, this is being solidified. I am mid 30's and I know very few, if any, couples where the man has the expectation that they would be with someone who could drop everything on a dime to go along for a business trip just for fun, nor do most of them look for this all-availability in the dating process. Even if you end up with a SAHM, if you're a top guy, you aim to "put your wife out of work" as my Wall Street friends say. That means her 500k salary is such a pittance it's not worth it anymore. But, big BUT, you both probably had big careers at some point. And yeah, she couldn't always call in "rich boyfriend" at every opportunity.

+1 I know some really really wealthy millennial men, wealthy like partying with the elite set, private jets, galas. None of their wives weren’t accomplished. Sure they may now be SAHMs, but the usual story is that they either met at the Ivy League they both studied at or Harvard law school at the same powerhouse jobs. Once she got married and had kids she stopped working but there’s still the live in nanny. The really rich guy marrying the waitress, those days are long gone.