Started working at an elementary school last week. Shocked and sad. AMA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am concerned that some of these posts seem to be attributing these behaviors to minority and poor kids. I attended a minority majority school in a small Southern town--my graduating class was 72% black, we had socioeconomic diversity ranging from rich kids to kids on welfare, and there was a literal orphanage in my town. We absolutely did not have issues like what I witnessed in my kids' ES, like kids eloping from the school and rolling around on the floor of the classroom. The main differences were cohesive communities (church attendance and community involvement meant people knew each other), small class sizes, and discipline. I don't believe in corporal punishment, but misbehavior was addressed immediately. More spending might help if it results in smaller classes, but schools here are at capacity and building new ones takes forever.

I don't know what the answer is.

Not one post has put out even in a passive or suggestive manner the thesis of your first sentence. In my experience (3rd grader in large well-rated NYC public elementary) the kids who are most disruptive and don’t have IEPs or diagnoses are the spawn of harried, self-important, ‘busy’ parents. I am able to chaperone field trips every once in a while and we have a class contact list where its clear all of us in an extremely expensive neighborhood live in walking distance to the school, our racial and socioeconomic diversity is pretty piss-poor, and we still have some of the distressing issues addressed here (death threats; multiple kids physically attacking one) even at this age. It’s distressing.

I agree with the idea that when we can’t have a direct, conseqeunce-carrying response to egregious misbehavior the kids who don’t misbehave at this level aren't treated fairly, and that its also unfair to lump ‘emotional disabilities’ with children with low tone, or dyscalculia, or speech impediments. It’s just absurd. Can we be honest for a minute here? A lot of what’s been highlighted (classroom clearing for scary fits and stuff along those lines, threats of and executed acts of violence) are just the prelim steps to an eventual ex of ‘conduct disorder,’ which is the remarketed for parental egos term for sociopathy. Kids who need extra reading assistance or fine motor help in mastering cursive with an OT should not be tarred with that kind of brush - nor should kids who are the racial or economic minority in their school. But I don’t think anyone is saying that, and it seems most are saying that the fundamental issue is the displacement of basic parenting and meting out of consequence onto completely overwhelmed teaching staff, and I personally and others have clearly observed that happening a faqton with UMC parents who decide they are too busy to parent, and who parent from a place of defensiveness. I think part of that is deeply connected to what you’ve mentioned, PP — the absence of broader community. Where we don’t have communities where younger parents can be in some kind of allegiance with older, seen-it-all adults, and listen to what they see and what we in the throes of it might miss, there’s a knowledge gap. Where we’re atomized and are only really close with our own spouse or partner, where we don’t have family, where we don’t have long-term roots (really common where I am in NYC, was also common when I lived in DC proper), we can feel overwhelmed without actually being technically that busy, and we check out. That’s what I’m seeing. I just wanted to counter the idea that people are attributing bad elementary issues to the racially underrepresented and the actually three-jobs-at-menial-wage parents. I don’t think we collectively are doing that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am concerned that some of these posts seem to be attributing these behaviors to minority and poor kids. I attended a minority majority school in a small Southern town--my graduating class was 72% black, we had socioeconomic diversity ranging from rich kids to kids on welfare, and there was a literal orphanage in my town. We absolutely did not have issues like what I witnessed in my kids' ES, like kids eloping from the school and rolling around on the floor of the classroom. The main differences were cohesive communities (church attendance and community involvement meant people knew each other), small class sizes, and discipline. I don't believe in corporal punishment, but misbehavior was addressed immediately. More spending might help if it results in smaller classes, but schools here are at capacity and building new ones takes forever.

I don't know what the answer is.

Unless a lot of stuff has been deleted, you’re literally the only person on this thread to suggest that the troublemakers are black kids. Personally when I think of troublemakers in the classrooms my mental picture is of a white boy.

Like you said, many of us have had personal experiences in schools in poor areas and never seen anything like what’s going on in school classrooms today.

The poor behavior isn’t related to race or wealth. Maybe it really is in the water like someone suggested. Or the crappy food that most kids seem to eat these days. Wealthy kids eat crappy food too because rich parents are too busy doing rich people things to actually parent their kids properly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am concerned that some of these posts seem to be attributing these behaviors to minority and poor kids. I attended a minority majority school in a small Southern town--my graduating class was 72% black, we had socioeconomic diversity ranging from rich kids to kids on welfare, and there was a literal orphanage in my town. We absolutely did not have issues like what I witnessed in my kids' ES, like kids eloping from the school and rolling around on the floor of the classroom. The main differences were cohesive communities (church attendance and community involvement meant people knew each other), small class sizes, and discipline. I don't believe in corporal punishment, but misbehavior was addressed immediately. More spending might help if it results in smaller classes, but schools here are at capacity and building new ones takes forever.

