What is the real reason MCPS uses Lottery for Middle School Magnet Program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS was on track to really improve the magnet selection a couple of years ago, putting emphasis on selection methods which favored CoGAT and cohort over MAP and grades (ability over privilege) and doing away with inherent bias like teacher recommendations and parent- initiated applications. By bringing MAP and grades back as the prime selection methods, they have had to vastly widen the pool to overcome the strong privilege bias those metrics create. So they are now just scooping tons of kids into the magnet system without making any effort to consider the need.

Every single word of this. They were doing the right thing, and it was working. The decision to throw it in the trash before the first cohort even finished the program is inexplicable.

The about-face isn´t inexplicable. It´s based on 2 things: Covid + litigation. The cohorts were attacked in the litigation, and from the court record, MCPS admin seems to not have a clue on how to deal with that allegation.

That's not quite right, though. Parents were complaining about the practice of prioritizing kids without home school cohorts, but there's precedent for setting up a magnet system that way. The much much bigger issue was that MCPS lied about the home school cohorts. Parents were told that their kids would received magnet-level classes (HIGH, AIM) with other kids who qualified. The next year rolls around, and most schools aren't offering either, some schools are opening the classes up to the whole school, and the whole "cohort" explanation falls apart.

MCPS would have been on much better ground, both legally and educationally, if they had just done what they said they were going to to and provided differentiated instruction in the home schools.

[Anonymous]

I think the biggest problem with the "home school cohort" was that MCPS could never explain how it chose who would be "kept" in the cohort and who would be sent to CES.

MCPS never really did anything for these "home school cohorts," so it was essentially just window dressing on an exclusion tool. As long as your school had over 20 magnet candidates then MCPS had a process to exclude many of them.

The problem is that it was a total black box.

MCPS to this day has not explained its process for deciding who would be excluded from being sent to CES.

Not after multiple requests for explanation. Not after being sued. Not after switching to a lottery.

You would think MCPS could explain their process of selecting the home school cohorts after they ditched the concept. Yet they refuse to.

Makes it sound like MCPS is hiding something. They should have explained their process by now if it was fair and just.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS was on track to really improve the magnet selection a couple of years ago, putting emphasis on selection methods which favored CoGAT and cohort over MAP and grades (ability over privilege) and doing away with inherent bias like teacher recommendations and parent- initiated applications. By bringing MAP and grades back as the prime selection methods, they have had to vastly widen the pool to overcome the strong privilege bias those metrics create. So they are now just scooping tons of kids into the magnet system without making any effort to consider the need.

Every single word of this. They were doing the right thing, and it was working. The decision to throw it in the trash before the first cohort even finished the program is inexplicable.

The about-face isn´t inexplicable. It´s based on 2 things: Covid + litigation. The cohorts were attacked in the litigation, and from the court record, MCPS admin seems to not have a clue on how to deal with that allegation.

That's not quite right, though. Parents were complaining about the practice of prioritizing kids without home school cohorts, but there's precedent for setting up a magnet system that way. The much much bigger issue was that MCPS lied about the home school cohorts. Parents were told that their kids would received magnet-level classes (HIGH, AIM) with other kids who qualified. The next year rolls around, and most schools aren't offering either, some schools are opening the classes up to the whole school, and the whole "cohort" explanation falls apart.

MCPS would have been on much better ground, both legally and educationally, if they had just done what they said they were going to to and provided differentiated instruction in the home schools.

That's such a well written and thoughtful response. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

I completely agree with the three PP's. The reality is that parents want a differentiated MS curriculum (and looking at MCPS math and reading scores, looks like the MS curriculum is not good). Why is all the energy around tinkering with a magnet program (for advanced learners)? Anybody have insights on that. Why not improve academic opportunities at the homeschool level?

[Anonymous]

I also wanted to add that part of the reason parents want spots at these magnets is due to opportunities to compete in national level academic competitions (and place/win). Some of the opportunities are built into the school day so are both curricular and extracurricular. This is hard to replicate at each home MS, but maybe they could provide bussing to schools with robust academic clubs for those schools that won't/can't offer them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the biggest problem with the "home school cohort" was that MCPS could never explain how it chose who would be "kept" in the cohort and who would be sent to CES.

MCPS never really did anything for these "home school cohorts," so it was essentially just window dressing on an exclusion tool. As long as your school had over 20 magnet candidates then MCPS had a process to exclude many of them.

The problem is that it was a total black box.

MCPS to this day has not explained its process for deciding who would be excluded from being sent to CES.

Not after multiple requests for explanation. Not after being sued. Not after switching to a lottery.

You would think MCPS could explain their process of selecting the home school cohorts after they ditched the concept. Yet they refuse to.

