How often do you think applicants lie about their race?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I was in college I had a student job in the registrars office. One of the things I dealt with were transcripts, including for law school. This wasn't quite a T14 law school, but close. Anyway, I handled the transcripts so I got a a sense of things.

It is shocking how easy it is for black students to get into a decent law school. The LSAT scores aren't remotely close to white or Asian students. This kind of thing always seems a little academic, but when you actually see the discrepancies it is breathtaking.Totally different planets.

Being black is the golden ticket for law school admissions at least. And that sucks in a lot of different ways. But nobody should be surprised if people mess around with the race box. If you have a grandparent from Vietnam, well, that sucks for you. If you have a grandparent from Haiti, winner.

Colleges set the rules. People are going to play the game. When it is so much easier for people with black or hispanic ancestry to get into schools, it's no surprise that people start looking for a useful grandparent.

And yet with this golden ticket we are still not seeing an over representation of black students in law school.

[Anonymous]

I wonder about this in my own life. My grandmother was from Syria. I am 1/4 middle eastern and my kids are 1/8 which isn’t much. But we still speak the language and make the food and practice the culture. They are still in elementary school but I do write middle eastern/MENA on forms in doctors offices (this is mostly bc I have a syndrome that affects ppl of Middle eastern descent, which I was not diagnosed with until I mentioned this heritage in passing to my Dr). I’m not sure if I would put it on their college applications but it does sometimes burn my balls to see people with absolutely no cultural connection getting a leg up. My lifelong best friend and I did not know until she put it on her college application…she told me she’d never been open about it bc she was embarrassed.

[Anonymous]

My lifelong best friend *was Hispanic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder about this in my own life. My grandmother was from Syria. I am 1/4 middle eastern and my kids are 1/8 which isn’t much. But we still speak the language and make the food and practice the culture. They are still in elementary school but I do write middle eastern/MENA on forms in doctors offices (this is mostly bc I have a syndrome that affects ppl of Middle eastern descent, which I was not diagnosed with until I mentioned this heritage in passing to my Dr). I’m not sure if I would put it on their college applications but it does sometimes burn my balls to see people with absolutely no cultural connection getting a leg up. My lifelong best friend and I did not know until she put it on her college application…she told me she’d never been open about it bc she was embarrassed.

Do mena kids get aa? Honest question

Also Are you alawite?

Imagine bashar al Assad getting AA

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

Yet it is the Asian students who are suing over considering race in college admissions.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

Your knowledge of the composition of admissions staffs is way off base. It is not at all similar to the DCUM crowd, with deliberate efforts to choose a very diverse group. Many of them are recent grads of the school where they work and care deeply about making sure it maintains the excellence they love so much that they want to try to convince others to attend.

They are mentally and ideologically exactly the same as the DCUM crowd - educated urban liberals. And like the DCUM crowd, they consider some types of "diversity" better than others. For whatever reason, black diversity is held to improve the "excellence" of these schools, but Asian diversity does not contribute to the "excellence" of these schools.

I'm confused how you can say that when 23.7% of Harvard freshman who report only one race are Asian, but only 6.1% of the US population is Asian. That's almost four times the representation in the general population and seems to value Asian diversity pretty highly. This is as contrasted with blacks, who make up 10.1% of the freshmen and 13.6% of the general population. They seem to be valued less than they ought to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the data:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/577722-more-than-a-third-of-white-students-lie-about-their/

My guess is that they mostly put Hispanic.

I thought Hispanic % was said to be pretty high at some of the colleges.

Yeah, a friend of my son has an Hispanic mother ... whose family has been in the United States since the late 1800s. The father is a WASP who attended Columbia and HBS. Meanwhile the boy is checking the Hispanic box and applying to Harvard and Yale while my slightly-better-stats kid is focused on, like, Villanova.

It's so frustrating to see people abuse the system. I wish there was a way for colleges to distinguish (and who knows; maybe they do.)

Simple

Latinos should not get any affirmative action

It should be for ados blacks only.

Latinos scam this so hard.

I ask for test scores and transcripts when I hire and I definitely am more willing to bend for black kids (it’s pretty easy also to tell ados from 1st and 2nd gen African/Dominicans when you see their names, ask where they went to high school, make small talk about hobbies, music, sports during the interview process etc)

You sound like a nativist bigot.

Latinos have actually struggled for centuries here, you know the US stole their lands in many states? And their language has been forbidden for decades in states like CA?

If blacks and Native Americans get AA, Latinos deserve it too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Nobody gets admitted because of race. It's not a bump. Don't believe it. If there's a toss up between equals and a college realizes their students all are alike, then maybe on occasion given all other things equal someone might get a second look, but all things are equal so it's just the luck of teh draw at that point. Even lying about about race for a scholarship only puts you in the hunt, you're still competing against others on stats. Nobody gets a scholarship just because they are of a certain race, they simply might qualify for it. Even the most diverse colleges fall many percentages points under the representative average of most races, especially Black and Brown.

