5th Grade CogAT : Number Correct

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, for whatever reason they used the age normed, not the grade normed, which disadvantaged somewhat the kids with fall birthdays (and the red-shirted kids), and advantaged the younger kids in the grade. Since it's an achievement test and not an IQ test, I think it was wildly inappropriate to use the age norms and not the grade norms, as you would not normally think a 5th grader should be compared to a 6th grader in achievement (unless you were prepping that kid outside of school).
I don't care that much, as I didn't want my kid to go to one of those schools, but I just think it's an example of MCPS being sort of irrational about much of this.

You seem to have a very profound opinion for someone that doesn't care that much. And especially for someone who doesn't even want their kid to go to one of those schools.

I’m interested in it as an exercise in applied mathematics and education policy. My kid is at a CES but I wanted kid closer to home for middle school years. And my point wasn’t that it was unfair to red-shirted kids, but rather potentially unfair to kids with September/October birthdays (who were following the rules to start K when they were almost 6). I’d be interested to see the data to see how it really skews...I do wonder how the age norming worked for those kids whose parents sent them early (starting K at 4) as it does not seem like the dataset would be large enough for them. I also wonder about the wisdom of giving parents an incentive to start their kids early...but maybe this is not a big enough incentive for that.

Age norming makes the most sense and is fair. Your 5th grader is compared with other 5th graders with the same birth month. They aren't being compared to 6th graders since they don't take the 5th grade CogAT.

This is NOT true. Read the FAQ. Your kid is compared against other kids their age nationally, regardless of grade or what month they took the test. Then the national AGE BASED results for all MCPS 5th graders are ranked. So yes, your kids score factors in both age and grade and, in the national level, includes comparisons with kids who may have been in a different grade when they took the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, plenty of kids are still getting in.
DD is at a different CES (different total number of students) and at least 6 kids were admitted so far. She's heard there are more but letters just came out in our area.

I do think that because of their goal of having every ES in the mix they are taking lower scoring kids if they are the top lower scoring kids at their school.

Interesting- maybe they changed things from previous years because last year very few students seemed to initially get in from CES if they didn’t qualify for local preference. Maybe they decided to group CES students with kids in their home school, which would make a lot more sense...

I don't think that's it.
Remember this group is THE FIRST group that went through universal screening at some of the centers. (I think some were in a pilot for universal screening the year before but this is the first year where everyone went through it.) It stands to reason that there was a mismatch between last year's 5th graders who got in through the opt-in application process and the new universal screening of the MS magnet program.

But this year the kids in the CESes already went through universal screening to get to where they are. The MS magnets use a similar process as the ES process so it stands to reason that more of them will get in. I know MCPS is still trying to balance for gender, school, ESOL, FARMS so you'll still see fewer admits from the CES than two years ago when the MS process was opt-in but it should be not as bad as it was last year.

My kid was in that pilot for universal screening and is currently a 6th grader. Last year, ~25% of the students in that class of universally-screened CES kids got middle school magnet invitations. It seemed higher than the other CES schools reported here, so your theory about the CES universal screening being more in line with the middle school universal screening might be true.

Wow, 25% does seem high. My child is in a CES (not admitted to either magnet) and I don’t know yet how many from his CES were accepted into the magnet, but I would be surprised if it’s that high. One of my DC’s classmates also was not accepted and if it was 25% I would have accepted that classmate to get in based on what I know of the child.

[Anonymous]

I'm not PP, but I think the 25% from the CES number may be *after* appeals. I know a lot of CES kids got in from the waitlist last year.

There have been a lot of changes in recent years and it can be hard to know which ones are most impactful. Universal screening, being evaluated against cohorts, moving the test to in-school rather than on a Saturday, removing teacher recommendations and at-home essays, and removing the separate tests for the different magnets.

There is SO MUCH that has changed.

For what it is worth, one of the impacts of that change appears to be a bunch of kids getting admitted to both even though they would have expressed a clear preference for one or the other. I suspect that is making the wait list far more fluid than in years past.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not PP, but I think the 25% from the CES number may be *after* appeals. I know a lot of CES kids got in from the waitlist last year.