Makes it sound like MCPS is hiding something. They should have explained their process by now if it was fair and just.

And here it is boiled down:

MCPS to this day has not explained its process for deciding who would be excluded from being sent to CES.

One argument contends that MCPS struggles and contorts to design a process to exclude students.

Another argument contends that MCPS struggles and contorts to design a process to include students.

I myself suspect that MCPS struggles and contorts because it is beset on both sides by litigious people that see an opportunity to fight a political / cultural proxy using middle school students as cannon fodder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the biggest problem with the "home school cohort" was that MCPS could never explain how it chose who would be "kept" in the cohort and who would be sent to CES.

MCPS never really did anything for these "home school cohorts," so it was essentially just window dressing on an exclusion tool. As long as your school had over 20 magnet candidates then MCPS had a process to exclude many of them.

The problem is that it was a total black box.

MCPS to this day has not explained its process for deciding who would be excluded from being sent to CES.

Not after multiple requests for explanation. Not after being sued. Not after switching to a lottery.

You would think MCPS could explain their process of selecting the home school cohorts after they ditched the concept. Yet they refuse to.

Makes it sound like MCPS is hiding something. They should have explained their process by now if it was fair and just.

And here it is boiled down:

MCPS to this day has not explained its process for deciding who would be excluded from being sent to CES.

One argument contends that MCPS struggles and contorts to design a process to exclude students.

Another argument contends that MCPS struggles and contorts to design a process to include students.

I myself suspect that MCPS struggles and contorts because it is beset on both sides by litigious people that see an opportunity to fight a political / cultural proxy using middle school students as cannon fodder.

It's both. It's a process designed to include more students from schools that historically don't send many students to CES. It's also a process designed to exclude students from schools that historically send many students to CES.

But how you do it matters, and it's shady that MCPS refuses to explain how it put together its "home school cohorts."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I also wanted to add that part of the reason parents want spots at these magnets is due to opportunities to compete in national level academic competitions (and place/win). Some of the opportunities are built into the school day so are both curricular and extracurricular. This is hard to replicate at each home MS, but maybe they could provide bussing to schools with robust academic clubs for those schools that won't/can't offer them.

I know the math programs are different, but the main competitions that the Humanities kids do are NHD and the CNN documentary challenge. Both could easily be supported at home schools if you cohort the kids with high enough scores and encourage collaboration between the English and HIGH teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the three PP's. The reality is that parents want a differentiated MS curriculum (and looking at MCPS math and reading scores, looks like the MS curriculum is not good). Why is all the energy around tinkering with a magnet program (for advanced learners)? Anybody have insights on that. Why not improve academic opportunities at the homeschool level?

Maybe trying to undermine magnet problems and show that they are working for equity is an MCPS smokescreen to hide the real problems. Look at the numbers here. Where does all the billions pf MCPS funding go for god's sake? If they are producing such results. Only 33% passed MCAP Math in spring 2019 and 15% now. Abysmal.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/education/bs-md-maryland-test-scores-20211208-wk5aen5r5bfx5eag2p57pamjcy-story.html

The first Maryland standardized tests given since the beginning of the pandemic show a dramatic drop in student achievement, mirroring a nationwide trend of academic loss, according to preliminary data released by the state education department Tuesday.

Just 15% of the state’s public school students passed math and 35% passed English, the greatest single-year declines on any state tests given in at least the past two decades in Maryland.

The standardized tests, known as the Maryland Comprehensive Assessment Program, are considered difficult to pass. More than half of the state’s public school students regularly fail the tests — given in math and English in grades three through eight and in some high school subjects — in years before the pandemic.

However, the pass rate for math fell by more than half from the 33% who passed in the spring of 2019, the last time the test was given. English scores were down by about 8 percentage points since testing before the pandemic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the three PP's. The reality is that parents want a differentiated MS curriculum (and looking at MCPS math and reading scores, looks like the MS curriculum is not good). Why is all the energy around tinkering with a magnet program (for advanced learners)? Anybody have insights on that. Why not improve academic opportunities at the homeschool level?

Maybe trying to undermine magnet problems and show that they are working for equity is an MCPS smokescreen to hide the real problems. Look at the numbers here. Where does all the billions pf MCPS funding go for god's sake? If they are producing such results. Only 33% passed MCAP Math in spring 2019 and 15% now. Abysmal.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/education/bs-md-maryland-test-scores-20211208-wk5aen5r5bfx5eag2p57pamjcy-story.html

The first Maryland standardized tests given since the beginning of the pandemic show a dramatic drop in student achievement, mirroring a nationwide trend of academic loss, according to preliminary data released by the state education department Tuesday.