Total BS. Race is critical in admissions to top 20.

Yet there are limited spots. Everyone believes this check box works magic, but even if an applicant can check the box (name your definition) there are far, far more applicants than seats. If the box disappears it won't make way for all the applicants who's parents are here whining. There will be just as many DCUM many rejections as ever. There are something like 300 black students in the Harvard freshman class. It doesn't matter what your kid has done, there are definitely 300 AA kids in the country who are smarter and more accomplished, that is not controversial. Still, if those students are somehow pushed aside, there are still thousands of applicants better than yours. Not gonna happen.

So:
1) 300 African Americans at Harvard are smarter and more accomplished than anyone else in the country?
2) And if yes, why have their historic stats continued to show standardized test scores approximately 200 points lower on average than Whites and Asians?

I think you meant that SOME of the AA applicants are just as accomplished as other applicants, but not on average.

Since their inception almost a century ago, the tests have been instruments of racism and a biased system. Decades of research demonstrate that Black students ,experience bias from standardized tests administered from early childhood through college.

"We still think there’s something wrong with the kids rather than recognizing their something wrong with the tests," Ibram X. Kendi of the Antiracist Research & Policy Center at Boston University and author of How to be an Antiracist said in October 2020. "Standardized tests have become the most effective racist weapon ever devised to objectively degrade Black and Brown minds and legally exclude their bodies from prestigious schools.

So you totally buy into the notion that all differences are due to racism? I don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the data:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/577722-more-than-a-third-of-white-students-lie-about-their/

My guess is that they mostly put Hispanic.

I thought Hispanic % was said to be pretty high at some of the colleges.

Yeah, a friend of my son has an Hispanic mother ... whose family has been in the United States since the late 1800s. The father is a WASP who attended Columbia and HBS. Meanwhile the boy is checking the Hispanic box and applying to Harvard and Yale while my slightly-better-stats kid is focused on, like, Villanova.

It's so frustrating to see people abuse the system. I wish there was a way for colleges to distinguish (and who knows; maybe they do.)

Simple

Latinos should not get any affirmative action

It should be for ados blacks only.

Latinos scam this so hard.

I ask for test scores and transcripts when I hire and I definitely am more willing to bend for black kids (it’s pretty easy also to tell ados from 1st and 2nd gen African/Dominicans when you see their names, ask where they went to high school, make small talk about hobbies, music, sports during the interview process etc)

You sound like a nativist bigot.

Latinos have actually struggled for centuries here, you know the US stole their lands in many states? And their language has been forbidden for decades in states like CA?

If blacks and Native Americans get AA, Latinos deserve it too.

The United States did not steal land from Hispanics. Learn history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:A friend of my daughter's is claiming to be Hispanic on his application, which technically he can get away with because he is half Cuban, but he does not in any way at all look Hispanic, nor is he culturally Hispanic. It's a MASSIVE stretch.

My children are half-Latino. I a single Caucasian woman and used donor sperm to conceive and the donor is Latino. I've always felt that since my kids aren't culturally Hispanic/Latino, it would be disingenuous to identify them that way on school forms, so I haven't thus far. Am I doing them a disservice by not checking the box as Latino?

Yes. They are legitimately Latino.

No. Latino is not genetic. It is 100% cultural. You can be adopted into a Latino family and identify Latino.

No. If you have Hispanic genes you are unquestionably “of Hispanic origin” even if raised “culturally white”.

That's incorrect...sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the data:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/577722-more-than-a-third-of-white-students-lie-about-their/

My guess is that they mostly put Hispanic.

I thought Hispanic % was said to be pretty high at some of the colleges.

Yeah, a friend of my son has an Hispanic mother ... whose family has been in the United States since the late 1800s. The father is a WASP who attended Columbia and HBS. Meanwhile the boy is checking the Hispanic box and applying to Harvard and Yale while my slightly-better-stats kid is focused on, like, Villanova.

It's so frustrating to see people abuse the system. I wish there was a way for colleges to distinguish (and who knows; maybe they do.)

Simple

Latinos should not get any affirmative action

It should be for ados blacks only.

Latinos scam this so hard.

I ask for test scores and transcripts when I hire and I definitely am more willing to bend for black kids (it’s pretty easy also to tell ados from 1st and 2nd gen African/Dominicans when you see their names, ask where they went to high school, make small talk about hobbies, music, sports during the interview process etc)

You sound like a nativist bigot.

Latinos have actually struggled for centuries here, you know the US stole their lands in many states? And their language has been forbidden for decades in states like CA?

If blacks and Native Americans get AA, Latinos deserve it too.

All of the stolen land was technically Native American lands. If Latinos were occupying those lands it's because they stole it from the Natives.