There have been a lot of changes in recent years and it can be hard to know which ones are most impactful. Universal screening, being evaluated against cohorts, moving the test to in-school rather than on a Saturday, removing teacher recommendations and at-home essays, and removing the separate tests for the different magnets.

There is SO MUCH that has changed.

For what it is worth, one of the impacts of that change appears to be a bunch of kids getting admitted to both even though they would have expressed a clear preference for one or the other. I suspect that is making the wait list far more fluid than in years past.

This is true for my kid. Indicated strong preference to one over the other (selected 9 vs. 1 on the survey), but still got accepted to both. The only conclusion I can get is that survey is indeed not factored in at least for MS magnet selection (I heard there's essay for HS magnet selection, so different story I guess). It might just for data collection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not PP, but I think the 25% from the CES number may be *after* appeals. I know a lot of CES kids got in from the waitlist last year.

There have been a lot of changes in recent years and it can be hard to know which ones are most impactful. Universal screening, being evaluated against cohorts, moving the test to in-school rather than on a Saturday, removing teacher recommendations and at-home essays, and removing the separate tests for the different magnets.

There is SO MUCH that has changed.

For what it is worth, one of the impacts of that change appears to be a bunch of kids getting admitted to both even though they would have expressed a clear preference for one or the other. I suspect that is making the wait list far more fluid than in years past.

This is true for my kid. Indicated strong preference to one over the other (selected 9 vs. 1 on the survey), but still got accepted to both. The only conclusion I can get is that survey is indeed not factored in at least for MS magnet selection (I heard there's essay for HS magnet selection, so different story I guess). It might just for data collection.

I don't recall the letter saying your kid was gong to take the CoGAT indicating that they needed to express a preference between the two programs. Maybe I didn't read it carefully. I'm all for empowering kids, but on a question like that, if it was truly going to make a difference, I would hope parents themselves would have some input for a kid (only age 10 or 11) who qualified for both. I personally believe (but can point to nothing concrete) that it's informational for the county only.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not PP, but I think the 25% from the CES number may be *after* appeals. I know a lot of CES kids got in from the waitlist last year.

There have been a lot of changes in recent years and it can be hard to know which ones are most impactful. Universal screening, being evaluated against cohorts, moving the test to in-school rather than on a Saturday, removing teacher recommendations and at-home essays, and removing the separate tests for the different magnets.

There is SO MUCH that has changed.

For what it is worth, one of the impacts of that change appears to be a bunch of kids getting admitted to both even though they would have expressed a clear preference for one or the other. I suspect that is making the wait list far more fluid than in years past.

This is true for my kid. Indicated strong preference to one over the other (selected 9 vs. 1 on the survey), but still got accepted to both. The only conclusion I can get is that survey is indeed not factored in at least for MS magnet selection (I heard there's essay for HS magnet selection, so different story I guess). It might just for data collection.

I don't recall the letter saying your kid was gong to take the CoGAT indicating that they needed to express a preference between the two programs. Maybe I didn't read it carefully. I'm all for empowering kids, but on a question like that, if it was truly going to make a difference, I would hope parents themselves would have some input for a kid (only age 10 or 11) who qualified for both. I personally believe (but can point to nothing concrete) that it's informational for the county only.

No, on the test day of CoGAT, kids were asked to take a survey, indicating their preferences and answer questions like what makes a good magnet candidates. Something like this. Those questions were not factored in for individual selection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not PP, but I think the 25% from the CES number may be *after* appeals. I know a lot of CES kids got in from the waitlist last year.

There have been a lot of changes in recent years and it can be hard to know which ones are most impactful. Universal screening, being evaluated against cohorts, moving the test to in-school rather than on a Saturday, removing teacher recommendations and at-home essays, and removing the separate tests for the different magnets.

There is SO MUCH that has changed.

For what it is worth, one of the impacts of that change appears to be a bunch of kids getting admitted to both even though they would have expressed a clear preference for one or the other. I suspect that is making the wait list far more fluid than in years past.