I don't know what the answer is.

Unless a lot of stuff has been deleted, you’re literally the only person on this thread to suggest that the troublemakers are black kids. Personally when I think of troublemakers in the classrooms my mental picture is of a white boy.

Like you said, many of us have had personal experiences in schools in poor areas and never seen anything like what’s going on in school classrooms today.

The poor behavior isn’t related to race or wealth. Maybe it really is in the water like someone suggested. Or the crappy food that most kids seem to eat these days. Wealthy kids eat crappy food too because rich parents are too busy doing rich people things to actually parent their kids properly.

I thought everyone ate Wonder bread and Twinkie’s in the 80s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am concerned that some of these posts seem to be attributing these behaviors to minority and poor kids. I attended a minority majority school in a small Southern town--my graduating class was 72% black, we had socioeconomic diversity ranging from rich kids to kids on welfare, and there was a literal orphanage in my town. We absolutely did not have issues like what I witnessed in my kids' ES, like kids eloping from the school and rolling around on the floor of the classroom. The main differences were cohesive communities (church attendance and community involvement meant people knew each other), small class sizes, and discipline. I don't believe in corporal punishment, but misbehavior was addressed immediately. More spending might help if it results in smaller classes, but schools here are at capacity and building new ones takes forever.

I don't know what the answer is.

Unless a lot of stuff has been deleted, you’re literally the only person on this thread to suggest that the troublemakers are black kids. Personally when I think of troublemakers in the classrooms my mental picture is of a white boy.

Like you said, many of us have had personal experiences in schools in poor areas and never seen anything like what’s going on in school classrooms today.

The poor behavior isn’t related to race or wealth. Maybe it really is in the water like someone suggested. Or the crappy food that most kids seem to eat these days. Wealthy kids eat crappy food too because rich parents are too busy doing rich people things to actually parent their kids properly.

There’s been nothing posted. PP is an inflammatory troll.

[Anonymous]

We need stop the approach to warehousing kids. Hundreds or thousands of kids in one building is a recipe for disaster. So is more than 20 kids per class without an assistant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the violent and disruptive kids have parents in the PTA to get preferential treatment. This way, their kids are not suspended or kicked off the school. Teachers and administrators receive generous gifts from corrupt parents.

False. I agree that PTA parent's kids get preferntial treatment. But the terribly behaved kids' parents never come to school unless summoned for an IEP meeting. They make no optional trips to the school whatsoever and generally treat their kid as the "school's problem" as it relates to any behavioral issues that happen at school. When calls are made home regarding their behavior their response is usually to the effect of "Well, he has an IEP so..."

This. 95% of the time with severely disruptive students, it’s the same line from the parents: “He’s YOUR responsibility while he’s at school.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most of the violent and disruptive kids have parents in the PTA to get preferential treatment. This way, their kids are not suspended or kicked off the school. Teachers and administrators receive generous gifts from corrupt parents.

I don’t think this is true, at least not in my experience. I’ve worked in public and private schools. I’ve seen many cases of disruptive kids in private school having really aggressive, involved parents. But in public, for the really badly behaved kids it’s almost always the parents we never see. I feel like it’s because they are barely treading water, so they don’t want to reach out or come to school because it’s just an extra thing to do. It usually turns out that there’s also lots of obligations at home or other factors, like the parent is a single teenage mom, or it’s a stable married couple but with 3 other kids including twin babies, or they have two SN kids and 2 NT kids and just cannot keep up. Strangely, I also feel like there is a sense that if they don’t come in, the kid can’t get into really big trouble, because the school will just deal with it and move on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the violent and disruptive kids have parents in the PTA to get preferential treatment. This way, their kids are not suspended or kicked off the school. Teachers and administrators receive generous gifts from corrupt parents.