Assuming we choose to humor you.. what about the Chinese who were indentured to work the railroads and suffered periodic pogroms when the Whites got jealous of their success? What about the Japanese whose homes and assets were stolen from them and made to live in internment camps? What about their descendants? What about Indians who were not allowed to become citizens nor own land in the US in the early part of the last century? See how the slop gets slippery? Where does this stop?

BTW, none of the Asians are asking for any sh*t like this because they are successful despite these hurdles thanks to their mindset. Something sorely lacking with people asking for handouts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in college I had a student job in the registrars office. One of the things I dealt with were transcripts, including for law school. This wasn't quite a T14 law school, but close. Anyway, I handled the transcripts so I got a a sense of things.

It is shocking how easy it is for black students to get into a decent law school. The LSAT scores aren't remotely close to white or Asian students. This kind of thing always seems a little academic, but when you actually see the discrepancies it is breathtaking.Totally different planets.

Being black is the golden ticket for law school admissions at least. And that sucks in a lot of different ways. But nobody should be surprised if people mess around with the race box. If you have a grandparent from Vietnam, well, that sucks for you. If you have a grandparent from Haiti, winner.

Colleges set the rules. People are going to play the game. When it is so much easier for people with black or hispanic ancestry to get into schools, it's no surprise that people start looking for a useful grandparent.

And yet with this golden ticket we are still not seeing an over representation of black students in law school.

And whose problem is that?

[Anonymous]

On the one hand, we are told that race is a fiction. On the other, it's possible to lie about race. Which is it? How about we just stop asking for it and tracking it? Here's another doozy: you are now called a bigot if you disagree with the catechism that "trans women are women," and, by association, that gender is a fiction. So, my daughter could put "male" down for gender, and that would be fine. But, she can't put "black" down for race, because that would be racist, even though in the first case, she has no Y chromosome, and in the second, race is some subjective category that has to do with melanin content. I'm not trying to be glib; but seriously, this is all totally absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the data:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/577722-more-than-a-third-of-white-students-lie-about-their/

My guess is that they mostly put Hispanic.

I thought Hispanic % was said to be pretty high at some of the colleges.

Yeah, a friend of my son has an Hispanic mother ... whose family has been in the United States since the late 1800s. The father is a WASP who attended Columbia and HBS. Meanwhile the boy is checking the Hispanic box and applying to Harvard and Yale while my slightly-better-stats kid is focused on, like, Villanova.

It's so frustrating to see people abuse the system. I wish there was a way for colleges to distinguish (and who knows; maybe they do.)

Simple

Latinos should not get any affirmative action

It should be for ados blacks only.

Latinos scam this so hard.

I ask for test scores and transcripts when I hire and I definitely am more willing to bend for black kids (it’s pretty easy also to tell ados from 1st and 2nd gen African/Dominicans when you see their names, ask where they went to high school, make small talk about hobbies, music, sports during the interview process etc)

You sound like a nativist bigot.

Latinos have actually struggled for centuries here, you know the US stole their lands in many states? And their language has been forbidden for decades in states like CA?

If blacks and Native Americans get AA, Latinos deserve it too.

Really? What discrimination or hardships have Latinos faced that is any different from what Jews, Irish, Italians, and Poles faced when they came to this country? In fact, those groups probably had it worse. They couldn’t “oprima numero dos” to get everything translated into their language. Plus, Latino is not a race and not even really a cohesive ethnicity. And, for purposes of affirmative action, it encompasses some privileged people of European ancestry whose predecessors took a detour to South America before coming to the US. Total BS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in college I had a student job in the registrars office. One of the things I dealt with were transcripts, including for law school. This wasn't quite a T14 law school, but close. Anyway, I handled the transcripts so I got a a sense of things.

It is shocking how easy it is for black students to get into a decent law school. The LSAT scores aren't remotely close to white or Asian students. This kind of thing always seems a little academic, but when you actually see the discrepancies it is breathtaking.Totally different planets.

Being black is the golden ticket for law school admissions at least. And that sucks in a lot of different ways. But nobody should be surprised if people mess around with the race box. If you have a grandparent from Vietnam, well, that sucks for you. If you have a grandparent from Haiti, winner.

Colleges set the rules. People are going to play the game. When it is so much easier for people with black or hispanic ancestry to get into schools, it's no surprise that people start looking for a useful grandparent.

And yet with this golden ticket we are still not seeing an over representation of black students in law school.

Imagine how dismal k12 schools must be in all Dem-run districts "serving" black kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On the one hand, we are told that race is a fiction. On the other, it's possible to lie about race. Which is it? How about we just stop asking for it and tracking it? Here's another doozy: you are now called a bigot if you disagree with the catechism that "trans women are women," and, by association, that gender is a fiction. So, my daughter could put "male" down for gender, and that would be fine. But, she can't put "black" down for race, because that would be racist, even though in the first case, she has no Y chromosome, and in the second, race is some subjective category that has to do with melanin content. I'm not trying to be glib; but seriously, this is all totally absurd.

It IS totally absurd, so the most logical thing is to play the dumb game.