This is true for my kid. Indicated strong preference to one over the other (selected 9 vs. 1 on the survey), but still got accepted to both. The only conclusion I can get is that survey is indeed not factored in at least for MS magnet selection (I heard there's essay for HS magnet selection, so different story I guess). It might just for data collection.

I don't recall the letter saying your kid was gong to take the CoGAT indicating that they needed to express a preference between the two programs. Maybe I didn't read it carefully. I'm all for empowering kids, but on a question like that, if it was truly going to make a difference, I would hope parents themselves would have some input for a kid (only age 10 or 11) who qualified for both. I personally believe (but can point to nothing concrete) that it's informational for the county only.

No, on the test day of CoGAT, kids were asked to take a survey, indicating their preferences and answer questions like what makes a good magnet candidates. Something like this. Those questions were not factored in for individual selection.

They were not asked about the individual programs. They were asked to rate their interest in math, science, computer science, humanities etc individually. My kid said he rated math high but science neutral for example. He still got in to TPMS and waitlisted at Eastern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s really interesting seeing parents rob children of their childhood to get into these silly school programs which will have minimal impact on the landscape of their future. It’s literally the difference between a inner or outer cubicle in the middle management farm house on the 7th floor.
By the time these kids get through high school they are burned out.

So sour grape. As an ordinary man with such a narrow view of the world, you'll never understand what self-motivation and self-constraints mean.

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not PP, but I think the 25% from the CES number may be *after* appeals. I know a lot of CES kids got in from the waitlist last year.

There have been a lot of changes in recent years and it can be hard to know which ones are most impactful. Universal screening, being evaluated against cohorts, moving the test to in-school rather than on a Saturday, removing teacher recommendations and at-home essays, and removing the separate tests for the different magnets.

There is SO MUCH that has changed.

For what it is worth, one of the impacts of that change appears to be a bunch of kids getting admitted to both even though they would have expressed a clear preference for one or the other. I suspect that is making the wait list far more fluid than in years past.

This is true for my kid. Indicated strong preference to one over the other (selected 9 vs. 1 on the survey), but still got accepted to both. The only conclusion I can get is that survey is indeed not factored in at least for MS magnet selection (I heard there's essay for HS magnet selection, so different story I guess). It might just for data collection.

I don't recall the letter saying your kid was gong to take the CoGAT indicating that they needed to express a preference between the two programs. Maybe I didn't read it carefully. I'm all for empowering kids, but on a question like that, if it was truly going to make a difference, I would hope parents themselves would have some input for a kid (only age 10 or 11) who qualified for both. I personally believe (but can point to nothing concrete) that it's informational for the county only.

No, on the test day of CoGAT, kids were asked to take a survey, indicating their preferences and answer questions like what makes a good magnet candidates. Something like this. Those questions were not factored in for individual selection.

They were not asked about the individual programs. They were asked to rate their interest in math, science, computer science, humanities etc individually. My kid said he rated math high but science neutral for example. He still got in to TPMS and waitlisted at Eastern.

My child apparently ranked one program a 10 and the other a 2 (why a two? ask a 10 year old), and then provided a detailed answer about her existing interests around the first subject area. She was waitlisted at the one for which she'd expressed a preference, and admitted to the one she'd given a 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not PP, but I think the 25% from the CES number may be *after* appeals. I know a lot of CES kids got in from the waitlist last year.

There have been a lot of changes in recent years and it can be hard to know which ones are most impactful. Universal screening, being evaluated against cohorts, moving the test to in-school rather than on a Saturday, removing teacher recommendations and at-home essays, and removing the separate tests for the different magnets.

There is SO MUCH that has changed.

For what it is worth, one of the impacts of that change appears to be a bunch of kids getting admitted to both even though they would have expressed a clear preference for one or the other. I suspect that is making the wait list far more fluid than in years past.

This is true for my kid. Indicated strong preference to one over the other (selected 9 vs. 1 on the survey), but still got accepted to both. The only conclusion I can get is that survey is indeed not factored in at least for MS magnet selection (I heard there's essay for HS magnet selection, so different story I guess). It might just for data collection.