Just 15% of the state’s public school students passed math and 35% passed English, the greatest single-year declines on any state tests given in at least the past two decades in Maryland.

The standardized tests, known as the Maryland Comprehensive Assessment Program, are considered difficult to pass. More than half of the state’s public school students regularly fail the tests — given in math and English in grades three through eight and in some high school subjects — in years before the pandemic.

However, the pass rate for math fell by more than half from the 33% who passed in the spring of 2019, the last time the test was given. English scores were down by about 8 percentage points since testing before the pandemic.

These wacky conspiracies ignore the obvious.

1) COVID made it impossible to use the CogAT last year
2) there were the lawsuits filed by Asian groups who felt that they were being discriminated against by recent changes to admissions despite being roughly 15% of the county's population and holding over 50% of all the magnet seats

So now we have a lottery

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the three PP's. The reality is that parents want a differentiated MS curriculum (and looking at MCPS math and reading scores, looks like the MS curriculum is not good). Why is all the energy around tinkering with a magnet program (for advanced learners)? Anybody have insights on that. Why not improve academic opportunities at the homeschool level?

Maybe trying to undermine magnet problems and show that they are working for equity is an MCPS smokescreen to hide the real problems. Look at the numbers here. Where does all the billions pf MCPS funding go for god's sake? If they are producing such results. Only 33% passed MCAP Math in spring 2019 and 15% now. Abysmal.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/education/bs-md-maryland-test-scores-20211208-wk5aen5r5bfx5eag2p57pamjcy-story.html

The first Maryland standardized tests given since the beginning of the pandemic show a dramatic drop in student achievement, mirroring a nationwide trend of academic loss, according to preliminary data released by the state education department Tuesday.

Just 15% of the state’s public school students passed math and 35% passed English, the greatest single-year declines on any state tests given in at least the past two decades in Maryland.

The standardized tests, known as the Maryland Comprehensive Assessment Program, are considered difficult to pass. More than half of the state’s public school students regularly fail the tests — given in math and English in grades three through eight and in some high school subjects — in years before the pandemic.

However, the pass rate for math fell by more than half from the 33% who passed in the spring of 2019, the last time the test was given. English scores were down by about 8 percentage points since testing before the pandemic.

You do know that MCPS is not Maryland, right?
These numbers are for the state.
My God

[Anonymous]

Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Selection has always been race blind and of course far fewer of this years magnet students are probably enrolled in cram schools and only 1 in 15 is even in the top 1%...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree with the three PP's. The reality is that parents want a differentiated MS curriculum (and looking at MCPS math and reading scores, looks like the MS curriculum is not good). Why is all the energy around tinkering with a magnet program (for advanced learners)? Anybody have insights on that. Why not improve academic opportunities at the homeschool level?

Maybe trying to undermine magnet problems and show that they are working for equity is an MCPS smokescreen to hide the real problems. Look at the numbers here. Where does all the billions pf MCPS funding go for god's sake? If they are producing such results. Only 33% passed MCAP Math in spring 2019 and 15% now. Abysmal.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/education/bs-md-maryland-test-scores-20211208-wk5aen5r5bfx5eag2p57pamjcy-story.html

The first Maryland standardized tests given since the beginning of the pandemic show a dramatic drop in student achievement, mirroring a nationwide trend of academic loss, according to preliminary data released by the state education department Tuesday.

Just 15% of the state’s public school students passed math and 35% passed English, the greatest single-year declines on any state tests given in at least the past two decades in Maryland.

The standardized tests, known as the Maryland Comprehensive Assessment Program, are considered difficult to pass. More than half of the state’s public school students regularly fail the tests — given in math and English in grades three through eight and in some high school subjects — in years before the pandemic.

However, the pass rate for math fell by more than half from the 33% who passed in the spring of 2019, the last time the test was given. English scores were down by about 8 percentage points since testing before the pandemic.

You do know that MCPS is not Maryland, right?
These numbers are for the state.
My God

Phew. That's good. What are MCPS numbers, do you know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ask what percentage of the magnet seats were gained by students that were enrolled in test prep schools. That is the more meaningful number. I don't believe the seats are parsed out by demographics. Many people do believe they were. Hence the lawsuits. But, again, without numbers on the pipeline between test prep classes and the magnet seats this investigative discussion is missing important details. Those along with how the process seems to have changed several times these past few years.

This debate is pointless without both tranches of data.

Selection has always been race blind and of course far fewer of this years magnet students are probably enrolled in cram schools and only 1 in 15 is even in the top 1%...

That's a good thing, right? That only 1 in 15 is in top 1%? Mission accomplished?