I don’t think this is true, at least not in my experience. I’ve worked in public and private schools. I’ve seen many cases of disruptive kids in private school having really aggressive, involved parents. But in public, for the really badly behaved kids it’s almost always the parents we never see. I feel like it’s because they are barely treading water, so they don’t want to reach out or come to school because it’s just an extra thing to do. It usually turns out that there’s also lots of obligations at home or other factors, like the parent is a single teenage mom, or it’s a stable married couple but with 3 other kids including twin babies, or they have two SN kids and 2 NT kids and just cannot keep up. Strangely, I also feel like there is a sense that if they don’t come in, the kid can’t get into really big trouble, because the school will just deal with it and move on.

Why is that strange? They’re right. It’s exactly what’s happening now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

I don't think it's disingenuous. It wasn't long ago that physically disabled people could not access schools or other public resources., whether they were intellectually able or not. We can all agree that was wrong. Also, not too long ago, black people were not allowed to attend the publicly funded schools. Very wrong.

Now we are talking if kids who are disruptive/violent or special needs can attend school?

I don't want violence around my child, but where the distiction is made is impossible. Profoundly SN kids do have schools here in DC. Kids who are traumatized/on spectrum/LD probably do belong in public school. Private has been the option for people who want their kids insulated.

It’s really gross that some posters keep trying to insist that having violent or highly verbally disruptive kids in the classroom is the same thing as having a child in a wheel chair sitting there or good forbid a black child (?!!) in the classroom. There’s something really wrong with you if you honestly think that.

The distinction is clear - when the teacher has to literally stop classes to reprimand someone, try to keep them on task, chase them because they ran outside, evacuate all tye other kids in the classroom because a child is screaming or destroying things. Those kids clearly do not belong in the classroom. Kids who stop the teachers from teaching do not belong in the classroom. They are the kids we’re talking about.

No one is saying they are the same. I am a PP who made an analogy to kids with physical disabilities earlier. Obviously they are not the same, but there are parallels. There are shades of gray but the FACT is disabled kids have protections, which is a good thing. And disabilities present in more ways than physical. So it is a fine line and no one size fits all approach as to which setting any particular kid should be in. What I can tell you is a parent ad hoc volunteering in a classroom is NOT the best arbiter of all kids and where they should be placed. There is an entire process for that involving the school, parents, and specialists. Is it perfect?? NO. But life is not perfect.

What’s disgusting is prior posters saying kids should be shipped off to special separate schools, and given “instruction” in their homes because god forbid (!)they be in the presence of other kids. Gues what. These kids will be adults one day and all live in a world together.

I am an adult, and no one throws chairs in my world. Not at home, not at work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you folks talking about poorly behaved special needs kids are likely NOT parents of kids with unique needs, and you should consider yourself lucky. Such holier than thou attitudes and a wholesale lack of empathy for kids.

No kid WANTS to behave that way. Behaviors like that are expressing an unmet need. Those kids are in a world a hurt and need support, possibly therapy or other tools. It is not unlike a kid with dyslexia or even a physical disability.

Schools, SN kids, and resources were barely getting by pre pandemic and now we’ve got two years of no progress and more stress on everyone, especially those kids who were left behind. And the learning loss amongst SN kids was far worse than most typical kids.

Rather than fault the kids, or the parents of those kids, start screaming at your school boards and their inane funding priorities. Raise teacher salaries, invest in more SN instructional assistants and their training, more case managers and specialists. Maybe something more than 1 BCBA for 25 schools would help…

All people are saying is that those kids don't belong in the classroom with neurotypical kids. It doesn't serve society well to help out one or two kids at the expense of 25 others.

That is the fundamental gap. They do belong in regular classrooms. Remember back in the 60’s when kids in wheelchairs were sent to special schools, away from the “regular” kids? Ruled unconstitutional. Thank god for the ADA. Same applies here hence the ‘least restrictive environment’ laws.

JUST STOP. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEELCHAIRS OR DYSLEXIA AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT.

So freaking disingenuous.

I don't think it's disingenuous. It wasn't long ago that physically disabled people could not access schools or other public resources., whether they were intellectually able or not. We can all agree that was wrong. Also, not too long ago, black people were not allowed to attend the publicly funded schools. Very wrong.

Now we are talking if kids who are disruptive/violent or special needs can attend school?

I don't want violence around my child, but where the distiction is made is impossible. Profoundly SN kids do have schools here in DC. Kids who are traumatized/on spectrum/LD probably do belong in public school. Private has been the option for people who want their kids insulated.

It’s really gross that some posters keep trying to insist that having violent or highly verbally disruptive kids in the classroom is the same thing as having a child in a wheel chair sitting there or good forbid a black child (?!!) in the classroom. There’s something really wrong with you if you honestly think that.