I don't recall the letter saying your kid was gong to take the CoGAT indicating that they needed to express a preference between the two programs. Maybe I didn't read it carefully. I'm all for empowering kids, but on a question like that, if it was truly going to make a difference, I would hope parents themselves would have some input for a kid (only age 10 or 11) who qualified for both. I personally believe (but can point to nothing concrete) that it's informational for the county only.

No, on the test day of CoGAT, kids were asked to take a survey, indicating their preferences and answer questions like what makes a good magnet candidates. Something like this. Those questions were not factored in for individual selection.

They were not asked about the individual programs. They were asked to rate their interest in math, science, computer science, humanities etc individually. My kid said he rated math high but science neutral for example. He still got in to TPMS and waitlisted at Eastern.

My child apparently ranked one program a 10 and the other a 2 (why a two? ask a 10 year old), and then provided a detailed answer about her existing interests around the first subject area. She was waitlisted at the one for which she'd expressed a preference, and admitted to the one she'd given a 2.

How did she do that when asked about subjects separately not about each program?

[Anonymous]

I wonder if the first five posters on page one got acceptance letters. Did they post follow up?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not PP, but I think the 25% from the CES number may be *after* appeals. I know a lot of CES kids got in from the waitlist last year.

There have been a lot of changes in recent years and it can be hard to know which ones are most impactful. Universal screening, being evaluated against cohorts, moving the test to in-school rather than on a Saturday, removing teacher recommendations and at-home essays, and removing the separate tests for the different magnets.

There is SO MUCH that has changed.

For what it is worth, one of the impacts of that change appears to be a bunch of kids getting admitted to both even though they would have expressed a clear preference for one or the other. I suspect that is making the wait list far more fluid than in years past.

This is true for my kid. Indicated strong preference to one over the other (selected 9 vs. 1 on the survey), but still got accepted to both. The only conclusion I can get is that survey is indeed not factored in at least for MS magnet selection (I heard there's essay for HS magnet selection, so different story I guess). It might just for data collection.

I don't recall the letter saying your kid was gong to take the CoGAT indicating that they needed to express a preference between the two programs. Maybe I didn't read it carefully. I'm all for empowering kids, but on a question like that, if it was truly going to make a difference, I would hope parents themselves would have some input for a kid (only age 10 or 11) who qualified for both. I personally believe (but can point to nothing concrete) that it's informational for the county only.

No, on the test day of CoGAT, kids were asked to take a survey, indicating their preferences and answer questions like what makes a good magnet candidates. Something like this. Those questions were not factored in for individual selection.

They were not asked about the individual programs. They were asked to rate their interest in math, science, computer science, humanities etc individually. My kid said he rated math high but science neutral for example. He still got in to TPMS and waitlisted at Eastern.

My child apparently ranked one program a 10 and the other a 2 (why a two? ask a 10 year old), and then provided a detailed answer about her existing interests around the first subject area. She was waitlisted at the one for which she'd expressed a preference, and admitted to the one she'd given a 2.

How did she do that when asked about subjects separately not about each program?

I wasn't in the room, I'm just going by what she said when she got home. She also said one of her friends put 10s for both, so there is a consistent story (at least from two tweens) that the topics were grouped. But, again, we're all playing a game of telephone with kids who still sleep with stuffed animals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if the first five posters on page one got acceptance letters. Did they post follow up?

I’m assuming they did. I didn’t post, but my DC had similar scores and was admitted to both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not PP, but I think the 25% from the CES number may be *after* appeals. I know a lot of CES kids got in from the waitlist last year.

I am the PP and I was told that 25% of the CES kids, who had been part of the pilot universal screening for the CES, had received offers before any appeals/waitlist process (I was asking the administration for some information they might have about our home MS for comparison and decision-making, and they said they expected to have a lot of these conversations with parents because so many kids had been offered magnet slots). I do know a few more that got in from the waitlist later in the spring, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if the first five posters on page one got acceptance letters. Did they post follow up?

I was the second poster on this thread (with lower scores than the others in the first five). My kid was recommended for TPMS and waitlisted for Eastern.