The distinction is clear - when the teacher has to literally stop classes to reprimand someone, try to keep them on task, chase them because they ran outside, evacuate all tye other kids in the classroom because a child is screaming or destroying things. Those kids clearly do not belong in the classroom. Kids who stop the teachers from teaching do not belong in the classroom. They are the kids we’re talking about.

No one is saying they are the same. I am a PP who made an analogy to kids with physical disabilities earlier. Obviously they are not the same, but there are parallels. There are shades of gray but the FACT is disabled kids have protections, which is a good thing. And disabilities present in more ways than physical. So it is a fine line and no one size fits all approach as to which setting any particular kid should be in. What I can tell you is a parent ad hoc volunteering in a classroom is NOT the best arbiter of all kids and where they should be placed. There is an entire process for that involving the school, parents, and specialists. Is it perfect?? NO. But life is not perfect.

What’s disgusting is prior posters saying kids should be shipped off to special separate schools, and given “instruction” in their homes because god forbid (!)they be in the presence of other kids. Gues what. These kids will be adults one day and all live in a world together.

I am an adult, and no one throws chairs in my world. Not at home, not at work.

Exactly. Because unlike at school, you aren’t allowed to be violent or disorderly in public without consequence. Someone will call the police.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I’m so sick of people claiming there’s “no funding” or “not enough funding” in our schools. Schools in DC spend literally more than $22k per year per kid, average. Some are obviously a lot more. Schools in Florida spend $9k and that’s still high, relatively speaking. Other Western countries spend WAY less than we do in the US. People need to start acknowledging that if an average of $22k/year isn’t enough to get all students meeting a basic grade level standard then money is NOT the problem and more money is NOT the answer.

This. It's not money, it's how it's used. DC spends about 2x the national average per student. Compared to other states, only NY spends more per student, and that's likely due to high real estate and labor costs in NYC.

My 2nd grade DD is in an all-girls private. I volunteer there at lunch time. The kids are well-mannered and well-behaved, asking me if they can get up for another serving or go to the bathroom. Everyone complies with the requirement to wash your hands before eating.

Our private spends about the same per student in operating costs than public school (public school funding does not include capital expenditures). The difference is privates can pick their students, so they choose the ones who are motivated. I think single-gender education helps too. Our DD complained about boys disrupting class when she was in public.

Lol. My DS complained about the girls poking him with pencils, taking pictures of him and calling him “stupid” when the teacher was distracted. Now, DS is at an all-boys school away from that toxic femininity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents, just a PSA. If you do not want your child placed in an inclusion classroom, you can tell the principle this. I learned this the hard way with my older child, and from then on with that child and my younger child I have expressly stated that my kids would not do well in that type of environment and it has been honored. Unforunately in middle school there are no more inclusion classes, the unruly kids are just mixed in everywhere - its terrible. I put my kids in all honors and advanced math and that helps some but doesn't work for PE, electives, study hall, etc. Its a mess, and frankly enraging. But unless parents have money for private school they are stuck at the mercy of these kids and the school.

In MCPS, "honors" classes include students below grade level, on grade level, and above grade level.[/quote

Also pro tip: do online PE in the summer to escape the troublemakers and free up space for an elective

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You think 7 year olds use bad language? Try teaching 6th grade. What is your background, OP? Most experienced teachers I know, including myself, understand that this is just the nature of the beast. As such, we have the skills to manage these these types behaviors. I welcome neurodiverse kids into my classroom (with proper support!) because I know how to manage them without compromising the learning of my other students. Plus they force me to become a better teacher.

But wouldn’t you have more resources to help mainstream kids if you didn’t have neurodivergent ones in class?

[Anonymous]

Not one post has put out even in a passive or suggestive manner the thesis of your first sentence.[list]

My bad, sorry. I read the post in which one poster said she at one time blamed societal ills like poverty and racism and jumped to conclusions. Not a troll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Not one post has put out even in a passive or suggestive manner the thesis of your first sentence.[list]

My bad, sorry. I read the post in which one poster said she at one time blamed societal ills like poverty and racism and jumped to conclusions. Not a troll.

I'm a pp who has posted a few times. I work in an affluent public elementary school. When I think of the true behavioral issues at our school - the elopers and the ones who require frequent intervention from the sped team and/or admin/counselor, all are white and live in 600k+ homes. So poverty and racism definitely doesn't play a role there. And yet its still a huge issue.